Identity

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

If an identity is taken to mean just the summation of what or who someone or something is, if one really sees their being the opposite sex as a fact, then they would just see it as a fact. I believe that can be the case, especially for children. But that would be maybe just the idea of identifying as something. To identify with something or someone, I would think it's just recognizing similarities or feeling connection or kinship or something like that, like noticing one has more traits that seem to be common with the opposite sex--that person doesn't genuinely believe themselves to be a member of that sex.

But I think that's part of the conclusion that dysphoric children reach that Peaking touched on: as a child, you might conclude you are the opposite sex because of the similarities you see between yourself and members of that sex, or all of the stereotypes and generalizations attributed to that sex. For me, it seemed like the whole world was constantly telling me in many ways that I was a girl or supposed to be one, so that's the conclusion I made.

Why should an adult or anyone who knows or knew better identify as the opposite sex? I'm not sure. For me, it is a fact still that I was supposed to be born a girl (or so I was repeatedly told), like a matter-of-fact medical fact which I find impossible to ignore. I took the idea that I was supposed to be born a girl to mean that I am supposed to be female. Maybe it isn't true for others, or it's too general to apply to most trans people, but somehow a person must be convinced in some way that they are or are supposed to be the opposite sex (or have no sex, or be both)--and it's easier to be convinced of something if everyone is telling you or demonstrating to you that it seemingly is the case.

Affirmation seems to be the key to perpetuating and strengthening any beliefs, so affirming 'woman' or 'man' as an identity that one has that might not match their sex makes sense how even someone who never believed such a thing about themselves would grow to see that as a fact. The whole concept of 'cracking eggs' is a great, albeit horrifying demonstration of that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

if one really sees their being the opposite sex as a fact, then they would just see it as a fact

But how though? Lol that’s what I’m trying to figure out. How can someone just believe something that the very fact of their body disproves?

I get what you’re saying in general, and you as usual make great points. I just don’t see how I could look at my female body and think I’m the opposite sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm with you Sloane in not being any closer to figuring out this "identify as" phenomenon so it makes more sense.

Another thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is the notion that boys can grow up thinking they are girls when their male gonads and genitals are right there in their laps/crotches where they can see them just by looking down - and they handle their penises each time they pee. Whereas girls' genitals are tucked between our legs in such a way that we never see them really until we get older and look with a mirror, we don't touch and hold them with our hands each time we pee - and of course, we never see or touch our gonads, unlike guys who are always scratching and "adjusting" theirs.

Then when boys start puberty and their dicks and balls start growing, they get spontaneous erections, have wet dreams, and start masturbating and intentionally ejaculating. I can't imagine how when all that stuff is going on that boys hold on to the idea inculcated early in childhood that they're somehow really girls. It's not that I don't believe it happens - clearly it does, from what peaking and Fleurista say. It's just that my powers of imagination are too limited...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I kind of see a way to explain this that might make sense that both you and Sloane touched on: I feel like basically as a young child, I accidentally embodied QT. So, the conclusions that QT adolescents, teens and adults make and assert about sex and gender and stereotypes are conclusions naturally reached by a child who wouldn't know any other reality. That's sort of how I see it, because much of what QT espouses is in line with my thinking as a child. That would explain why I feel like those views are immature or 'childish', just because that's the kind of thinking I would have as a child. I think those beliefs only really hold (or hold as best as they can) if there is no other point of reference. So, to a child like that sex truly is just a blend of superficial and stereotypical things that have nothing to do with sex. Maybe that's not the case at all, though, but that thought struck me as I was driving home today.

ETA: OK so maybe QT was derived from the lived accounts told by adult transsexuals who grew up with dysphoria from childhood, and it's all been misappropriated by people who do not understand what this experience is like. So, it's the beliefs and accounts taken from transsexuals, but trying to apply them to people who have not lived with this confusion their whole lives--sort of akin to trying to sing a song of which you know the lyrics, but you don't know the melody. Obviously adults and older kids can become dysphoric, too, but I think the treatment and methodology of how to deal with it is just taken from what is standard for transsexuals who grew up this way.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a harder time understanding how older kids or teens or adults come to that conclusion, but I think it just has to be sort of a peer pressure by way of uninvited affirmation.

Like, many people have told me I have blonde hair, even though to me it is clearly brown. But so many people for so long have insisted that I have blonde hair that I can't help but conclude that I must have some kind of blonde hair, even though I still can't really see it... well, I think I can see it, because now I'm looking for whatever it is that others are seeing, and any bit of evidence supports that, I suppose. If I, in my heart of hearts, wanted to be a natural blonde, then I would maybe really lean into what others were telling me and be thrilled to tell the world I am a natural blonde and have that listed on my IDs and even join a 'blonde pride' social group, but it doesn't matter to me so I just don't care whether my hair is blonde or brown.

I would think the same would be the same for sex. Like, a person must already have some sort of doubts or feeling that they would be happier as the other sex or no sex or both sexes, that it would feel 'right' or better, so any affirmation would be fuel for the belief that you are that. There must have to be something that's 'off' for one to feel like that to begin with, in some way. Like, something or someone maybe puts that idea in someone's head and for some people they become fixated on it and the idea becomes more real.

Does that answer your question a bit more? People really seem to latch on to the 'identity' part of 'gender identity' and 'gender identity disorder', which makes me wonder if that's the common thread: that everyone who concludes they are the opposite sex (or they're trans, or have no sex, or are of both or more sexes) has some sort of malleability in their overall identification as a person, or just who they are.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I guess I just think- sex is so clearly visible allover. I don’t get how someone can look at their penis and think “woman” or their vagina and think “man”

My son knows he’s a boy and he knows girls have vaginas. Of course he’s not dysphoric or dealing with people telling him he was meant to be a girl- but I know too many small children (that sounds creepy, my husband has 4 siblings and they all have hella kids and my brother has three kids lol, we have a huge family with lots of kids. Just had to clarify) who understand the basics of sex and the differences between the two sexes to be able to understand how someone just thinks they are the opposite sex. Even if you think that as a very young child, you’d have to be sheltered from any fact of sex for your whole life to still think this by the time you’re like 6/7. Sex is just way too obvious. How can you even watch tv or read and not understand the truth of your body?

Like I get how light brown hair may be called blonde, I don’t see anyone saying “yeah my penis and lack of breasts or a period etc must mean Im a female”

I get thinking you should have been, I don’t get thinking you are

It took us a while to potty train my son. It took him a few minutes to understand why he had to stand when he peed but sit when he did the other lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Most kids can probably tell the difference that way if it's presented to them or they are somehow made aware of it, even just noticing. I indeed had a very isolated and sheltered childhood without other children around most of the time, so I didn't really have lots of opportunities where I could learn that difference. If my parents tried to teach me at some point, I have absolutely no memory of it, and based on what my mother has told me it doesn't sound like she or my father ever tried to make that clear. It's actually still surprising to me that children so young could recognize the difference between sexes and understand the physical differences between boys and girls, just because that was completely foreign to me.

You might be right then, maybe that is the only sort of scenario where one would genuinely believe they were they opposite sex, and it would probably be a very uncommon one. I haven't met anyone who came about that sort of conclusion in that way, but from experience I can say that it can indeed happen! lol

And that doesn't sound creepy at all lol just steer clear of ever using a Michael Scott-esque username like 'LittleKidLover' and you're golden!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I totally think, especially in today’s world, that some kids can grow up in an environment where they don’t get a clear understanding of sex because it’s either not being explained adequately or at all (or situations like yours). I just don’t think it’s the norm, not even for kids who will end up transitioning. I’d think it would be extremely rare, especially in the past when we were kids. So I’m thinking more kids struggling with gender/sex should have a pretty solid grasp on the concept of sex and their actual sex than don’t. But again I do accept there are situations where that’s not the case.

Sex was never made into a huge deal in my family, but we all understood it. I grew up in a more open household (like- zero boundaries lol) so maybe my brother and I had a more thorough explanation about sex before we started school, but even at school the other kids understood sex. I learned about periods from my classmate well before my mother intended to talk to me about them lmao. And my brother had a girl in his class explain that she had a vagina and babies came out of it. And then she showed her vagina. That kind of thing actually happens fairly often with younger kids. Most kids do understand that there are differences between boys and girls, even if they don’t understand with any nuance or detail.

And now I have to convince myself not to make my flair LittleKidLover lol

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I definitely don't think it's the norm, even among those who transition like you say. I would have thought there would be less chance of something like that happening in contemporary times because of the widespread availability of information and the ability to communicate with others, but maybe that's what you're getting at that would make it extra confusing for kids now... which is kind of depressing. Just having more information and people in my life to talk to or teach me things or learn from maybe would have been sufficient to prevent my belief from taking hold. But seeing all that stuff about multiple genders and sex and the differences between them and that sort of thing is even confusing for me as an adult, these poor kids today must be horribly confused and lost. What's weird is maybe both extremes could foster an identification like that, either being totally ignorant or being inundated with information (especially early on). It would have been nice and probably incredibly helpful to know about gender nonconformity and being gay and that sort of stuff, but having the dirge of LGBTQ+ 'information' be almost seemingly forced onto kids like it is now doesn't seem necessarily very helpful either by confusing or distressing them either.

Sex was never made into a huge deal in my family, but we all understood it. I grew up in a more open household (like- zero boundaries lol) so maybe my brother and I had a more thorough explanation about sex before we started school, but even at school the other kids understood sex. I learned about periods from my classmate well before my mother intended to talk to me about them lmao. And my brother had a girl in his class explain that she had a vagina and babies came out of it. And then she showed her vagina. That kind of thing actually happens fairly often with younger kids. Most kids do understand that there are differences between boys and girls, even if they don’t understand with any nuance or detail.

That's really interesting, I do wonder if I had siblings or older cousins if I would have learned more or been taught about that stuff. It sounds like you grew up in like the complete opposite sort of environment regarding that sort of stuff, that all sounds so strange and unthinkable to me! Was sex and peoples' sexes not a taboo subject in general, like even outside of your home? I can see kids being curious and exposing themselves like that, but were adults also relatively open? Obviously not exposing themselves (I hope!)

And now I have to convince myself not to make my flair LittleKidLover lol

Probably the best decision, although I secretly want you to because it really would be hilarious 😂

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

but maybe that's what you're getting at that would make it extra confusing for kids now... which is kind of depressing

Yes That’s exactly what I was getting at. I think it’s easier for me to accept the idea of a child (or rather more children in general) being confused about sex as an entire concept, but especially about their own sex. Particularly in today’s climate.

I am honestly expecting a lot of cases of people who are children now or were a few years ago suing over the blockers and all of that stuff. I think a lot of children and teens are getting sucked into the tra side of trans issues and are being influenced. It’s everywhere. I notice it a lot even with the shows I play for my oldest (that’s still so weird to me to say or type! Sorry lol it’s just funny to me), they’re talking about gender identity and sexuality in some of those shows.

I think kids with dysphoria obviously exist, but I think the idea of gender identity and being trans is something that people should maybe come to on their own instead of it being pushed and taught. I think the concept is accessible enough now that they could learn about it on their own and then look into talking to someone about it, if that makes sense. Like I’d think that’s the way to ensure that the people transitioning will actually be the ones who “need” it instead of people doing things because they were influenced at a vulnerable and impressionable age. Idk if that made any sense lol

Was sex and peoples' sexes not a taboo subject in general, like even outside of your home?

My mom worked with an lgbt center and we were always around lgbt people so I think maybe our parents just thought it best to be upfront. She would always invite the “lgbt orphans” for holidays and sometimes just dinners and stuff. They explained being trans to us specifically because she was (and still is) close friends with a TW and we spent a lot of time together and my mother wanted us to understand. Other than that, both of my parents explained when we asked (in an appropriate but honest way) or when it was necessary (like me coming home from school terrified because my classmate randomly informed me that I’d start bleeding out of my vagina lol). They have always been very open about anything from sex and sexuality to drugs and anything else. I think it’s why I lack any type of filter lol. They always made sure we knew we could ask them anything and be honest about how we felt and what we thought. It’s why when I knew I was bi I had no fear of telling them or dating whoever I wanted. But I acknowledge that I was very lucky to have that and not everyone does. Nobody was inappropriate.

That's really interesting, I do wonder if I had siblings or older cousins if I would have learned more or been taught about that stuff.

Oh yeah older cousins will tell you EVERYTHING about everything lol

Probably the best decision, although I secretly want you to because it really would be hilarious

Im gonna pick a random day and use it as a flair just to see if you notice lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's incredibly worrisome and angering that that sort of thing is being introduced and pushed onto children early on in their lives. It's intentionally confusing, cruel and I fear that it's like this mass manufactured transsexualism that these kids are being set up for. This is not a good experience, no child should grow up that way and have to deal with the ramifications of that for the rest of their lives. It makes life unnecessarily difficult and painful, and makes it harder for children (or anyone) to love and accept themselves exactly for all of who and what they are. I am sorry I see it that way, but to me it is incredibly cruel or irresponsible at best.

I think kids with dysphoria obviously exist, but I think the idea of gender identity and being trans is something that people should maybe come to on their own instead of it being pushed and taught. I think the concept is accessible enough now that they could learn about it on their own and then look into talking to someone about it, if that makes sense. Like I’d think that’s the way to ensure that the people transitioning will actually be the ones who “need” it instead of people doing things because they were influenced at a vulnerable and impressionable age. Idk if that made any sense lol

That makes complete sense! I would agree, we could even redirect the energy of this contemporary societal obsession with transgenderism and gender into figuring out early interventions to help kids better understand sex and sex-based roles, and prevent transsexualism and/or dysphoria from happening in the first place. I've grown more and more of the opinion that there has to be a way to avoid transitioning, I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

My mom worked with an lgbt center and we were always around lgbt people so I think maybe our parents just thought it best to be upfront. She would always invite the “lgbt orphans” for holidays and sometimes just dinners and stuff. They explained being trans to us specifically because she was (and still is) close friends with a TW and we spent a lot of time together and my mother wanted us to understand. Other than that, both of my parents explained when we asked (in an appropriate but honest way) or when it was necessary (like me coming home from school terrified because my classmate randomly informed me that I’d start bleeding out of my vagina lol). They have always been very open about anything from sex and sexuality to drugs and anything else. I think it’s why I lack any type of filter lol. They always made sure we knew we could ask them anything and be honest about how we felt and what we thought. It’s why when I knew I was bi I had no fear of telling them or dating whoever I wanted. But I acknowledge that I was very lucky to have that and not everyone does. Nobody was inappropriate.

Wow. Your experience growing up in this kind of environment with the parents and adults and kids you had in your life is really amazing to me! That sounds incredibly cool. I mean, maybe it wasn't totally cool for you, but from the opposite side of things it seems like a really great experience to have as a kid, especially growing up as a bisexual kid. Did you ever experience any confusion really at all regarding your sexuality or sex? It doesn't sound like it, but I don't want to just assume... it's just hard to comprehend!

Your experience growing up lends so much more credence to the idea that it's a matter of confusion or misunderstanding regarding sex and gender that is a huge factor in dysphoria or cross-sex identification from developing. You were surrounded by LGBT people and culture and were told about just sex, and you never developed dysphoria or believed you weren't female (assuming again, please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Oh yeah older cousins will tell you EVERYTHING about everything lol

I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family, I hope I haven't corrupted my little cousins lol 😂 Definitely not the best teacher

Im gonna pick a random day and use it as a flair just to see if you notice lol

Challenge gladly accepted 😁

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy

That’s such an interesting view. I think I agree with you, it just never occurred to me to phrase it that way. But it makes sense.

Did you ever experience any confusion really at all regarding your sexuality or sex?

I didn’t paste all of this part but I’m super lucky to have had the childhood I had. I was surrounded by lgbt and creative people and it was wonderful!

I didn’t have any confusion, I just remember I developed crushes on two siblings and felt guilty for that lol. I had a crush on my friend, and then her brother. I think at first I thought I was a lesbian because the first attraction I felt was for a female, but I never felt weird about realizing I was bi because nobody around me really cared as long as they knew who I was spending my time with. I told my parents I was a lesbian, then that I was bi, both times they were just like, “okay. Thanks for telling us.”

My parents were weird about my brother going vegan, oddly enough lol.

I didn’t develop any type of dysphoria or anything, but I was shy about girls because I had absolutely zero gaydar. I felt much more insecure when it came to girls/women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

Now this is an idea to really gnaw on fleur! Gonna be thinking bout this for days

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

Now this is an idea to really gnaw on fleur! Gonna be thinking bout this for days

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I can see how someone may come to the idea that they should have been the opposite sex. Or as I mentioned to Peaking, wishing that they were, but I just don’t understand the idea of thinking that you are. I’d think the fact that you felt you were told you should have been a girl- if that were me maybe it would make me begin to agree that I should have been, could even make me wish it were so, but it would also be a constant reminder to me that I am not what everyone thinks I was meant to be, if that makes sense?

I can get behind trans people saying they felt they should have been born the opposite sex, and even saying they transitioned to get as close to that as possible. I don’t get how anyone can come to conclusion that they somehow just are something they had to drastically alter themselves to even resemble.

I do agree that there’s a difference between identifying as and with something. But I think it would still be identifying with the things you associate with the opposite sex/gender.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me. I didn't have a reference other than superficial appearances (clothes, hair, grooming) for the difference between girls and boys, women and men, so there was no real reminder for me or reinforcement other than some adults trying to remind me that I was a boy. Children are really ignorant of much of the world due to the nature of human development, so magical thinking and that sort of behavior are common. So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

I'm not sure how people who feel they need to go to great lengths to pass understand they are the sex they identify as. I had always thought the whole point of transitioning was so one didn't have to try so hard to just live life. Not needing to really change much about myself to always pass was precisely even more evidence to me that of course I am supposed to be a woman.

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body? I’m honestly just interested in a convo not trying to make a point or anything lol

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

What I’m saying is I think TW can connect with some women on some things. Twaniac pointed out in a thread that one of the posters who said they connected with girls as a kid was actually connecting with specific girls (girls who had similar interests), not just girls in general. I think TW can connect with any woman (or man) who shares similar interests. And possibly admittedly it’s likely more women will share certain interests that TW seem to generally cite as things they knew meant they were women, worded that horribly sorry. Can try to articulate better lol

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

True, I would think you're mostly right about that for sure

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body?

No, not that I'm aware of. Maybe that isn't true, but I genuinely am unaware if they did. For context, I grew up an only child in the 90s in a rural US Midwest home in a very socially conservative environment without many people, let alone children, around. We didn't have a computer or the internet until after I was like 10 or 11, and we never had cable TV so there wasn't much opportunity to be exposed to that kind of learning.

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

Well said, that might be the most accurate way to elucidate this: issues women face directly as a result of their sex might resemble some issues that transwomen face as well, but it wouldn't be for the exact same reason. For women, it's because of their biology, their sex, and for transwomen it's because of homophobia or misplaced misogyny, and maybe many if not most transwomen draw the conclusion that we're receiving what appears to be similar treatment and share what appears to be similar experiences, but they aren't for the same reason, so that's where transwomen mistakenly believe it is. That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe

See that’s a great point thst never occurred to me lol

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would make sense why GC and QT butt heads so so much on this stuff. If most trans people were capable of seeing things from the GC perspective, I think the 'illusion' would cease to exist and it's hard to imagine they would stay trans, or at least think of themselves and others as belonging to another sex or being sexless. Gender dysphoria seems to thrive on the misunderstanding, which is what the previous diagnosis of gender identity disorder highlighted. Part of it is our inaccurate or incomplete understanding of sex, sex role stereotypes and our own sex. I say 'our' as in trans people, I guess that's generalizing, but from my own perspective which I see as very warped I feel like that's maybe the case. But maybe that's totally off, too lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing is, when you and peaking respond, I do get it. I don’t always agree, but I understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. The responses you both offer always acknowledge what gc or even people who aren’t gc but aren’t tras are always pointing out and you seem to be able to take women and our concerns/needs/feelings/differences into account. And that makes a huge difference in the quality of discussion as well as the ability to actually discuss anything at all.

But- and I don’t say this to disrespect any other posters here- you both come across as significantly more self aware and less ego driven (using ego in every sense of the word) than the other transwomen on the sub and the loudest of the online trans community. There’s a self awareness and societal awareness you both have that, in my experience a lot of transwomen from before (that “before” when this wasn’t a prevalent social and political discussion and TW and TM were allowed to be acknowledged as trans and not the sex/gender they transitioned to appear as) have that the woke trans community lacks. (I’m not trying to call either of you old lol, I always assumed the three of us are relatively close in age)

I understand why the woke trans community gets upset, but I think it’s because they know their logic is faulty and they’re defying fact. There’s hostility because you can’t convince everyone of something that just isn’t true. I know my comments can be cold and I can come across as if I don’t care (or apparently that I hate trans people…) but I do appreciate that if qt feels oppressed and rejected or invalidated by society it can’t feel good to constantly feel like you have to justify your sense of self to others, so I get the combativeness. The problem is that the issue is bigger than just a sense of self. It is impacting other people and their rights and safety, so they kind of do owe us (general society) an explanation that we can understand.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning.

Jane Clare Jones pointed out that the basic misunderstanding between genderists and the rest of society, particularly GC, is that for most people the words man, women, boy and girl refer to the physical sex of the body - but for genderists those same words refer to the sex stereotypes and sexist expectations associated with each sex - aka gender - and the ideas & "identity" that exist in the mind.

Unpicking "gender identity" even more, kids who develop gender dysphoria seem to grow up in settings where they are given the idea that there are two boxes of stereotypes - one labelled "girl," the other labelled "boy" - and that a fundamental task of childhood development & personality formation means deciding which box of stereotypes they as individuals prefer & feel most drawn to & in synch with. For whatever reason, they don't realize that most grownups don't fit either box, that they can pick & choose from the two boxes, or that the two boxes themselves can be ignored altogether - or smashed, stomped, set on fire and/or laughed at.

maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

I think you're getting to something profound by adding in the word "confusion" there. My sense is that a core issue for a lot of kids who develop "gender dysphoria" is that they've been raised without an understanding of sex, biology and human bodies in general, and through no fault of their own they are unfamiliar with and uncertain about what used to be called "the facts of life," "the birds & the bees" and just "the basics." I think this deprives kids of a grasp of, and solid grounding, in reality, including their own material reality - and leads to a sense of self that is both disembodied and shaky. And a core bewilderment.

IMO, a further disservice has been done to people with gender dysphoria is labelling it "gender dysphoria." Coz in that word pairing, no one knows what either "gender" or "dysphoria" really means, and when you put the two words together the meaning of each one becomes even more obscure. Rather than elucidate and clarify, the term "gender dysphoria" seems intended to mystify and muddy.

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this. Kids & young people are desperately trying to make sense of themselves & the world - and everyone yearns for a worldview based on as firm a foundation as possible. But maybe at some level, kids with GD have a niggling sense that something is off, that it doesn't compute, as it were. And this leads to a great deal of anxiety borne of, as you said, confusion. Indeed, borne of perplexity and bewilderment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)