ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone?

submitted by ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I don’t support any surgery for dysphoria or identities, and can’t see any benefit to removing barriers for extreme cosmetic surgeries.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

The theory is pretty simple: males with gender dysphoria will pursue treatment to alleviate their suffering. Removing this barrier will allow them to do that without having to intrude into your lives and spaces or appropriate your identities. Isn't that an improvement?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

What part of I do not support cosmetic genital surgery to resolve mental distress was unclear?

A large number choose to intrude whether they are obliged to perform femininity or not. They appropriate women’s identities by claiming to be women, not just by deifying gender norms like clothes and makeup.

It solves nothing for women, just makes accessing surgery and women’s spaces afterwards even easier.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

How does it make accessing women's space easier? Pretending to be a woman is a requirement for the surgery, not vice versa.

It's creating a system where the medical establishment is actively encouraging men to enter women's spaces. I don't understand who you think this benefits.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Because most men getting this surgery are saying they are women...they use women’s spaces whether their dick is gone or not. They want to be there. Very few claim they are forced. They actively seek it out.

Men like yourself are even less common than transgender ones.

I don’t think anyone benefits from cosmetic genital surgery, and women do not benefit at all. I don’t care about whether men are benefitting and you will find most women here don’t care either. You personally getting easier access to surgery does not benefit women or anyone else.

A medical establishment that benefits anyone is one that does not perform invasive sterilising surgery on people to alleviate mental distress.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Well if they insist that they're women and use women's spaces, then the barrier of "has to live as a woman" doesn't matter to them, since they're already doing it.

This change would only matter to men like me who don't want to go out in public calling themselves women or using women's spaces.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Right, a tiny handful of men who are not a priority to feminists, and who benefit far more than any woman ever could from such a proposal, whilst also making access even easier for all the other men who think woman is a feeling to get surgery.

Really men are the ones benefitting from this. women get nothing since men are in our spaces regardless of whether or not men have to perform femininity for surgery.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Right, a tiny handful of men who are not a priority to feminists, and who benefit far more than any woman ever could from such a proposal, whilst also making access even easier for all the other men who think woman is a feeling to get surgery.

1: they would already have access to the surgery.

2: I don't get how men having this surgery would hurt women. How does me not having a penis harm you or any other woman?

Really men are the ones benefitting from this. women get nothing since men are in our spaces regardless of whether or not men have to perform femininity for surgery.

Some men might not especially want to pretend to be women or use women's spaces, but do so because it's listed as a requirement to get the surgery. If this change occurred, those men wouldn't do that anymore. I have no interest in using women's spaces but really want this, and would be forced to identify as a woman in order to get it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Men who have the surgery harm women. Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats. Men who have the surgery do not become any less male and do not become magically harmless to females. Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women. It’s removing our right to have those spaces and it’s taking away safety from women.

I suggest finding some basic gc and radfem points and reading them to understand.

Some men might blah blah blah. So? That’s for men to deal with. It doesn’t effect women whether you’re forced to or not, because men are taking our spaces away regardless. What would you like women to do about barriers made by men for men?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats.

This is a problem with society counting these men as women, rather than men getting surgeries.

Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women

They can access these spaces with and without surgery anyways, because surgery in many places isn't even required for a person to be counted as the opposite sex.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Men who have the surgery harm women. Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats. Men who have the surgery do not become any less male and do not become magically harmless to females. Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women. It’s removing our right to have those spaces and it’s taking away safety from women.

All of this applies equally to men who don't have this surgery, so I don't think the surgery is what's causing the problem here.

I suggest finding some basic gc and radfem points and reading them to understand.

I have probably spent several hundred hours of my life reading things written by radical feminists on here, on twitter, and on reddit before GC was banned.

What would you like women to do about barriers made by men for men?

Not deliberately try to keep those barriers in place. For example, in the UK, people who can't get hormone therapy through the NHS with its numerous restrictions and 4 years queue time are ordering it from the EU, and there's been efforts recently by radfems to criminalize that. Could you please not do that? I'm not invading your spaces or anything, can't you stay out of my life as long as I stay out of yours?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The thing is, it may be required for the surgery, but it’s not required for the spaces, and most TW claim to be women and never get the surgery. I think that’s what we’re trying to point out.

Eta- this wasn’t where I meant to put this comment

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

which comment are you trying to reply to?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly I can’t remember I had three people messaging me over three posts I got mixed up, my bad.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would certainly call that an improvement, even if ultimately, it wouldn't change anything. We do not live in a world where male trans people don't want to intrude into women's spaces, surgery or no surgery. In fact, I'd say surgery is undertaken in most cases precisely because they want to intrude in women's spaces and appropriate their identities. Men would still get these surgeries for the sole reason that they think it now changes them into a real woman, and all the usual issues with trans misogyny stem from that idea.

While I would certainly not consider any trend of extreme cosmetic surgeries on healthy human bodies a good thing, if this was just about men wanting to castrate themselves or surgically alter their penises, I would not be opposed to it on feminist grounds. I do think such extreme invasive surgeries need tight gatekeeping due to the amount of mental health issues involved, but ultimately, it's not my choice to make. So I would definitely be in favour of removing the "living as a woman/man" requirement, because my main problem with trans people isn't the fact that they want to get plastic surgeries or hormone therapies (they can do with their bodies what they want as long as I don't have to play along with this game of pretend), it's that they're using plastic surgeries and artificially induced hormonal imbalance as evidence of being the opposite sex and using that to actively advocate backwards patriarchal ideas on women. Requiring "living as a woman" before getting hormones or surgery creates an explicit link between the two, and GC should be opposed to that.