QT: What rights don’t trans people have?

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[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But lacking gender identity is making someone "agender". Why changing rules mid-way?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (8 children)

Agender is part of the nom-binary spectrum. So that means you can't call yourself male or female anymore.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Male or female is not gender identity, it is sex.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Agender is part of the nom-binary spectrum.

More or less all people here would be trans according to the definitions trans activists use, yes. I personally think that is an overly broad definition so I define trans as someone who is taking hormones. But if not having a cisgender gender identity is the being trans to you I think you should own up to that and recognize most of us are trans according to the definitions you adhere to.

that means you can't call yourself male or female anymore.

Plenty of trans people have called themselves their biological sex. Blair White has recognized being a biological male, Buck Angel has recognized being a biological female, are they cis according to you? You shouldn't make special rules just for non-trans people. And trans people say gender identity and biological sex are two separate things so being truthful about one’s biological sex (a truth the person might not even like) doesn’t really say anything at all about that person’s gender identity. Thirdly, even people who call themselves nonbinary and specifically avoid calling themselves the specific letters “male” and “female” are still frequently calling themselves biological males and females by calling themselves amabs and afabs. The meaning of a word is what it refer to, not the specific letters combinations used, so if female trans people call themselves afabs, they are still calling themselves females as female is what they refer to.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

Plenty of trans people have called themselves their biological sex. Blair White has recognized being a biological male, Buck Angel has recognized being a biological female, are they cis according to you? You shouldn't make special rules just for non-trans people.

Yes, they recognize they were born male or female and have sex-specific internal organs but that's not how they primarily identify. On medical forms, Buck will likely check "female". On census and other forums, Buck will likely "male". If you ask Buck if he's a man or a woman, he will answer man. Buck also does not claim female oppression.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I recognize I was born female and have female specific internal organs, just as Buck does, if that doesn't make Buck cis then recognizing the same reality Buck recognizes doesn't make anyone else cis either.

If you ask Buck if he's a man

If you ask Buck if Buck is an adult human male Buck is going to say no. As Buck isn't referring to adult human males with the letter combination "man" Buck is obviously referring to an entirely different thing than GC with that the letter combination "man" as we are still only referring to adult human males. We have already determined that recognizing one's physical reality is not a gender identity, otherwise Buck would be cis. To prove males calling themselves men are cisgender you need to prove that 100% of these males are genderists referring to themselves as having gender identities, and absolutely not just recognizing themselves as adult human males, otherwise Blair White would be cis too for recognizing the exact same thing. You have failed to prove that.

Buck also does not claim female oppression.

There have been other females who take testosterone and call themselves as men who have though, are they cis women according to you for recognizing their female oppression as you bring it up?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

If you ask Buck if Buck is an adult human male Buck is going to say no.

Buck is going to say he's a man who was born female.

There have been other females who take testosterone and call themselves as men who have though, are they cis women according to you for recognizing their female oppression as you bring it up?

Most trans men recognize female oppression exists, but they don't claim they themselves are oppressed due to being female, especially after medical transition. Many have said they don't fear going out alone at night the same way cis women do.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Buck is going to say he's a man who was born female.

Which proves that the thing Buck refers to with the letter combination "man" has nothing in common with what GC refer to with man, as we still only refer to males. When Buck refer to males though Buck recognizes not being male. Recognizing one's biological reality is not a gender identity, otherwise Buck Angel would be a cisgendered woman. We are only recognizing our biological reality, and that's it (something many trans people do too).

they don't claim they themselves oppressed due to being female

There are those who indeed do that.

especially after medical transition

You don't define trans people by hormone status so hormones shouldn't matter for you here. You talk about identity and you don't need hormones to have an identity. So either female people can recognize being oppressed due to being female without having cisgender gender identities or they can't and females who call themselves men and recognize their female oppression are all cisgendered women according to you. Which way is it?

Many have said they don't fear going out alone at night the same way cis women do.

Sounds like that has to do with looks, not identity. Unless you are saying they were all cisgendered women before deciding to become trans.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Which proves that the thing Buck refers to with the letter combination "man" has nothing in common with what GC refer to with man, as we still only refer to males. When Buck refer to males though Buck recognizes not being male. Recognizing one's biological reality is not a gender identity, otherwise Buck Angel would be a cisgendered woman. We are only recognizing our biological reality, and that's it (something many trans people do too).

GCs don't see Buck as a man, but Buck sees himself as a man.

There are those who indeed do that.

I've read on r/FTM and other articles online where trans men say when they start passing they are treated as men by society. In this post, men say they don't fear sexual assault when walking alone at night. One man said "I have no fear of being attacked in a sexual way, but I fear being mugged/beaten up more now." Other trans men say it's easier to publish their work than under a female name, and they are taken more seriously at work.

GCs often talk over trans men saying they are only transitioning to escape misogyny or are lesbians in denial and they will always experience female oppression no matter what.

You don't define trans people by hormone status so hormones shouldn't matter for you here. You talk about identity and you don't need hormones to have an identity. So either female people can recognize being oppressed due to being female without having cisgender gender identities or they can't and females who call themselves men and recognize their female oppression are all cisgendered women according to you. Which way is it?

I don't define men by hormones but I was specifically talking about trans men who pass as male.

Sounds like that has to do with looks, not identity. Unless you are saying they were all cisgendered women before deciding to become trans.

Yes this does have to do with looks.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GCs don't see Buck as a man, but Buck sees himself as a man.

GC sees Buck as an adult human female and Buck does the same. As Buck and GC refer to two different things with the letter combination "man" we have to translate it. Buck is referring to having a gender identity, as anyone can identify as anything there is no reason for me to disbelieve anyone's gender identity so I would agree that Buck has the gender identity Buck claims to have as there is nothing that stops women from having the gender identity Buck has.

Other trans men say it's easier to publish their work than under a female name

Exactly, their gender identity had nothing to with it, any female person passing as the opposite sex/using a male name would get the same result as these females, regardless of gender identity.

they will always experience female oppression no matter what

They will experience it at the same level as any female person in their situation. Females who identify as men and don't pass as men will experience female oppression at the same level as other female people who don't pass as men. Females who identify men and pass as men will experience female oppression at them same level as other female people who pass as men. In countries where abortions is banned pregnant females who identify men will be banned from having abortions just like other pregnant females. Identity itself makes no difference.

I was specifically talking about trans men who pass as male.

Then you are talking about looks, and looks are not same thing as identity.

Anyway, we were talking about cisgender gender identities and experiencing female oppression doesn't prove a person would have a a cisgender identity (fetuses who are aborted for being female may have had any gender identity). I personally don't care that you have a cisgender gender identity, your mind, your business. I do take issue that you want to label people without gender identities with false gender identities against their will.