Both: Do you think social class is a factor when it comes to the types of people who transition?

submitted by worried19 from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm a younger generation trans woman. Maybe I could shed some light on this discussion.

I'd have to agree with /u/circlingmyownvoid here. I don't think anyone is "being transitioned". It's a matter of whether or not one is permitted to do so. It took me a year of therapy before I could see a doctor who was aware of trans issues. It took me almost two years to even be able to start hormone therapy. There is certainly a lot of red tape involved, at least here in the US. I understand it may be different in other countries or regions.

As for socio-economic status, I think it's very apparent that this can influence one's decision to transition. I don't think it influences one's identity as a trans person, but rather one's ability to put a label to that identity. For example: I didn't know transgender people were a thing when I was 8 years old and younger, but that didn't eliminate the fact that's who I was, and who I am.

Perhaps if I was oblivious to trans issues for the rest of my life (due to some kind of social, economic, or political barrier), I wouldn't have pursued transition. It's hard to say either way, but the mental and emotional sense of my identity would still exist nonetheless.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm actually talking about young children here.

The climate is very different now. There are laws being passed stating that if a preteen child says they "feel like" the opposite sex, they must be affirmed. Anything else is considered conversion therapy. Children are brought to gender therapists as young as age 3 and labeled transgender. There was a couple in Connecticut last year who legally transitioned their four-year-old male child. They got a new birth certificate designating the child as female and permanently designated the child the opposite sex. We're talking about very young kids.

This seems to be a very Western, very white, very middle-to-upper middle class phenomenon. I've read many articles about these children. Few of the articles mention bodily distress. There's no waiting period to transition a child. Most recently there was a 10 year old natal female child who has been labeled a "trans boy" who starred in a movie that valorized a father kidnapping and taking his female child into the wilderness because the mother would not affirm the child as a boy.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh gotcha. Well, in that case I'd have to agree with you.

To confirm: it seems you are taking issue with the ability for extremely young children to have easy access to permanent gender transition treatment, not an issue with very young children concluding that they are transgender. Is this correct?

I do take a lot of issue with extremely young children having access to the permanent aspects of transition. Things such as legal documentation isn't permanent, and can be reverted, so I don't really take issue with that in particular.

Is there data showing an uptick in very, very young children who are transitioning at higher rates than in previous years? If so, I'd be interested to see that. I know there are a few stories of parents allowing their very young child to transition through permanent means, but I haven't noticed like a massive uptick in this kind of thing happening.

As for socio-economic class, I still stand by my original perspective. Children coming to terms with being transgender can absolutely be impacted by that, but it wouldn't make the mental and emotional idea of that's who you are go away, regardless of whether you have a label for it.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I object to the labeling of extremely young children. It's fine for children to experiment. But kids are being told they are the opposite sex. That they have a "girl brain in a boy body" or vice versa. There's no questioning once you've told a child over and over they are the sex they want to be. Parents and doctors are shutting the door on kids who are in elementary school or even younger and putting them on the track to medicalization.

It's not uncommon for GNC young children to want to live as the other sex. I'm a prime example of a GNC child who completely rejected femininity by age 5. I had violent, screaming tantrums over dresses. I demanded my hair be cut short like my brother's. I would only wear boys' clothing. And I was happy to live my life with my brother and my fellow male friends doing "boy things" and being mistaken for a boy. I had no distress over my vagina. Hell, I don't think I was even aware I had a vagina at that age, and I doubt the vast majority of these female children being labeled "trans boys" are aware of their vaginas, either. I don't think any of these kids are suicidal over having female bodies. Yet they're being transitioned because they don't "feel like" girls and prefer to live similarly to the opposite sex.

I'm a GNC adult woman now. I'm not "cis" because I don't believe in gender identity. But I have never had any bodily distress and putting me on the track to medical transition as a young child or teenager would have been a huge mistake. I live my life similarly to a man, but that doesn't make me a man. I'm still female no matter how I prefer to dress or wear my hair.

Is there data showing an uptick in very, very young children who are transitioning at higher rates than in previous years?

Considering this did not happen prior to the mid 2000s, I'd say there's a huge uptick. This is what I think is being impacted by social class. It only happens to young children in middle class or rich families, and nearly all the families are white. Almost all American or Canadian, perhaps some in England. Some of these families may be well meaning, but others have troubling histories, like Coy Mathis and Kai Shappley's families.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I object to the labeling of extremely young children. It's fine for children to experiment. But kids are being told they are the opposite sex

I object to this as well. It should be clear that children shouldn't be told they are the opposite sex, as that wouldn't be based in any kind of reality. However, I have no issue if a child finds that they are trans, and wishes to change their gender identity.

It's not uncommon for GNC young children to want to live as the other sex

Yeah this is absolutely a fair point. I think there's many issues regarding how we determine if someone is trans or not especially when they are young. This isn't a new issue though. The entire basis for things like "gender identity disorder" was rooted, essentially, in sexist stereotypes, which can lead to the side effect of GNC children thinking they need to transition because they're "different" or defy gendered norms.

On the other hand, this basis of gender transition in sexism causes problems for trans people as well. It took me much longer for my therapist to recommend any kind of transition treatment for me because I didn't "exhibit signs" like having stereotypical hobbies and interests typically associated with women.

All that being said, I do think that's an issue that can be addressed by placing a spotlight on more GNC (both trans and non-trans) people rather than those who "conform". This way, people can see that trans women, for example, don't always need to exhibit signs for stereotypical femininity.

I'm a GNC adult woman now. I'm not "cis" because I don't believe in gender identity

I support the idea that gender is all about identity. But I do understand where you are coming from on this issue. When we have people saying being a woman is "having a pink brain," that's a major issue we need to address, because pink and blue brains simply don't exist. We also have trans women claiming they can have periods, or rooting their entire identity in stereotypes and I find that incredibly alarming. Not only is it purely sexist, but it also blurs the lines between sex and gendered stereotypes which I cannot stand behind. It also leads to such complications like young girls being told that because they don't like dresses that they must be a boy. It's certainly an issue with a need to be addressed right away.

Considering this did not happen prior to the mid 2000s, I'd say there's a huge uptick.

I think that there's a few confounding factors we have to consider here though. For example, trans people really didn't start hitting the mainstream until right around that time anyway. Who knows what was happening before this media awareness came about? We can look at specific instances of this occurring, which often become sensationalized by headlines (as does every trans issue now it seems, sigh), but this doesn't constitute a positive upward trend. We can make a guess at best here about an uptick in these instances happening, and certainly social class plays a role (as I agreed with earlier). We'd need to analyze actual data, such as literature and media from pre-2000s and analyze it with that or today. But even that would simply show a positive correlation with media awareness of trans people and a rise in these cases with young children, not a causal relationship.