GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Re sports (I’ll address the rest in another comment):

If fairness in sports is not a right, should we abolish age and weight categories? Should disabled people compete against able-bodied people? I’m sure the transabled, the transages and the transweight would like this very much.

And if sports is not a human rights issues, why trans activists claim it is when they are not allowed to participate in sports. Which is a lie since trans athletes are allowed to participate, they are only asked to compete according to their sex. Why sports organizations should validate trans identities?

You’re not saying all the important information about the IOC. Per the document you linked, these were the recommended guidelines for trans natal males in 2003:

Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities Hormonal therapy appropriate by the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender-related advantages in sports competitions. In opinion of this group, eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.

While I don’t agree with these guidelines either, these are much stricter than the issued in 2015. The first requirement in particular is quite limiting for trans athletes considering that most trans don’t undergone genital surgery. So, it’s a reasonable assumption to say we’re going more trans natal males competing in the female’s categories in the next Olympics.

The article of World Athletics is not about the IOC, but the IAAF. Also it’s not about trans athletes, but intersex ones...

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If fairness in sports is not a right, should we abolish age and weight categories? Should disabled people compete against able-bodied people? I’m sure the transabled, the transages and the transweight would like this very much.

fairness in sport is not a right, but it is something that is striven for, because a heavily imbalanced competitiong just isn't very interesting, neither for the atlethes, nor the spectators.

Which is a lie since trans athletes are allowed to participate, they are only asked to compete according to their sex

so, are transgender men that are on HRT allowed to compete in the women's division?

You’re not saying all the important information about the IOC. Per the document you linked, these were the recommended guidelines for trans natal males in 2003:

Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities Hormonal therapy appropriate by the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender-related advantages in sports competitions. In opinion of this group, eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.

While I don’t agree with these guidelines either, these are much stricter than the issued in 2015. The first requirement in particular is quite limiting for trans athletes considering that most trans don’t undergone genital surgery. So, it’s a reasonable assumption to say we’re going more trans natal males competing in the female’s categories in the next Olympics.

The IOC was of the opinion, that requiering a gonadectomy is not compatible with human right and would exclude transgender people from countries where transitioning is illegal 1 , 2 . And, no, as you correctly pointed out, I confused the IOC and the IAAF, which means that the rules for the next olympics are apparently still the same one from the 2015 decision 3. So, no, there will not be suddenly vastly more transgender women competing. Btw. regarding the 10 nmol/L limit in place for the olympics: did you know that the testosterone level for a typical human male is 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L ?

The article of World Athletics is not about the IOC, but the IAAF.

looks like I messed up and confused the IAAF and IOC with each other. My bad.

Also it’s not about trans athletes, but intersex ones...

The rules are the same, and for good reason. Caster Semenya - the person responsible for the IAAF contniously redefining what, for the purpose of elligilability a "woman" is - has an intersex condition called 5α-Reductase deficiency, which, if anything, is closer to male than female. Nevertheless, she identifies as a woman, and deserves to be treated as such. So, there is good reason to treat the two issues analogously.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The IOC was of the opinion, that requiering a gonadectomy is not compatible with human right and would exclude transgender people from countries where transitioning is illegal 1 , 2 . And, no, as you correctly pointed out, I confused the IOC and the IAAF, which means that the rules for the next olympics are apparently still the same one from the 2015 decision 3. So, no, there will not be suddenly vastly more transgender women competing. Btw. regarding the 10 nmol/L limit in place for the olympics: did you know that the testosterone level for a typical human male is 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L ?

The IOC decided against gonadectomy in 2015, not in 2004. So, I stand by what I said: we're going to see more trans natal males in the next Olympics.

Did you know normal leves of testosterone for healthy menstruating women under 40 years are below 2 nmol/l? Even testosterone levels in women with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) don't reach 5nmol/. That is were limit imposed by the IAAF comes from. So, even if current testosterone levels were the only thing that matters in sports (a view I disagree with), the IOC limit is still to high.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/

The rules are the same, and for good reason. Caster Semenya - the person responsible for the IAAF contniously redefining what, for the purpose of elligilability a "woman" is - has an intersex condition called 5α-Reductase deficiency, which, if anything, is closer to male than female. Nevertheless, she identifies as a woman, and deserves to be treated as such. So, there is good reason to treat the two issues analogously.

5α-Reductase deficiency is a DSD only in males. This enzime converts testosterone in dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Males with this condition have unusual looking genitalia due to lack of DHT. They can secrete testosterone, though, and after reaching puberty they undergone virilization due the increase of testosterone. In fact, a considerable percentage of these males who were raised as girls end up adopting a male identity after puberty.

More on 5α-Reductase deficiency:

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK539904/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031759/

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The IOC decided against gonadectomy in 2015, not in 2004. So, I stand by what I said: we're going to see more trans natal males in the next Olympics.

The qualifications for the 2020 olympics haven't finished yet (due to the pandemic), but some qualifications have already taken place. Tell me, how many transgender women are already in the rooster?

Did you know normal leves of testosterone for healthy menstruating women under 40 years are below 2 nmol/l? Even testosterone levels in women with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) don't reach 5nmol/. That is were limit imposed by the IAAF comes from. So, even if current testosterone levels were the only thing that matters in sports (a view I disagree with), the IOC limit is still to high.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/

take it up with the IOC then. Just a question: where are women atlethes with a natural testosterone level higher than whatever you want to set supposed to compete?

The rules are the same, and for good reason. Caster Semenya - the person responsible for the IAAF contniously redefining what, for the purpose of elligilability a "woman" is - has an intersex condition called 5α-Reductase deficiency, which, if anything, is closer to male than female. Nevertheless, she identifies as a woman, and deserves to be treated as such. So, there is good reason to treat the two issues analogously.

5α-Reductase deficiency is a DSD only in males. This enzime converts testosterone in dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Males with this condition have unusual looking genitalia due to lack of DHT. They can secrete testosterone, though, and after reaching puberty they undergone virilization due the increase of testosterone. In fact, a considerable percentage of these males who were raised as girls end up adopting a male identity after puberty.

You do realize that you are actually backing my point here? If someone, who was designated female at birth, was raised as a woman and identifies as a woman, but does actually have "a DSD only in males" (aka, is "male" by your reckoning) wants to compete in the women's division, does it really make sense to treat this case and a transgender case differently?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You do realize that you are actually backing my point here? If someone, who was designated female at birth, was raised as a woman and identifies as a woman, but does actually have "a DSD only in males" (aka, is "male" by your reckoning) wants to compete in the women's division, does it really make sense to treat this case and a transgender case differently?

Eh? I explained what 5α-Reductase deficiency is, but I never said males with 5α-Reductase deficiency should compete in the female's categories. I don't think Caster Semenya belongs in the women's categories. He can compete just fine with the men.

And I've repeated to you several times, most trans identified people haven't any DSD. So, what about stop appropriating their struggles to further your cause?