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Wpath and the eunuch archives by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

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I don't really think any of the GC posters here are "nice" traditionally save maybe worried.

There were more nice people when the sub was more active

Wpath and the eunuch archives by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

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I stand by my opinion that primarily she created a toxic environment that the qt posters who WOULD have been interested in posting here didn't want to deal with her being given free reign.

Speaking as a QT the only posters who were so hostile that they would have discouraged my participation are gone now (flippyking and adungitit). And biologyisreal did delete many of flippykings comments when i reported them. I also talked to houseplant, lovesloane, and marktwainiac and it was fine. Not the nicest people but it feels patronizing to suggest QT needs people to be nice to us to participate. I stopped participating because I was told this is strictly a debate sub and not a place to ask questions about GC views, so I started lurking instead. My advice would be to broaden the scope of the sub as most QT are probably not used to debating and its super overwhelming coming in and having 7 different people responding to your posts/comments expecting answers, and everytime you respond you get 7 more answers, etc. There are no places on the internet where we can even just talk to each other openly. That might be a good start for QT.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Just so everyone knows this is the comment that flippyking has decided was me "mocking" someone:

Me: GC, what makes a person trans?

GC: You tell us what makes someone trans.

Me: But I want to know what you think? Why dont you make another thread asking what I think?

Like I dont even think this needs commentary. The idea that Im "mocking" someone here is actually unhinged. Edit: Keep in mind I had already said elsewhere in the thread what I think makes someone trans and was specifically responding to the idea that I shouldnt ask GC because "theyre not the ones who came up with the concept"

Ive already talked about the majority of the rest of your comment so Im not going to do it again

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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That was in response to someone saying the comments wouldn’t be consistent so why was I asking? And me saying I expected them to not be (and they weren’t, they were very varied). Reading one more comment back would have given you that context. I never said or implied what you think I did

Edit: thanks for giving everyone an example of what I was talking about when I said I was told to stick to debating

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I haven’t deleted any comments, only two posts I thought were inappropriate. Show me the comment?

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Elsewhere you stated you are surprised at the consistency of the GC view (I'm paraphrasing)

No I didnt. I never said anything like this.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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It really only matters to me and my curiosity. I did not expect you all to have an organized and agreed upon definition, I expected to hear a variety of answers. Judging by the hostility to my questions/discussion topics, it doesn't seem like this is an appropriate place for my own personal learning. Its a shame because there aren't a lot of places on the internet that I can interact with "the other side" but Ill keep looking I guess.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Geez. I thought asking questions to understand the other side better was welcome. My mistake.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Do you think these differences are significant enough to make them the more important classifying feature (in other words, is this more important than physical sex?)

Yes though I dont know why brains arent considered "physical"

Would you be willing to restrict legal sex change and access to women's spaces on the basis of neurological sex, assuming it could be measured?

It can and has been measured though I think restricting gender affirming care based on brain scans would gatekeep it to the point where it would be a privilege of the wealthy.

I think a lot of trans women have bog standard male psychology.

What is "male psychology"? Why is "sexed psychology" meaningful but neurological sex is not?

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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You should try to get a handle on what we know.

Thats what Im doing?

I have no interest in what you believe

Wow good thing youre on a debate sub then haha

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I'm asking what would make you call another person "trans"

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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So there isnt anything that would make you call another person "trans"?

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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You tell us what makes someone trans.

But I want to know what you think? Why dont you make another thread asking what I think?

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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they are still their biological sex and that takes precedence over everything as far as I am concerned

Over EVERYTHING or over gender identity?

What do you and the QT community think makes someone trans?

Someone with a neurological sex that doesnt match their assigned sex at birth

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Sure there’s agp and hsts and tucute and transmed etc, but at the end of the day if you’re attempting to "transition" and insisting on using the wrong spaces and forcing pronouns etc on others- trans.

So if someone transitions but doesnt insist on using the "wrong" spaces you dont consider that person trans?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Then you refuse to give an example of what a meaningful number of attacks is

No, I already did more than once, asking me over and over isn't going to get you a different answer.

my claims do not need one as proof

Okay well I think this says it all. Thanks for being clear about it.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Being behind a paywall doesn’t make a source illegitimate. As for my other source, if an internet search is illegitimate then are you admitting the result of your own internet search is illegitimate? That’s all your “sources” were too? Why are the standards so much higher for me than they are for you? You pick apart my sources even though yours are worse than mine, at best they’re on par with mine, but you didn’t provide even a paywalled study so.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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So you have no data to back up your position? Lets just be very clear about this

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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And it’s You that won’t move on. Not me.

Its actually pretty weird that youre acting like Im just talking to myself here. Literally all Im doing is responding to your points. If i wont "move on" then neither will you.

Where’s the empathy from trans people for everyone else?

Maybe this point isnt being addressed (again) because its just a strawman? Like do you really want me to say yeah youre so right trans people have no empathy for anyone else you sure got me? Believing that bathroom policies should reflect data means we dont have empathy for others youre so right?

Plus I already addressed it anyway when I first responded. You just got weirdly hung up on the other thing.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Im just responding to your points. You want the last word so badly that you want to make your points and then not receive any response apparently.

Edit: as for the actual debate I have asked for data many times and havent gotten any, so if you can provide that maybe we can continue.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Actually what would matter would be when I saw your comment asking for Links. And by the time I saw your comment asking for links, you’d been provided with several. So from what I could see, you had been given sources by the time I saw your comment

You asked: "HP gave you several sources. You really need more?" and I answered that I hadnt been given any when I asked. Its okay to admit that you were wrong, its weird to double down on the fact that you SAW the comment later when that really doesnt matter when youre accusing me of ignoring sources I had already gotten.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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How am I not the one letting it go when Im just responding to the comments youre making? It takes two to have a conversation.

I already said you can be right if you need to be

Uh Im right because you can objectively look at the order of the comments and see that Im right

By now you’ve had time to read her links

And I responded to that comment. Seriously this is the weirdest hill for you to die on.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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If i have to go back pages it usually means those comments are older than mine

......yeah but the question isnt whether their comment is older than yours, its whether its older than my comment asking you for sources?

Regardless of when the links were linked- she did link them before we started going back and forth now.

Yes and I was specifically commenting on the fact that your response to my asking for sources was that someone else had already provided me sources and how many more did I need? Do you really not understand my point here? I didnt ask for sources AFTER they had already provided sources.

I’m not making a scientific or academic claim. I’m referencing an incident(s).

Yeah this is crystal clear.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Yeah I did, I said no attacks are acceptable, but I also said theres no way to prevent all attacks.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I'd think youd have more empathy for people who might not understand jokes then.

I already answered this question definitively.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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....do you want me to take screenshots for you? What a weird hill to die on

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I have autism, I often dont understand jokes.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Im sorry- isn’t our other comment thread talking about the several sources that HP linked?

Yeah, so if you go to the subs homepage and click "comments" you will be able to see all the comments in the order in which they are posted. You have to go back to at least page two to see the relevant comments but you can see that I clearly asked for sources before being given any.

Lets just be very clear here though: you have no actual data, right? You have cherry picked anecdotes, and thats it.

Eta- i went to link but actually a few of these were already linked by HP, so clearly you didn’t read what she linked or you did but don’t know how to argue around it

I already addressed that comment.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Do I have a study proving what specifically?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Yeah if youre going to ignore what I say and make up stuff then yeah this is a pretty big waste of time.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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No, I’m saying HP’s comment with all of the links looks to have been made before you asked me for sources

It wasnt.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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She also said people were screwed over and that was the specific part I responded to and asked for evidence of, you can tell because thats the part I quoted.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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This is not a playground

Coulda fooled me. Some of you are acting like middle schoolers. Youre right, were adults and this is a debate space, civility is expected. My feelings arent hurt, I'm just surprised as this is not the environment I'm used to in debate spaces.

Crime is not totally preventable so we should not try to prevent any?

This is quite a leap. We shouldn't try to prevent crime that hasn't been proven to happen on any meaningful level (no one has been able to provide actual data about rate of instances, just cherry picked articles) and if those "preventions" actually have proven negative effects on others.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Holy strawman!

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I said your side, not you.

I dont think there is an acceptable number of any kind of crime, but we dont live in a world where its feasible to prevent all crime.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I know? But you asked if I really needed more sources but I only asked before I was given any?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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So I asked you about whether or not those same people had empathy for the countless people whom their demands affect and screw over.

Youre so screwed over yet cant find a review of the evidence that proves this? If there are so many instances of you being screwed over surely there's data to back that up?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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No attacks are acceptable but there is no way to prevent all attacks. Im not "demanding" anything, Im asking. I think Im being civil. What to you suggests otherwise? Im not the one calling others idiots and acting like they cant comprehend arguments. Thats your side. Why shouldnt I want a study? If you cant access my first study there is a review of it in the article I linked.

Would you please reask your questions that you want answered? Some of them seem kind of vague to me.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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So no? Because I'm pretty sure you can cherry pink individual instances to back up any position.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Ah, so, you're just asking a stupid and pointless question to which we both know the answer is "no".

Clearly not if I'm asking? And other people are confirming that yes, it might lead to harrassment, so its obviously not as clear cut as youre making it out to be.

See, the whole problem with this idiot act is that, if you expect everything you say to be taken literally, in the most limited capacity and not be considered for what it actually is, you end up sounding even dumber than if you'd stuck to the original question.

Can you debate without resorting to middle school insults?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Your whole argument seems to be whataboutism and no one said there wasn't empathy for these people anyway.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Do you have any studies that review the evidence? I mean I'll look at these links but they seem to all be from the same website which clearly has an agenda. I was hoping for something more substantial.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Edit again- went and read the whole post, HP gave you several sources. You really need more?

If you read the whole thing surely you saw that I asked for sources before anyone had given me any?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Because you personally think so.

No, because the evidence says so

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Can you provide some sources? Because so far I've provided two which have found no link between trans friendly bathroom policies and increases in violence and no one has provided any sources against that.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

http://jaapl.org/content/46/2/232#sec-8

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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It’s like they think if someone says they will kill them selves if they aren’t given an iPhone

The fact that you think this is comparable shows a disturbing lack of empathy...

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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The original comment that I replied to implied that whats good for the majority is always the best system which is the main thing I was responding to. Someone else asked if I thought racial segregation and systems that cater to able bodied people kept the most amount of people safe and I said some people perceive it that way. You interpretted that to mean that I thought that people were afraid of disability accomodations which is not what I meant by some people believe that systems that cater to able bodied people keep the most amount of people safe so anything else isn't necessary if most people are safe anyway. That doesn't mean I think that people were afraid of disability accomodations, only that I think people thought they were unnecessary. Understand?

Besides, absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority.

I didn't say it did? I said the opposite.

(My comment doesn't make any sense now that you've edited yours so I'm pasting your original comment for context)

Because you said it was about safety, or rather fears for safety. Besides, absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority. It’s absurd to compare the wants of a small group to the actual needs of people with disabilities.

I disagree morality has nothing to do with it, if accomodating someone's gender has no proven risk and not accomodating their gender has a proven risk. Thats clearly a morality issue to me.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Regardless of whether you care if trans people kill themselves or not, it seems obvious to me that if there is a proven bad outcome for trans people without gender affirming policies and no evidence for a bad outcome for cis people with gender affirming policies, gender affirming policies should be preferable.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Some people believed that disability accomodations weren't necessary because the current system benefitted the maximum number of people. I don't know why you think that people had to be afraid of disability accomodations in order for it to be comparable as that wasn't why I was comparing the two in the first place.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I thought you were pretty needlessly rude in your response so decided not to engage further in that moment, yes.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Thank you.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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No I am not, I'm saying that the majority perceived it that way.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Women fearing male presence in their spaces and policing female spaces to keep men out is not "harassment".

I didn't say it was. I was asking if you thought it would lead to actual harrassment.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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you also would have needed to back up why not sacrificing sex based spaces for the sake of trans people is not the most morally correct

I don't think there is any evidence that allowing trans people to use the spaces that align with their gender identity causes those spaces to be unsafe for others. I think there is actually evidence of the opposite https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

Whereas there is evidence that not allowing trans people to use spaces that align with their gender identity has bad consequences for trans people https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-bathroom-law-study-suicide-454185

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29159308/

That is what makes it more morally correct to me.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I'm saying that the solution that works for the most people isn't always the most morally correct, not just in regards to sex segregation.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I guess we have different life experiences then.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I thought how someone looked didnt matter, their sex did.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Uh you wrote me two comments, one claiming you didn't give any examples and the other addressing your examples, so I'm not sure whats going on here

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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they effectively forfeit access to the women's room once they transition

So not all females have the right to sex segregation?

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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I am talking about passing TM in women's bathrooms, not men's bathrooms.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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Switch out "the most amount of people practically possible" for "cis" or "able bodied" or "ethnic majority" and read your comment again.

For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

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You say women won't harrass someone and then give many examples of people who WILL harrass TM in female bathrooms. Owners, managers, some women, other men. So how is that okay?