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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The concerns that have been dismissed as "mere bigotry" have already been refuted. And why do you think it's only women who can't bring up those concerns - do you think there has never been a man these arguments and had been similarily dismissed?

Do you think the preference of gender identity over sex affects both men and women equally? Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment? You keep saying we can't know what genitals a person have without pulling down their pants, but many transactivists never have a doubt about what kind of person to send the death and rape threats.

I'm pretty sure (since you mentioned abortion restrictions in this context) they aren't pushing for harsher restrictions there.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too. I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

However, the gender identity law has been used to erase sex segreggated spaces. A few examples:

A trans natal male convicted of violence against women was sent to a women's prisson where he impregnated a fellow inmate.

A trans natal female was sent to a men's prisson despite her protests. Sorry, I'm not sure if there is a version in English of this story

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this. Any trans identified person is allowed to request hormonal treatment on demand. This include minors as long they have their parent's approval. Hormonal treatment for them includes puberty blockers, which are said to be reversible in local media. Surgeries on minors are allowed with parental aproval and a judicial order. I've read a news story where a 16 year-old natal female was allowed to undergone a double mastectomy on this basis. News stories regarding trans identified kids read more like propaganda. Keira Bell's case was barely covered here. I can give you links if you want, but they are all in Spanish.

the desire to be perceived as and treated as the sex of the gender identity they identify as. Let me bring an example. I know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment?

the same treatment? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I hardly think that a man bringing fourth the exact same arguments wouldn't have them dismissed as bigotry either.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too.

Of course they were. Why wouldn't they, given what the legal situation regarding abortions was before (going of your description)

I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant". The transgender rights movement was argueing for the law in question to be changed to fix this oversight. Gender Critical feminists were fighting against this change, meaning they were literally forcing this man to carry a pregnancy against his will. That is why inclusive language is important, and it is a lot more than mere "hurt genderfeelz".

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex. Due to the hightend muscle mass resulting from HRT, the transgender man was signigicantly stronger then his competitor, resulting in his competitor being injured. Then this story was taken by gender critical people and misrepresented in such a way, that readers were left under the impression, that this had been a case of a transgender woman beating up some vastly outmatchend non-transgender woman.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this.

and what does changing ones legal gender mean in practice (other than changing what is on the passport - by the way, the personal ID in my country doesn't even list gender or sex)?

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

That, when you look at them, you perceive them instinctivly as sex/gender whose gender identity they are, and act acording to this perception. So, essentially, a transgender women/transgender man wants that, when a onlooker with no knowledge of them being trans perceives them, this onlooker perceives a woman/man, and treat them like the onlooker would treat a non-transgender woman/man doing the same things.

I remeber that there was a post about the mixed feelings transgender people experience over poor treatment based on being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are (say, for example, transgender women experiencing sexual harassement from men (mixed, because it is simultanously feeling bad over the poor treatment and feeling good over being perceived the way they want to). For the transgender men, I don't recall what their experiences in this regard were about, but there were some). So for the gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man example, imagine him walking by an onlooker, that despises crossdressers. If the onlooker perceives the gnc-trans man as a man wearing a dress, the onlookers reaction will be very different from them perceiving a woman wearing a dress. So, if this onlookers reaction will be in line with perceiving the gnc-trans man as a man, the trans man will be left with this mixed feeling, on the one hand succeding at being perceived the way he wants to, on the other of course the negative feeling from being treated poorly. For positive or neutral actions obviously there isn't such a negative feeling, meaning the general feeling is not mixed. (Note: I chose negative treatment arising from being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are to clarify, that this is not about politely pretending that the transgender man is a man, but about there being no such pretense).

Note, that there is also the desire, that, if the transgender person informs other people over them being transgender, people don't start treating them differently because of that.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant".

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link? Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition. I feel like it's so harmful for any sort of normalization of trans people, if that's what you want, to force males into female sports. It's just so obviously unfair.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link?

well, it is at least a legal possibility https://madspades.tumblr.com/post/622869974338371584 (remembered that part wrong, I think? I'm pretty sure I read something like that).

Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

Transgender men don't say they are women, because they aren't. Transgender men are men. And since they can get pregnant, that case needs to be covered in law's gouverning abortion right.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition.

So if transgender men can't compete in the womens category (due to their hormone levels), and can't compete in the men's category (because you are argueing for birth sex based competition), well, where can they compete? And, no, this is not comparable to someone taking performance enhancing drugs. He didn't take testosterone to improve his performance, he took testosterone to deal with his gender dysphoria.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

Transgender men are as much a part of the transgender issue as transgender women. So whenever people argue against division based on gender identity instead of birth sex, that means sorting cisgender women and transgender men together. And that needs to be pointed out.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well, it is at least a legal possibility https://madspades.tumblr.com/post/622869974338371584 (remembered that part wrong, I think? I'm pretty sure I read something like that).

Okay, so it did not happen.

Transgender men don't say they are women, because they aren't. Transgender men are men. And since they can get pregnant, that case needs to be covered in law's gouverning abortion right.

TMAM and TWAW doesn’t mean anything and can’t be explained. It just shuts down conversation. Only female people can get pregnant. I don’t see any laws needing to changed.

So if transgender men can't compete in the womens category (due to their hormone levels), and can't compete in the men's category (because you are argueing for birth sex based competition), well, where can they compete?

I’m not arguing for birth sex based competition. I don’t think trans people should be participating in competitive sports at all (unless some wants to compete with males, since there is no potential advantage there). As I said before, you give up things when you transition. It’s more important to keep sports fair and safe for women and girls.

And, no, this is not comparable to someone taking performance enhancing drugs. He didn't take testosterone to improve his performance, he took testosterone to deal with his gender dysphoria.

I don’t know why the reason they are taking it matters. The practical outcome is the same.

Transgender men are as much a part of the transgender issue as transgender women.

I just don’t like male trans people hiding behind female trans people. It’s not fair to make females do all the work for you, especially when the issue for sports isn’t about females, it’s about males.