QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification?

submitted by comradeconradical from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Many of us don't mind if trans people use our services in good faith

I thought you agreed that you don't want transes using women's spaces.

Can you expand on your last point? Which trans people in men's bathroom?

My whole point was that that QT argument is also full of holes in the same way that this GC argument is, because it's asking the other side to prove something that will in no way change the asker's opinion.

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Of course I'd prefer no transwomen in spaces made for my sex, but I am willing to compromise. That's why I made this question. I know trans in cross-sex spaces will and has happened, so how can we protect ourselves against those who do this out of bad faith? My ideal solution would be a third space, but failing that, how can we ensure women's safety and ability to speak up about these issues under self-id?

I still don't understand what you mean with your example. The point is to try and fill these holes. If you don't want your opinion changed, as you seem to be projecting, why are you engaging? If you think there are no answers, what's the point of asking any questions on this sub? Accordingly, could you possibly address my questions and realistic concerns instead of wasting time saying there's no point?

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well there's an easy solution to your concern, which is changing self-ID to require 6 months on estrogen. That filters out all the randoms who just want to enter women's bathrooms for peeping reasons, and ensures it will only be gender dysphoric men.

So, if the proposal is changed to that, your purported concern is resolved. Is that satisfactory?

[–]comradeconradical[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

6 months is an arbitrary threshold and does not change sex. Also, it's a very short period of time in the big picture. This is not an adequate solution.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're right that it doesn't change sex, but I thought your objection to "self-ID" was supposed to be that non-trans people would ID as trans, and 6 months is enough that nobody who likes the body they're born with is going to do it.

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

6 months on hormones doesn't make someone imperceptible from the opposite sex though?

Like, you're an adult male. Do you think taking elevated estrogen for 6 monts will make you similar to me, who has been a female for my entire life? Do you think it will make your presence acceptable around female toddlers and children in our spaces?

Self-id doesn't require hormones, but hormones doesn't validate self-id either. That's the real problem. Also how to prove this to keep female spaces safe?

I'm actually very curious: as an adult male who hates his genitals, do you want to access female spaces? Or do you just want to change your body but still acknowledge your male reality and keep female spaces for females?

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like, you're an adult male. Do you think taking elevated estrogen for 6 monts will make you similar to me, who has been a female for my entire life? Do you think it will make your presence acceptable around female toddlers and children in our spaces?

No, not at all. But it does establish that someone is genuinely a trans male and not just a non-trans male pretending to be trans to peep on women on whatever, since people of the latter category are unlikely to go through such convoluted measures as permanently changing their own body. And wasn't that supposed to be your big complaint about "self-ID"?

For the record, I'm not saying I support this policy. I'm saying that, if you don't support this policy, it pretty clearly proves that your issue is with any male using the women's bathroom, not just with potential non-trans males using self-ID to pretend to be trans and sneak in. In which case, I don't understand why you're pretending to be concerned about this when you very clearly don't care whether the self-ID'd trans males are trans or not.

I'm actually very curious: as an adult male who hates his genitals, do you want to access female spaces?

Oh heavens no, I've been on hrt for over 2 years and I've never used the women's bathroom or locker room or anything despite the fact that there's no law in the US stopping me. I identify as male, go by my male name, wear men's clothes, and do my best to present to the rest of the world as a normal man. I just want to be allowed to keep taking hormones because I like the emotional effects of testosterone removal, and some day remove my genitals, and maybe get face surgery to remove some of my more dysphoria-inducing features like my brow ridge so I can stop feeling so anxious all the time.

I don't want you to let men into the women's bathroom, that's a debate for you and the QTs to hammer out between each other, but I think you ought to be honest about why you really dislike self-ID. The talking point has been a pet peeve of mine because I've seen it over and over and over from people whose worry isn't about non-trans males sneaking in, but about trans males coming in, and I just don't think it's honest to pretend that the former is what you're trying to stop when it's really the latter. If you believe in something, come out and say it, don't go coming up with excuses for it.