GCdebatesQT

adungitit

Black people did not demand segregation for their own protection and needs. Segregation was pushed on them by the dominant class for no reason other than the fact that they were seen as subhumans that the whites shouldn't mingle with. This is different from women fighting for their own spaces because shared spaces were dangerous and exclusionary to them because of men's misogyny.

"if men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they might be attracted to women, and stare at a woman inappropriately making women uncomfortable, why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces"?

We don't have an entire history of women sexually assaulting and perving on other women to the point of having to create separate spaces for protection just so women could function normally in public.

EDIT: The equivalent of racial segregation would be when women were straight up banned by men from institutions like colleges and jobs. In some places they couldn't even leave the house unattended. THAT is segregation.

VioletRemi

Sex-segregated spaces were created to include women in social life (and sports), give women equal chances and opportunities. Men and women are very different and average "standart" or unisex spaces are not serving women any good and made with men in mind. That's why, by the way, including males in women's sports and spaces is not inclusive, it is exclusionary.

Race segregation was created to exclude black people from social life.

Sex-segregation was long fought and needed by women, and even today in very patriarchic countries lack of sex-segregation is a big point of pressure on women.

Race segregation was enforced on black people against their will.

So sex segregation and race segregation are completely opposite in every aspect.

MarkTwainiac

As a lesbian, I have stared at women sexually and dreamt of doing sexual things with them, especially in bathrooms and locker rooms.

Staring at women in a leering, suggestive, sexually aggressive way in locker rooms, toilet facilities and other such settings is not acceptable for anyone, including lesbians and bi women. It's also NOT customary behavior for lesbians and bi women, either. At all.

In another post on this thread you say

I don't stare too much by the way. My sex drive changes frequently, from feeling nothing to feeling too much all of a sudden. Most times, when I see other women anywhere, I don't feel anything. But there are these occasions I have a high sex drive and stare even if it's on the streets ...

It must be because I've never had sex? Not sure. I'm very introverted and socially awkward. Even talking to others is a hard task for me, that's why I've never even been in a relationship. 😅

Please stop suggesting that what you personally do on the streets every once in a while is indicative of what all or the majority of lesbians and bi women customarily and constantly do, and have historically done, in intimate spaces like locker rooms and loos. None of us can make generalizations about entire classes of people based on our own individual life experience. This is even more the case for you because as you admit, you have very limited life experience. You do not represent lesbians or bi women as a group. You do not speak for them.

From your many posts on this sub, you are a very poorly informed person with little experience and knowledge about the topics you opine about more generally. Though many here find your threads and posts frustrating and tiresome, you have been shown a great deal of tolerance. But today I am drawing a line in the proverbial sand and saying I do not and will not tolerate this new attempt of yours to sully the reputation of all lesbians and bi women by painting them in a negative light.

Lesbians and bi women are not sexually aggressive leches who in locker rooms, ladies loos and other intimate female spaces tend to stare and leer at other women in a pervy, predatory way that is akin to the way boys & men use the "male gaze" to regard us as pieces of meat.

For you to suggest lesbians and bi women typically do behave this way is incredibly offensive. It's not only a total lie, but it's clearly meant to make lesbians and bi women out to be "manly" and "mannish" and "just as bad as men" for the purpose of suggesting that if boys and men don't belong in female intimate spaces, then lesbians and bi women don't either. This is a position that is homophobic, biphobic, sexist and misogynistic. Smearing lesbians and bi women as you are attempting to do is, as the British would say, not on, OP. It's not on at all.

[deleted]

What are the differences between sex segregation and racial segregation?

In the simplest terms:

a) There are no substantial innate differences between humans across race (apart from some population-driven tendencies for genetic medical conditions)

b) There are substantial innate differences between men and women regardless of race

c) There is a definite demonstrated history of aggression and violence of men against women, and social and economic vulnerability of women and the children in their care, across all races

Therefore women in this sense are considered a vulnerable class, and sex-based segregation is provided as a protective measure (sometimes called "positive discrimination").

(Disclaimer -- this is the reasoning of internal U.S. policy, and is not equivalent to punitive cultural sex segregation.)

Penultimate_Penance

The reason women need not want NEED single sex spaces: Male Violence
Why is male violence such a big deal? Because men are on average significantly stronger than women. Women wouldn't even have a fighting chance stronger.
Because of the underlying threat of male violence women cannot safely socially police criminal & non criminal, but still completely unacceptable behaviors that many men engage in. Most men get away with groping, leering, stalking, threatening and attacking women. The justice system does not have our back. The conviction rate of rapists and other types of sexual predation is abysmally low. Sexual assaults, rape and what not cannot be undone. Hence why single sex spaces are a justified preventative measure.
The consequences of rape for women can be catastrophic on multiple levels including unwanted pregnancy.

The strong prey on the weak. So the weak need protection. Single sex spaces and racial segregation are not comparable at all.

The differences between lets say a white person and a black person are superficial. Skin color says nothing about a person's character or capabilities. Racial segregation is irrational and unjust. That is why it is wrong. There are significant important physical differences between men and women. Given the scourge of male violence and male sexual predation single sex spaces are justified as a preventative measure to protect women from violent and/or sexually predatory men.

Lesbians & bisexual women have the same average strength as heterosexual women. We can safely socially police homosexual & bisexual women if they engage in inappropriate behavior without fearing for our lives. (Also it is extremely unlikely for lesbians to behave inappropriately. Men commit roughly 99% of rapes and the vast majority of sexual crimes.)

FlanJam

A lot of comments already mentioned safety reasons, so I'll just mention privacy and dignity reasons. Most women wouldn't want to strip naked in front of random men in a locker room, that's just the kind of society we live in, we're not nudists lol. Women have a right to privacy and NOT being peeped on by men.

fuckupaddams

Males are notorious for sexually assaulting females. A black woman is not likely to rape me, nor would I fear that she would.

loveSloane

Racial segregation was about racism. White men and white women still had their own sex based spaces when they weren’t allowing black people to access the same spaces... and black people weren’t advocating for black men to use women’s rooms and vis versa. They wanted to be able to use sex based spaces that everyone else got to use in the way everyone else used them- separated by sex.

There are many different ethnicities/races, they’re all made up of the same two sexes. It’s absurd to have a white bathroom, black bathroom, Latino bathroom, Asian bathroom, Native American bathroom... it’s not absurd to have two spaces, one for each sex that regardless of their race, every human is bound to be one of.

Sex segregation is about safety, privacy, equality sometimes, comfort levels, etc

Honestly it’s weird of you to just stare at women in bathrooms and locker rooms- but it’s not scary (it’s also not like lesbians/bi women generally make a habit of staring at women in bathrooms and locker rooms, some doing it doesn’t mean most of us don’t realize that’s creepy, also worth noting there’s a difference between noticing someone attractive and staring at them). Females are typically less dangerous than males, I may notice a woman staring, I’m not going to be afraid of the harm she may cause. And she is significantly less likely to want or attempt to cause me harm. Basically, if a woman was staring at me, I wouldn’t really care, if they were being weird about it, I would care and I’d have no problem saying something- if a man were staring at me, instant tension, instant thought of getting out and or seeing who else is in the space, and I wouldn’t dare say a word, I’d just remove myself ASAP.

There will always be risk and danger in public life, sex segregation is one of the ways to attempt to lessen that and offer females spaces where we feel safe and can seek refuge if need be, racial segregation was just about skin tone and hatred.

I think it’s odd that people have a problem with women wanting their own spaces, but not with men forcing women to sacrifice their spaces.

ZveroboyAlina

In middle school gym, I remember thinking about the topic of lesbians in the changing room, and being vaguely uncomfortable with the idea. I never said anything about it, because I had no better plan of how to reorganize things (where were the lesbians supposed to go, then?). But I do get that idea.

(Plot twist, turns out lesbians in the changing rooms were me + 2 of my closest friends at the time.)

But I was a middle schooler then. I thought that the idea of sex-segregated changing rooms was to protect people from lustful eyes, because that's sort of the friendly, down-peddled version of the story. I didn't know that the real reason for sex-segregated rooms is to protect women from literal assault, which is documented to happen much more in co-ed changing rooms. And I didn't know that because I was a kid. No one had ever told me, because they didn't want to scare me.

MarkTwainiac

Just want to add that the solution to women behaving inappropriately in women's spaces is to deal with them and their behavior directly. It's not to decide that because a small number of females act inappropriately, then let's open up female spaces to males coz some boys & men behave inappropriately too.

A sports analogy is apt. Just because some female athletes cheat in sports by doping on T and other PEDs isn't a justification for suspending all anti-doping rules, for allowing males into female sports, or for saying, That's it's, gals! No more separate division of sports for girls and women. We tried that and coz a few girls & women cheated, we're eliminating the category altogether. If girls and women want to compete, you'll have to do so in the boys' and men's division.

emptiedriver

Why is racial segregation discriminatory, while sex segregation is a requirement and not discriminatory?

When women are not allowed into men's clubs, it's sexist. There have never been separate drinking fountains for women. It's just places where men and women undress that are separate, and that's because we have different bodies and there is a risk of sexual assault, right? Black and white segregation was living spaces, buses, shops - black people were not allowed into the white world at all because they were considered lesser. Places where women were not allowed into men's spaces were sexist, and that was fought against in the exact same way. Places where they're separated for physical reasons are because male and female have different bodies.

why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces

Most simply, lesbians may have unwanted thoughts, but they don't pose as much of a danger. They are less likely to physically overpower, they are less able to sexually violate, and they cannot impregnate other women. In addition most lesbians understand that it's unpleasant to be leered at and will not want to seem threatening. Also, there are just a smaller percentage of lesbians among a group of women than hetero men among a group of men.

Nothing is a 100% solution, but changing with your own sex handles 99% of the problem. You can't really regulate "don't go in if you might do something bad", and where are you going to have lesbians change? But it's a small enough issue to just accept division by sex, although famously that has resulted in male bathrooms turning into gay sex spots in the past... I've never heard of the equivalent issue arising for women's areas though.

SnowAssMan

Because mixed people exist? The average "black" person in the US is 26% "white". Black people & white people have mixed children together, while males & females beget more males & females, not hermaphrodites. And one ethnic group isn't constantly trying to rape another ethnic group?

You already know the difference between being looked at by a lesbian & being looked at by a man.