QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

It means being treated as a second rate citizen, someone somewhat inferior to men, someone who is going to be a mother eventually because that' s what she is supposed to do, someone who becomes unwantable after 30, someone who is going to be a crazy cat owner by 50 uf they don' t get fucked enough, a sex object, someone less intelligent, someone who should stick to feminine roles. Add the issues with biology.

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

You are dense or are you just pretending to be stupid? Socialization is about trends. This is what happens to a large number of women all around the World. That there is a miniscule fraction of them that doesn' t live through it doesn' t mean that it doesn' t affect most of us.

is it a trend or universal? You claimed that this were the experience of all women, regardless of which society or social enviroment they were raised in.

Because a biological woman that is a woman and has been raped by an ejaculator is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with an ejaculator and totally only going to the female-only' s shelter out of bigotry against her trans sisters.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

i can play that stupid game, too, you know. It doesn' t mean one shit to me if those women are transphobic or not, all I care about is that they should have the right to choose whether or not the person who shares the room with them has a penis.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

there is an easier way to do it: just test them once, put the information in an electronic ID and make segregated spaces open only for the ones with the right credentials. In the UK you can get to a train in the subway by passing a badge, I don' t see why this should be different.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you, b.) the subway operator doesn't have to give the badge to everyone, just people who are likely to use the subway and have paid for that. Your system would requiere at the very least every single woman to be given such a badge, c.) it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks and d.) you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

In those cases, a blood test will do. Sweetheart, it' s really not as hard as you pretend it is: for people who can have that id, they can use it. People who don' t have it for whatever reason get a blood test. I am pretty sure that shelters make medical tests, including blood tests, anyway, so it' s not really something so weird and excruciating that it can' t be done.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Again, I have never seen it, and every single trans person I have asked said "nope, we want yours".

Links please.

nothing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

So exactly like most trans natal males, except trans natal males get to hush women who complain out?

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If two women with no violent history are grouped together in a shelter then there is no problem.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Trans women arte women and quite a lot of them do have testicles. Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

"Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

I am not playing any game, this is what it' s defined as, identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Even if it were about gender identity, as I told you already, I don' t have one. So according to your own definition, I am not a woman. So I guess I am part of the LGBTQ+++++ community, and let me tell you: the community is full of toxic bullshit.

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

If it cured that disconnection, you would have no problems with being referred as your biological sex because you would be ok with being your biological sex.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

So it is for me, because it means that women become what men say women are

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

we are supposed to pretend that it' s totally ok sharing rape shelters and locker rooms with men.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

by that logic, the transgender narrative creates a word in which adult human females do not have words to describe themselves. Why is that ok?

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" ( https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/l03mpp/see_comment_i_think_this_comic_actually_brings_up/ )

You have made three different links about criticism of unisex spaces. Read those without the bias.

I did read. But I send you back the request to read the article without bias either, because it also mentioned the reasoning behind introducing such spaces.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

Correct, and I refuse to make things worse by supporting men in women' s spaces.

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

Because she was likely socialized similarly as me, which means that she is less likely to be abusive

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

and in case she is abusive I still have more chances to fight her off

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Because the space is for her as well, so it wouldn' t be a man feeling entitled to something that is not his.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise. Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women. Most of them keep their male genitalia intact. Many of them have no problem sending dissident women death and rape threats (and quite often said threats include mentions of their "girldicks"). And they retain male patterns of criminality. Not all males commit violent crimes, but most of violent criminals are males. And sex offenders are overwhelmingly males.

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" (

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth. Though, thanks to modern medical technology, your parents very likely knew your sex before you were born.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise.

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.[5] ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sexuality )

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

No, you don’t decide what I can say or not. “Woman”, “man”, “female”, and “male” are all based on biological sex. “Gender identity” is term coined in mid-20th century and it has only become more used in recent years. Through most of human history people didn’t have a concept of “gender identity”. Even today, lots of people don’t care about “gender identity”. I don’t believe in this stuff and I don’t have a gender identity. I just know I’m a woman.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.5

Can I assume those numbers are based on gender identity rather than sex? I guess so, considering the usage of the word lesbian. So, I’ll exclude the queer ones because that could mean whatever. So, according to this, at least 63% of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women (27% same gender attracted + 20% bisexual + 16% pansexual + an unknown number from the queers and those who didn’t answer). And 63% > 37%. Thank you very much to prove my point.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

This study from Sweden shows that transsexuals undergoing “SRS” have similar criminal rates than male controls.

In 2018, Unesco said single sex bathrooms are need to secure girls’ access to education.

In the UK, statistics about sexual assaults in public swimming pools show unisex changing rooms increase the risk of such incidents for women.

Here is a compilation of the many threats sent to J.K. Rowling. Oh, and do you remember when JKR was declared dead after a misrepresentation of her last book? More examples of the kind of threats sent by transactivists here, here, here, here, and here. And here is an example of my country, where a trans natal male attacked a radical feminist trying to talk about prostitution in gathering previous to International Women’s Day in 2019. Why should women accept to share intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, etcetera with these males? Oh, and surely, you’ve heard of Jessica Yaniv and Karen White, right? Again, why should women accept males, not matter how they identify, in sex-segregated spaces?

Not all males, whether they are trans or not, commit violent crimes but most of violent criminals are males. Women can’t tell who is a dangerous male and who isn’t a first glance. But even in the case of male who won’t hurt a fly, well, sorry, but they are not entitled to enter to such places because women want privacy in addition to safety there. If trans natal males don’t want to share places like bathrooms, etcetera with regular males, then they can campaign for third spaces.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

And I’m explaining how transactivists misuse those terms.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

is it a trend or universal? You claimed that this were the experience of all women, regardless of which society or social enviroment they were raised in.

All women are treated in a different way than men. The way they are treated differently is not the same, but they all face double standards and different treatments than men.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

So trans women' s feelings are more important than a woman' s feelings and safety?

I told you I can play that game as well.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you

It makes a point of having distinct categories based on realities and gives people the option of choosing.

the subway operator doesn't have to give the badge to everyone, just people who are likely to use the subway and have paid for that. Your system would requiere at the very least every single woman to be given such a badge

I don' t see the problem with that. Plus, I am not really sure how it works in other countries, but in mine we have sanitary electronic badges so they could be easily modified to be read by a reader outside of those places or do it with ID documents in general as long as they are electronic. You don' t need a different badge, you can use the ones you already have.

it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks

Why? You don' t have to show those badges to anyone besides the automatic reader in front of those spaces. Plus, if you don' t have the necessary qualification to use that space, only an idiot would still use the badge and be left out publicly for it.

you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

And? If we could adapt pretty much all spaces to accomodate people with disabilities, we can put a reader in front of sex segregated spaces.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Blood tests are neither intrusive of expensive.

Links please.

Ask reddit to reinstate the old debate sub and I will look into the old threads to find them. Mask is one of the posters who have that attitude in general, they claim they support sex segregation for certain things and refuse it for everything else, but even for the things they support, they say that it' s useless to fight for third spaces.

EDIT: Here is a story of a trans natal male trying to set up a shelter for trans people (with help from both liberal and radical feminists) just to have his idea shot down by trans people who wanted to use shelters of their preferred sex. Hannah Mouncey threw a hissy fit because the women who were playing with him didn' t want to share showers and locker rooms with him: he commented with "And the reason I’m not liked is because I told our manager, and by extension those players, exactly where he and they could go in trying to tell me where I could change and shower.".

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I don' t know, but I don' t care much: I am 100% in agreement with men being thrown out of women' s spaces, and 100% in disagreement with women being thrown out of women' s spaces because they object to men being there. SO to me, one woman being kicked out is one too many, while 100 men being kicked out are not enough.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Trans women arte women

Trans women are men.

Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

Because that person is not a woman.

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

You can call that gender identity as much as you want, it isn' t. It' s either a mental illness or the result of strict social pressures. You are talking like an incensed Christian extremist who wants to force everyone to believe in the original sin. I don' t believe in gender identity, you can tell me I have one as much as you want, I consider it as stupid as telling me that I need to be baptized to clean Adam and Eve' s eating that fucking apple.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

You wouldn' t have fixed that tv if the tv wasn' t broken to begin with. If it' s not broken, it doesn' t need to be fixed.

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

If women who identify as men were half as aggressive as men who identify as women, and biological men were half as conditioned to be accepting as biological women are, we would have the same push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood. And I would be against that as well. But yes, any woman who is trying to re-define manhood is attempting to do the same thing and I am against it. The difference is that men laugh in women' s face when they try to do it and those women keep whining about it and nothing else. WHen that happens because men do it to women, we get threatened.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

They are men who call themselves women.

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" ( https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/l03mpp/see_comment_i_think_this_comic_actually_brings_up/ )

AFAB/AMAB are intersex terms that the trans community has stolen (like pretty much everything else). Intersex people have serious reasons to define themselves as assigned one sex or another because their sexual developmental disorder makes it impossible, at birth, to be 100% correct in that assumption. People who are not intersex are not "assigned" a sex, we are observed to belong to one sex or another.

Also, Sophie Labelle, really? I am supposed to follow the lead of a furry who gets off on roleplaying as a child? ROLE MODEL! 👍

I did read. But I send you back the request to read the article without bias either, because it also mentioned the reasoning behind introducing such spaces.

Including protection for women and respect for their privacy.

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

You do that, I care about women more than I care about men who call themselves women.

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

I assume they have had similar experiences as me when it comes to their bodies and sex, unlike males.

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Yes, and no. Women on testosterone might be stronger than me, but they still end up being far weaker than any man, transitioned or not. SO yes, I have more chances to win a fight against CHase Strangio than I have to win a fight against Laverne Cox.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

I don' t demand constant checks in the least, them passing a badge in front of a reader is not "constant" checks. They have their sex listed together with any other information that can be useful in one way or another. If they didn' t want to do it, they would be free to use those third spaces you keep claiming that every single one of you wants and is fighting for.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

All women are treated in a different way than men. The way they are treated differently is not the same, but they all face double standards and different treatments than men.

than it is meaningless to talk about "female socialization" as a singular thing that has any bearing towards asumptions about likely behavior.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

So trans women' s feelings are more important than a woman' s feelings and safety?

when the only reason for your "bad feelings" are your transphobia, yes. And you still, after days of discussion, have not been able to produce any statistical evidence proving that the adoption of trans-inclusive policies by women's shelters leads to a significant rise in violent/sexual predatory behavior.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you

It makes a point of having distinct categories based on realities and gives people the option of choosing.

what "option of choosing" does it give anyone to force people into the bathroom of their birth sex?

I don' t see the problem with that. Plus, I am not really sure how it works in other countries, but in mine we have sanitary electronic badges so they could be easily modified to be read by a reader outside of those places or do it with ID documents in general as long as they are electronic. You don' t need a different badge, you can use the ones you already have.

I have never heard of any such thing. What would even be the reasoning behind some electronic badge just to use the restroom? Sounds utterly absurd.

it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks

Why? You don' t have to show those badges to anyone besides the automatic reader in front of those spaces. Plus, if you don' t have the necessary qualification to use that space, only an idiot would still use the badge and be left out publicly for it.

are you really asking why forcing a stealth transgender person to use the restroom of their birth sex is forciebly outing them? Which, as I already linked significantly increases their risk of being attacked ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html )

you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

And? If we could adapt pretty much all spaces to accomodate people with disabilities, we can put a reader in front of sex segregated spaces.

with the difference that accomondations for people with disabilities allows people who would otherwise not be able to participate in society to do so, while your over-the-top transphobic plan instead keeps people from particiüpating in society for no other reason than your bigotry.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Blood tests are neither intrusive of expensive.

It costs roughly 1000 $ to sequence a human genome 1 and demanding a blood test for me to use the restroom shure as hell is intrusive.

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I don' t know, but I don' t care much: I am 100% in agreement with men being thrown out of women' s spaces, and 100% in disagreement with women being thrown out of women' s spaces because they object to men being there. SO to me, one woman being kicked out is one too many, while 100 men being kicked out are not enough.

reread what I wrote again. I talked about non-transgender womenh (aka how you define "women") getting kicked out of the women's restroom due to being mistaken for transgender. I have actually seen calculations, that, even if one were to be able to tell with 99% accuracy which one is trans and which is not, it would (due to transgender people being such a small minority) STILL result in more women being falsly thrown out than transgender women being kept out. So the over-agressive bathroom-policing of the kind you are advocating for harms more non-transgender women than transgender women.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

trans women are women, and quite often have testicles.

Trans women arte women

Trans women are men.

trans women are women.

Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

Because that person is not a woman.

except she is. So, again, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans? Can you answer that question without resorting to bigotry?

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

You can call that gender identity as much as you want, it isn' t.

It is.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

You wouldn' t have fixed that tv if the tv wasn' t broken to begin with. If it' s not broken, it doesn' t need to be fixed.

The analogy clearly went over your head.

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

If women who identify as men were half as aggressive as men who identify as women, and biological men were half as conditioned to be accepting as biological women are, we would have the same push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood.

In what way don't we see the same "push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood" ? In both cases people who acording to your bioessentialist definitions have no claim to the terms "men"/"women" demand inclusion in these terms, effectively demanding them both to be redifined as social categories, not biological ones.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

They are men who call themselves women.

They are women who happen to be trans.

Also, Sophie Labelle, really? I am supposed to follow the lead of a furry who gets off on roleplaying as a child? ROLE MODEL! 👍

I was talking about the comments below. Sophie Labelle isn't all that popular in that sub either, just a few days ago there was a well-received post in that sub calling for her cancellation.

Including protection for women and respect for their privacy.

That privacy is already secured due to cubicles.

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

I assume they have had similar experiences as me when it comes to their bodies and sex, unlike males.

Not really. Gender dysphoria causes the relationship of transgender people towards their body and the development of said body to be very much different from a cisgender of the same birth sexe's experience with their body and their bodies development.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

than it is meaningless to talk about "female socialization" as a singular thing that has any bearing towards asumptions about likely behavior.

You are entitled to think that.

when the only reason for your "bad feelings" are your transphobia, yes. And you still, after days of discussion, have not been able to produce any statistical evidence proving that the adoption of trans-inclusive policies by women's shelters leads to a significant rise in violent/sexual predatory behavior.

My reason for that is considering material reality more important than feelings. And after days of debating, you still don' t get that even if there were no attacks from men in those shelters, those men should still not be there.

what "option of choosing" does it give anyone to force people into the bathroom of their birth sex?

I have no clue what this sentence mean.

I have never heard of any such thing. What would even be the reasoning behind some electronic badge just to use the restroom? Sounds utterly absurd.

It sounds absurd to you because breaking that rule is beneficial to you.

are you really asking why forcing a stealth transgender person to use the restroom of their birth sex is forciebly outing them? Which, as I already linked significantly increases their risk of being attacked ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html )

I AM NOT TELLING THEM TO USE THEIR BIRTH SEX' S FACILITY, I AM TELLING THEM TO FIGHT FOR THIRD SPACES AND USE THEM, which you keep claiming they do, and yet you keep whining about letting all of you inside your preferred ones. If they are not willing to do it, I don' t care where they go as long as it' s not women' s bathrooms.

with the difference that accomondations for people with disabilities allows people who would otherwise not be able to participate in society to do so, while your over-the-top transphobic plan instead keeps people from particiüpating in society for no other reason than your bigotry.

Nobody is keeping them from participating in society, they just have to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. If that' s too much for them, it' s their problem, not mine.

It costs roughly 1000 $ to sequence a human genome 1 and demanding a blood test for me to use the restroom shure as hell is intrusive.

That stuff is usually done at birth. You keep pretending that this is something that would have to be done every time you use a public space, I already explained how it should be done. Personally, I think that sanitary badges should carry those informations regardless of this stupid debate anyway, so you are barking at the wrong tree.

reread what I wrote again. I talked about non-transgender womenh (aka how you define "women") getting kicked out of the women's restroom due to being mistaken for transgender. I have actually seen calculations, that, even if one were to be able to tell with 99% accuracy which one is trans and which is not, it would (due to transgender people being such a small minority) STILL result in more women being falsly thrown out than transgender women being kept out. So the over-agressive bathroom-policing of the kind you are advocating for harms more non-transgender women than transgender women.

GNC women are being thrown out because they are mistaken for men, and the only reason why there is a surge in that attitude is because men are allowed to be in women' s spaces. WOmen don' t want men there, so they are hyper focused on finding people who might look like that' s not their place. This is entirely on the trans movement. As I said already said, if there were a way to make it fixed who can and who cannot use those spaces, by listing your biological sex, things would settle down again and this wouldn' t happen, or if it happened, those women would be able to show that they have the right to be there. As it is now, everyone can get in, and no surprise there, GNC women are getting the flacks without doing anything wrong, while men who should get flack have all benefits from it.

trans women are women, and quite often have testicles.

Nope.

trans women are women.

Nope.

except she is.

Nope.

It is.

Nope.

The analogy clearly went over your head.

Nope.

In what way don't we see the same "push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood" ? In both cases people who acording to your bioessentialist definitions have no claim to the terms "men"/"women" demand inclusion in these terms, effectively demanding them both to be redifined as social categories, not biological ones.

Expect the women are not threatening with death and torture threads the men who don' t comply, women are more likely to be described as "uterus havers", "birthing body", "menstruator" and similar shit than men are likely to be called "ejaculators", "prostate havers" and "penis person", women' s spaces are more likely to be disrupted and defunded, women are more likely to be cancelled, lesbians are more likely to be called out on their "transphobic" genital preferences...

They are women who happen to be trans.

Nope.

I was talking about the comments below. Sophie Labelle isn't all that popular in that sub either, just a few days ago there was a well-received post in that sub calling for her cancellation.

Still doesn' t change the fact that those terms are intersex terms that nobody except them should use. I definitely won' t, not only because I am not intersex, but also because I already have a perfect word that describes my biology: woman.

That privacy is already secured due to cubicles.

As I already said, you are free to campaign for unisex spaces.

Not really. Gender dysphoria causes the relationship of transgender people towards their body and the development of said body to be very much different from a cisgender of the same birth sexe's experience with their body and their bodies development.

I was talking about the women, not the men who call themselves women. Women are more likely to have similar experiences to me in regards of their bodies. Trans people can have different experiences compared to the ones of members of their sex, but their experiences are still more likely to be similar to that than the ones of people of the other sex.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And after days of debating, you still don' t get that even if there were no attacks from men in those shelters, those men should still not be there.

I absoloutly understand that you want to deny even the most harmless transgender women in need of a women's shelter the help she needs out of pure bigotry. I just don't agree with your bigotry.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you

It makes a point of having distinct categories based on realities and gives people the option of choosing.

what "option of choosing" does it give anyone to force people into the bathroom of their birth sex?

I have no clue what this sentence mean.

That your insane bathroom-policing-plan does not, at all, give anyone any "option of choosing", it takes options away.

I don' t see the problem with that. Plus, I am not really sure how it works in other countries, but in mine we have sanitary electronic badges so they could be easily modified to be read by a reader outside of those places or do it with ID documents in general as long as they are electronic. You don' t need a different badge, you can use the ones you already have.

I have never heard of any such thing. What would even be the reasoning behind some electronic badge just to use the restroom? Sounds utterly absurd.

It sounds absurd to you because breaking that rule is beneficial to you.

I have never used a gender-seperated space opposite to my birth sex, never tried to do so and have no intention of ever doing so. Demanding an electronic badge kust to use the restroom is still absurd, and your ad hominem is deeply misplaced here.

I AM NOT TELLING THEM TO USE THEIR BIRTH SEX' S FACILITY, I AM TELLING THEM TO FIGHT FOR THIRD SPACES AND USE THEM, which you keep claiming they do, and yet you keep whining about letting all of you inside your preferred ones. If they are not willing to do it, I don' t care where they go as long as it' s not women' s bathrooms.

In other words, you just don't want to share a bathroom with the "icky" trans people.

with the difference that accomondations for people with disabilities allows people who would otherwise not be able to participate in society to do so, while your over-the-top transphobic plan instead keeps people from particiüpating in society for no other reason than your bigotry.

Nobody is keeping them from participating in society, they just have to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. If that' s too much for them, it' s their problem, not mine.

Keeping transgender people from being able to live their lives as the gender they identify as is keeping them from fully participating in society.

It costs roughly 1000 $ to sequence a human genome 1 and demanding a blood test for me to use the restroom shure as hell is intrusive.

That stuff is usually done at birth. You keep pretending that this is something that would have to be done every time you use a public space, I already explained how it should be done.

Except it has to be done every time someone, for whatever reason, doesn't have that badge but has to use a gender-seperated space.

Personally, I think that sanitary badges should carry those informations regardless of this stupid debate anyway, so you are barking at the wrong tree.

Again, I have no idea what the heck you are talking about with these "sanitary badges". I have never heard of such a thing, and the concept by itself (needing some form of identification to use the restroom) sounds utterly absurd to me.

reread what I wrote again. I talked about non-transgender womenh (aka how you define "women") getting kicked out of the women's restroom due to being mistaken for transgender. I have actually seen calculations, that, even if one were to be able to tell with 99% accuracy which one is trans and which is not, it would (due to transgender people being such a small minority) STILL result in more women being falsly thrown out than transgender women being kept out. So the over-agressive bathroom-policing of the kind you are advocating for harms more non-transgender women than transgender women.

GNC women are being thrown out because they are mistaken for men, and the only reason why there is a surge in that attitude is because men are allowed to be in women' s spaces. WOmen don' t want men there, so they are hyper focused on finding people who might look like that' s not their place. This is entirely on the trans movement. As I said already said, if there were a way to make it fixed who can and who cannot use those spaces, by listing your biological sex, things would settle down again and this wouldn' t happen, or if it happened, those women would be able to show that they have the right to be there. As it is now, everyone can get in, and no surprise there, GNC women are getting the flacks without doing anything wrong, while men who should get flack have all benefits from it.

This form of over-agressive bathroom policing that harms everyone always experiences a severe upswing whenever transgender exclusion is pushed for.

trans women are women.

Nope.

yes they are.

The analogy clearly went over your head.

Nope.

It clearly did.

women are more likely to be described as "uterus havers", "birthing body", "menstruator" and similar shit than men are likely to be called "ejaculators", "prostate havers" and "penis person"

this is constrained to medical settings, where clarifying anatomical terms are usefull. And, as I clearly expressed in my very first comment on this post, this should absoloutly applied equally for both areas.

women' s spaces are more likely to be disrupted and defunded

no, it's just that men don't complain about trans men in their spaces as much.

lesbians are more likely to be called out on their "transphobic" genital preferences...

the type of transgender person who calls "genital preferences" transphobic exists on both sides, and it's wrong both ways.

Still doesn' t change the fact that those terms are intersex terms that nobody except them should use. I definitely won' t, not only because I am not intersex, but also because I already have a perfect word that describes my biology: woman.

Except, as I have already explained several times, "men" and "women" are terms for social categories (which you are absoloutly free to use to refer to yourself), not biological ones. Therefore, trans men are men (despite having a female birth sex) and trans women are women (despite having a male birth sex). Calling trans men women or calling trans women men is deeply offensive. Therefore the transgender community adapted the terms used by the intersex community in order to express birth sex where this information is needed.

Not really. Gender dysphoria causes the relationship of transgender people towards their body and the development of said body to be very much different from a cisgender of the same birth sexe's experience with their body and their bodies development.

I was talking about the women, not the men who call themselves women. Women are more likely to have similar experiences to me in regards of their bodies. Trans people can have different experiences compared to the ones of members of their sex, but their experiences are still more likely to be similar to that than the ones of people of the other sex.

Transgender men also have very different experiences regarding their bodies than cisgender women. Because they experience it as someone with a male gender identity, meaning that sexed development that would be felt as "correct" for someone with a female gender identity would feel utterly and deeply wrong to them.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

You do that, I care about women more than I care about men who call themselves women.

No, you don't. What you actually care for is needlessly tormenting transgender people. If you cared about people, you would aknowledge that the kind of irrational, paranoid bathroom-policing you are advocating for harms transgender people 2 including transgender men (which you would call "women") while providing no benefit in terms of safety/privacy to women at all 3.

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Yes, and no. Women on testosterone might be stronger than me, but they still end up being far weaker than any man, transitioned or not. SO yes, I have more chances to win a fight against CHase Strangio than I have to win a fight against Laverne Cox.

a.) wrong, there is a significant overlap in physical ability between the sexes, even leaving out transgender people. b.) wrong, tell that to the women who were scared of fighting Mack Beggs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs ). c.) wrong, even a single year on HRT causes the strength differences between transgender women and transgender men to shrink to next to nothing ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652261/#:~:text=A%20decrease%20in%20grip%20strength,to%2Dmale%20trans%20people). ). Longer term HRT is almost certainly going to result in transgender men being stronger.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

I don' t demand constant checks in the least, them passing a badge in front of a reader is not "constant" checks.

Yes, that is constant checks. A person should not need a ID-Bagde to use a public bathroom. That is simply absurd.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No, you don't. What you actually care for is needlessly tormenting transgender people.

I don' t give a damn about "tormenting" transgender people, if they stayed in their lane, I wouldn' t even think of them. This is 100% the result of them invading spaces that are not theirs.

If you cared about people, you would aknowledge that the kind of irrational, paranoid bathroom-policing you are advocating for harms transgender people 2 including transgender men (which you would call "women") while providing no benefit in terms of safety/privacy to women at all 3.

Women who identify as men support the same ideology as men who identify as women. As I already told you more than once, I have no problem with them getting their spaces, they don' t want them. And if they are allowed to not want them and shit on women' s rights and dignity, then I am allowed to not want mixed spaces either.

a.) wrong, there is a significant overlap in physical ability between the sexes, even leaving out transgender people.

This doesn' t address the issue anyway: yes, there are stronger women and weaker men, I would still take my chance with a woman than a man.

b.) wrong, tell that to the women who were scared of fighting Mack Beggs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs ).

Yes, because, as I said, testosterone makes women stronger. Doesn' t mean it makes them as strong as a man. Furthermore, I think the issue here was more about having a woman taking a drug that is considered doping than anything else.

c.) wrong, even a single year on HRT causes the strength differences between transgender women and transgender men to shrink to next to nothing ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652261/#:~:text=A%20decrease%20in%20grip%20strength,to%2Dmale%20trans%20people). ). Longer term HRT is almost certainly going to result in transgender men being stronger.

Again, I have already said at least twice that I acknwoledge that they are stronger than a regular woman, I would still prefer fighting Chase Strangio over Laverne Cox.

Yes, that is constant checks. A person should not need a ID-Bagde to use a public bathroom. That is simply absurd.

A person shouldn' t need to see "women' s only" and then find a man there, but here we are. And no, a constant check is continuous medical exams as far as I am concerned, passing a badge is a check in the same way passing my university badge to record my presence at a lesson was a constant check.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

No, you don't. What you actually care for is needlessly tormenting transgender people.

I don' t give a damn about "tormenting" transgender people, if they stayed in their lane, I wouldn' t even think of them. This is 100% the result of them invading spaces that are not theirs.

That has honestly to me the same vibe as a white supremacist saying that he wouldn't think about black people as long as they "know their place". Transgender acceptance means accepting them as the gender they identify as, not forciebly segreggating them in regards to public accomondations.

Women who identify as men support the same ideology as men who identify as women. As I already told you more than once, I have no problem with them getting their spaces, they don' t want them. And if they are allowed to not want them and shit on women' s rights and dignity, then I am allowed to not want mixed spaces either.

you still haven't shown how women's rights are "being shat on". As I already linked 1, there is no such thing as "sex-based rights". There is a prohibition of sex-based discrimination with exemptions subject to practicality, which does requiere proportionality. And you have not shown how transgender inclusion is such a violation of women's dignity to justify the kind of over-the-top response you are advocating for.

b.) wrong, tell that to the women who were scared of fighting Mack Beggs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs ).

Yes, because, as I said, testosterone makes women stronger. Doesn' t mean it makes them as strong as a man.

Mack Beggs clearly was of the opinion, that he wasn't particulary weaker than men, otherwise he wouldn't have asked to be able to compete with them.

Furthermore, I think the issue here was more about having a woman taking a drug that is considered doping than anything else.

The issue is a man beinjg forced to compete with women by transphobic rules.

A person shouldn' t need to see "women' s only" and then find a man there, but here we are.

And with your type of bathroom policing that becomes more likely, as you are forcing trans men, who are men and can easily look the part, into the women's bathroom.

passing a badge is a check in the same way passing my university badge to record my presence at a lesson was a constant check.

never had to do this when I was at university (computer room was the only exception, for obvious reasons), and yes, I would consider it "constant checks" if I had to prove my birth sex every time I want to use the restroom.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Listen, this is useless and neither of us is going to change each other' s mind. So you keep doing your thing, and I will keep doing mine.

Have a good night.