QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

You are dense or are you just pretending to be stupid? Socialization is about trends. This is what happens to a large number of women all around the World. That there is a miniscule fraction of them that doesn' t live through it doesn' t mean that it doesn' t affect most of us.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

Do you have any evidence of women who aren' t misandrist avoiding shelters that admit males?

i can play that stupid game, too, you know. It doesn' t mean one shit to me if those women are transphobic or not, all I care about is that they should have the right to choose whether or not the person who shares the room with them has a penis.

Because the likelihood of a woman sorrounded by women to be abused by them is still less then the likelihood for a woman being sorrounded by men.

Yep, and you know why that is? Because we have female bodies and as such we were socialized as females. We' re less dangerous because of that. Unlike trans natal males.

I'm giving back: WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME!

Oh, you mean like we have done for the past decades just so that a bunch of men could steal and defund them?

Next time you' ll tell me to grow a uterus and a second X chromosome.

Because that totally won't screw over women with chromosomal anomalies. And everyone having to wait an hour for the DNA check to run will totally not cause lines to get even worse then they already are. And totally every single establishment will be able to afford and maintain the expensive scientific equipment necessary to run those tests just to satisfy your paranoia. And they will totally never break down or give false positives. And forcebly outing transgender people will totally not result in them getting attacked. And this will totally not be regarded a violation of personal rights. And this will totally...

Women with genetic anomalies should be recognized as such, and anyway I said that there is an easier way to do it: just test them once, put the information in an electronic ID and make segregated spaces open only for the ones with the right credentials. In the UK you can get to a train in the subway by passing a badge, I don' t see why this should be different.

Or, you know, you could just get over your irrational, paranoid fear of the personj in the cubicle next to you having different gonads than you.

Or, you know, you could grow some respect for women and stay the fuck away from their spaces? Also, I don' t have irrational fear of testicles-havers, I just fucking loathe the ones who want to shit on women for their own special whims, especially if they then pretend that the same things they are worried about magically lose importance for women. Men are dangerous so trans women don' t want to share spaces with them? Those poor brave souls, of course they have problems with that! Men are dangerous so women don' t want to share spaces with them? Those fucking naziTERFs need to get over it!

because abusive husbands/pimps/humans traffickers will totally not take control of this ID to keep their victims from getting help at rape shelters. And these will totally be impossible to fake. And these will totally be accessible to women imported by human traffickers. And these will totally be given out free of charge. And these will totally...

In those cases, a blood test will do. Sweetheart, it' s really not as hard as you pretend it is: for people who can have that id, they can use it. People who don' t have it for whatever reason get a blood test. I am pretty sure that shelters make medical tests, including blood tests, anyway, so it' s not really something so weird and excruciating that it can' t be done.

which is why a lot of transgender people argue for gender neutral spaces. Which gender critical people always fight against. Funny that.

Again, I have never seen it, and every single trans person I have asked said "nope, we want yours". Also, considering the stupid shit they have managed to pass, I have serious doubts that if they were really committed to it, they wouldn' t be able to do it. As for GC, again, we are against neutral spaces when they replace male-female ones. We don' t give a damn if third spaces are built, go for it: trans people are just not going to use them, though.

othing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

So exactly like most trans natal males, except trans natal males get to hush women who complain out?

except that there are only the spaces of their gender identity and their birth sex. If you forbid a transgender from using the space of their gender identity, you are forcing them to use the one of their birth sex.

I thought they were fighting non-stop for third spaces? If they wanted them, they would have them. And it' s not my problem if a man doesn' t want to use the men' s bathroom.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Thanks that you agree. Let's just make shelters for victims of domestic violence and/or sexual abuse, without regard for sex or gender.

You start, I will follow... not.

Now you are just playing stupid word games. "Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

I am not playing any game, this is what it' s defined as, identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Even if it were about gender identity, as I told you already, I don' t have one. So according to your own definition, I am not a woman. So I guess I am part of the LGBTQ+++++ community, and let me tell you: the community is full of toxic bullshit.

It does cure the disconect in so far, as after the physical transition the gender identity and the physical body are in a better allignment with each other, causing a significant improvement to psychological wellbeing.

If it cured that disconnection, you would have no problems with being referred as your biological sex because you would be ok with being your biological sex.

actually, rather the opposite. The btter the pass, the rarer the misgendering the easier it is to put up with the occasional mistake by others (though intentional misgendering is still extremly rude).

I' ll believe it when I see it.

That was your idea.

Are you familiar with the concept of sarcasm?

For transgender people it is a big deal, because having the wrong letter there forcibly outs them to anyone checking their papers which, when dealing with a transphobe, can be quite dangerous. And what chaos are you talking about?

So it is for me, because it means that women become what men say women are and we are supposed to pretend that it' s totally ok sharing rape shelters and locker rooms with men.

you are the one making the demand that would requierre this.

I am not, you' re the one who said that I need to find a word for social roles if woman and man are for biological sex. I am perfectly happy with calling trans natal males men and trans natal females women.

Also, you were complaining in another comment that if woman and man are biological terms, then there isn' t a word to describe women and passing trans natal males (and men and passing trans natal females) because it would be unacceptable to not have those terms: by that logic, the transgender narrative creates a word in which adult human females do not have words to describe themselves. Why is that ok?

why? Why does this matter to you so much? If it's all cubicles, and you aren't exposed to anyone, why does it matter what kind of gonads the person in the next cubicle has? Can you name any concrete (not some nebulous answer of "Dignity" or something like that) harm from that?

You have made three different links about criticism of unisex spaces. Read those without the bias.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

Correct, and I refuse to make things worse by supporting men in women' s spaces.

And I really don't get your sticking point. Why does you thinking the person in question to have the same gonads as you cause you to no longer have a problem with them?

Because she was likely socialized similarly as me, which means that she is less likely to be abusive (and in case she is abusive I still have more chances to fight her off). Because the space is for her as well, so it wouldn' t be a man feeling entitled to something that is not his. This is like asking me why I would be ok if my brother used his spare keys to enter my house and wait for me there instead of a stalker breaking in. Yes, there are chances that my brother might be there for less than good reasons, but there is also a strong chance that he is just there to hang out with me, unlike a stalker.

It is a better solution than your deranged, irrational paranoia.

Well, that really opened my eyes and now I am in agreement with you.

That was sarcasm, in case you didn' t understand it.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

It means being treated as a second rate citizen, someone somewhat inferior to men, someone who is going to be a mother eventually because that' s what she is supposed to do, someone who becomes unwantable after 30, someone who is going to be a crazy cat owner by 50 uf they don' t get fucked enough, a sex object, someone less intelligent, someone who should stick to feminine roles. Add the issues with biology.

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

You are dense or are you just pretending to be stupid? Socialization is about trends. This is what happens to a large number of women all around the World. That there is a miniscule fraction of them that doesn' t live through it doesn' t mean that it doesn' t affect most of us.

is it a trend or universal? You claimed that this were the experience of all women, regardless of which society or social enviroment they were raised in.

Because a biological woman that is a woman and has been raped by an ejaculator is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with an ejaculator and totally only going to the female-only' s shelter out of bigotry against her trans sisters.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

i can play that stupid game, too, you know. It doesn' t mean one shit to me if those women are transphobic or not, all I care about is that they should have the right to choose whether or not the person who shares the room with them has a penis.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

there is an easier way to do it: just test them once, put the information in an electronic ID and make segregated spaces open only for the ones with the right credentials. In the UK you can get to a train in the subway by passing a badge, I don' t see why this should be different.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you, b.) the subway operator doesn't have to give the badge to everyone, just people who are likely to use the subway and have paid for that. Your system would requiere at the very least every single woman to be given such a badge, c.) it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks and d.) you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

In those cases, a blood test will do. Sweetheart, it' s really not as hard as you pretend it is: for people who can have that id, they can use it. People who don' t have it for whatever reason get a blood test. I am pretty sure that shelters make medical tests, including blood tests, anyway, so it' s not really something so weird and excruciating that it can' t be done.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Again, I have never seen it, and every single trans person I have asked said "nope, we want yours".

Links please.

nothing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

So exactly like most trans natal males, except trans natal males get to hush women who complain out?

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If two women with no violent history are grouped together in a shelter then there is no problem.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Trans women arte women and quite a lot of them do have testicles. Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

"Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

I am not playing any game, this is what it' s defined as, identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Even if it were about gender identity, as I told you already, I don' t have one. So according to your own definition, I am not a woman. So I guess I am part of the LGBTQ+++++ community, and let me tell you: the community is full of toxic bullshit.

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

If it cured that disconnection, you would have no problems with being referred as your biological sex because you would be ok with being your biological sex.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

So it is for me, because it means that women become what men say women are

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

we are supposed to pretend that it' s totally ok sharing rape shelters and locker rooms with men.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

by that logic, the transgender narrative creates a word in which adult human females do not have words to describe themselves. Why is that ok?

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" ( https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/l03mpp/see_comment_i_think_this_comic_actually_brings_up/ )

You have made three different links about criticism of unisex spaces. Read those without the bias.

I did read. But I send you back the request to read the article without bias either, because it also mentioned the reasoning behind introducing such spaces.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

Correct, and I refuse to make things worse by supporting men in women' s spaces.

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

Because she was likely socialized similarly as me, which means that she is less likely to be abusive

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

and in case she is abusive I still have more chances to fight her off

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Because the space is for her as well, so it wouldn' t be a man feeling entitled to something that is not his.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise. Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women. Most of them keep their male genitalia intact. Many of them have no problem sending dissident women death and rape threats (and quite often said threats include mentions of their "girldicks"). And they retain male patterns of criminality. Not all males commit violent crimes, but most of violent criminals are males. And sex offenders are overwhelmingly males.

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" (

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth. Though, thanks to modern medical technology, your parents very likely knew your sex before you were born.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise.

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.[5] ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sexuality )

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

No, you don’t decide what I can say or not. “Woman”, “man”, “female”, and “male” are all based on biological sex. “Gender identity” is term coined in mid-20th century and it has only become more used in recent years. Through most of human history people didn’t have a concept of “gender identity”. Even today, lots of people don’t care about “gender identity”. I don’t believe in this stuff and I don’t have a gender identity. I just know I’m a woman.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.5

Can I assume those numbers are based on gender identity rather than sex? I guess so, considering the usage of the word lesbian. So, I’ll exclude the queer ones because that could mean whatever. So, according to this, at least 63% of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women (27% same gender attracted + 20% bisexual + 16% pansexual + an unknown number from the queers and those who didn’t answer). And 63% > 37%. Thank you very much to prove my point.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

This study from Sweden shows that transsexuals undergoing “SRS” have similar criminal rates than male controls.

In 2018, Unesco said single sex bathrooms are need to secure girls’ access to education.

In the UK, statistics about sexual assaults in public swimming pools show unisex changing rooms increase the risk of such incidents for women.

Here is a compilation of the many threats sent to J.K. Rowling. Oh, and do you remember when JKR was declared dead after a misrepresentation of her last book? More examples of the kind of threats sent by transactivists here, here, here, here, and here. And here is an example of my country, where a trans natal male attacked a radical feminist trying to talk about prostitution in gathering previous to International Women’s Day in 2019. Why should women accept to share intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, etcetera with these males? Oh, and surely, you’ve heard of Jessica Yaniv and Karen White, right? Again, why should women accept males, not matter how they identify, in sex-segregated spaces?

Not all males, whether they are trans or not, commit violent crimes but most of violent criminals are males. Women can’t tell who is a dangerous male and who isn’t a first glance. But even in the case of male who won’t hurt a fly, well, sorry, but they are not entitled to enter to such places because women want privacy in addition to safety there. If trans natal males don’t want to share places like bathrooms, etcetera with regular males, then they can campaign for third spaces.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

And I’m explaining how transactivists misuse those terms.