QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]strictly 9 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

I think masculinity and femininity are sexuality.

I am also curious about what you mean with this. Are you saying it sexually arouses a masculine/feminine person to display masculinity/femininity? Or are you saying masculine and feminine people use their masculinity/femininity to attract sexual partners? Or do you mean we are sexually attracted to people displaying masculinity/femininity? Or perhaps a combination of all three?

Masculinity and femininity follow the same pattern.

I don’t think gender roles are necessary for the development of androphilai/gynephilia. I think androphilia/gynpehilia can end up developing in different ways depending on what it hooked into during development. In a society without gender roles there would only be biological sex for androphilia/gynephilia to hook into as that would be the only thing associated with the each sex. We don’t live in a world without gender roles though so for some people androphilia/gynephila might have hooked into everything associated with each sex, including cultural things. Or in some cases it might have only hooked into the cultural things but not the biological sex itself, making the person attracted to masculinity/femininity regardless of the sex of the person.

Is your theory that most people would end up asexual in a hypothetical genderless society?

It's emergent from human nature so you can't abolish it.

I think there might be a biological mechanism making people on average more likely to imitate members of their own sex as there has been a few of studies pointing in that direction. But that wouldn't make gender roles inevitable per se.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Could you share the studies you mentioned at the end of your comment?

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

Could you share the studies you mentioned at the end of your comment?

Here girls with CAH (who were exposed to more prenatal androgens) seem less likely than other girls to follow fake female gender norms (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2015.0125) so prenatal hormones might influence who we imitate. It was a long time ago since I read about the self-socialization theory so can't find the other studies right now but there was a finding on monkeys where male monkeys didn't learn to be take care of monkey children by female monkeys, but if there were older nurturing male monkeys, then they would follow the example of these nurturing male monkeys and learn to take care of monkey children from them.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

When girl is said that she is "other" or she is laughed out for having facial hair from the very childhood - no wonder she will not want to comply with gender stereotypes.

2016

Poor women with CAH pulled into this gender nonsense.

For example, boys tend to prefer playing with toy vehicles and weapons, whereas girls tend to prefer playing with dolls and tea sets.

That's a lie, which was already debunked in studies in 90s and 00s, as all this is imposed on kids. There was study, that younger boys will always play dolls with their older sister and will not find it girlish or anything, until tell it in school or elsewhere and be laughed out for doing this, only then those boys would start doing "what other boys do" - to "fit the group they belong".

This study says this later themselves:

In regard to gender-typed toys, parents, teachers and peers all encourage gender-consistent toy choices more than they encourage gender-atypical choices.

But they are still making assumption, that it is what boys and girls like and that it is natural. Which is not.

I'd ask /u/ColoredTwice experience on this, as she has CAH herself.

All the girls with CAH had been assigned and reared as girls, and treated with hormones postnatally to normalize their cortisol and androgen concentrations. Similarly, all the boys with CAH had been assigned and reared as boys, and they were treated with the same hormones as girls were to normalize postnatal hormone concentrations.

This is very weird statement. As far as I know, if they receive treatment for "wrong sex" - they will simply die. So there no "assigment" involved - it is just what medical personel was required to do to save lives of those kids.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

When girl is said that she is "other" or she is laughed out for having facial hair from the very childhood - no wonder she will not want to comply with gender stereotypes.

Girls with CAH who get treatment don't all grow facial hair in early childhood, I think it would have been mentioned in the study if following fake gender norms depended on the child being bearded or not.

That's a lie, which was already debunked in studies in 90s and 00s, as all this is imposed on kids.

The study will mention other studies, that's almost inevitable, even studies you agree with would more often than not also mentions studies you don't agree with, but this is not the study itself. And the conclusion of the study is that the difference is not about the toys themselves.

But they are still making assumption, that it is what boys and girls like and that it is natural.

The point of the study is making fake norms and see the tendency to follow them. There is an article mentioning this study where Cordelia Fine who wrote the book delusions of gender is one of the co-authors https://theconversation.com/how-we-inherit-masculine-and-feminine-behaviours-a-new-idea-about-environment-and-genes-82524.

This is very weird statement. As far as I know, if they receive treatment for "wrong sex" - they will simply die. So there no "assigment" involved - it is just what medical personel was required to do to save lives of those kids.

They will use woke terms as they have to. Almost all studies nowadays use woke terms in some way or the other, one has to ignore that and read the meaning behind the word if one likes reading studies.

Anyway, it's worth mentioning I don't believe in the blank slate. I have read many studies and I have also read Cordelia Fine's books where she criticize the studies, and I mostly agree with the criticisms. One of the things that are hard to explain through pure socialization is the heterosexual/homosexual differences. In studies homosexuals are on average more gender non-conforming than heterosexual people, and that seems to be the case for pre-homosexuals too (i.e children who are more gender non-conforming seem to be more likely to be same-sex attracted later in life). There are many ways to try to explain away this but none of those explanations ever seemed that convincing to me. The self-socialization theory would explain it though, and the self-socialization theory doesn't support the inevitability of gender norms.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

One of the things that are hard to explain through pure socialization is the heterosexual/homosexual differences. In studies homosexuals are on average more gender non-conforming than heterosexual people

That is the easiest part to explain, actually.

I saw that I am different to others in my sexuality, so I just went different in other ways as well, just because I already was not like others in some aspects. It was very strange not to see any other woman loving women, everyone was with men, so I thought I am just weird, and when I rebelled against "you need to date boys" - I went full GNC for few years during my teen years. I am bisexual, but with very strong preference for women, and because of social pressure, I decided I will only ever be with women. I know many similar stories about going GNC from lesbians and gay men. Especially gay men who were bullied - went even more GNC. Most transsexuals I know are gay men, who were victims of homophobia, who went full GNC and later full "feminine" to a "I will be a woman" degree.

Anyway, it's worth mentioning I don't believe in the blank slate.

It is hard to say. Boys and girls have different experience and different capabilities based on our biological differences. Same situation will be perceived differently by boys and girls, even if both will receive same treatment, same socialization and will have everything else the same. Our bodies are different, we can't escape this. Same goes with hormones - progesterone is working like sedative, while testosterone is working as anti-depressant and energetic. I don't think it will ever be possible to clearly know are we born with blank state or not, but just because our biological bodies, needs and experiences are different - we will be different as groups (men and women) always. We are - our experience and our biological needs.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I saw that I am different to others in my sexuality, so I just went different in other ways as well, just because I already was not like others in some aspects.

I was a tomboy as a kid and got bullied for it. I was a tomboy before I knew I was a lesbian. Among GNC homosexuals many seem to have been GNC before puberty, long before they were aware of being different from other kids in sexuality. There are certainly those who become GNC later too, and many who were never GNC at all, but on average homosexuals seem to have been more likely to have been GNC from a very early age than straight people on average. That is why some homosexuals are concerned about early child transition for GNC children and see that as gay conversion therapy as a significant percentage of them would probably grow up as homosexual.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Anyway, it's worth mentioning I don't believe in the blank slate. I have read many studies and I have also read Cordelia Fine's books where she criticize the studies, and I mostly agree with the criticisms. One of the things that are hard to explain through pure socialization is the heterosexual/homosexual differences. In studies homosexuals are on average more gender non-conforming than heterosexual people, and that seems to be the case for pre-homosexuals too (i.e children who are more gender non-conforming seem to be more likely to be same-sex attracted later in life). There are many ways to try to explain away this but none of those explanations ever seemed that convincing to me. The self-socialization theory would explain it though, and the self-socialization theory doesn't support the inevitability of gender norms.

Agree with this.

There is bad gender science. But bad gender science does not mean there is no science to gender.