all 25 comments

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nothing outside of sexual dimorphism is real. Femininity and masculinity are constructs that don’t make any sense as an inherent behaviour.

The removal of leg hair is a fashion. It’s not a behaviour women just have. The ability to grow more body hair and facial hair is masculine, cause it’s caused by testosterone, but removing it is a learned behaviour.

We learn gender like we learn manners. ‘Say please’ ‘good girls don’t do that’ ‘don’t spit’ ‘smile at the rude man’

If it was something inherent, it wouldn’t be something that changes with the times.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I think gender is like language. It's naturally triggered but completed by culture. It can vary but it always has to act within natural norms. Physical strength is always going to be seen as more masculine, smooth skin is always going to be associated with feminine. All societies have masculinity and femininity even if they vary.

[–]Nohope[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why is smooth skin associated with feminine, none of the females I have seen including myself have smooth skin, are you saying I'm less female for not having smooth skin :/

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

[–]Nohope[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you believe gender exists and is biological then? I thought GCs believe gender is not biological and is actually a social construct even if there are differences between the hair, skin, bones, etc of males and females

I have only heard transmedicalists argue gender is biological and is not a social construct, like Blaire White argues gender is biological because of the differences in hair, body, bones, etc of males and females and he says there are male and female brains because he's a transmedicalist; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9WqfBDjRF8

At the end he calls "feminine" men and "masculine" women "defects"

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oof that video was rough. “Men are instinctually drawn to hero roles” “feminine men, masculine women and trans people ... are a genetic defect”

Christ Blaire. So much self hatred.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In most languages in the world there no words for gender at all, thought. And there only "sexist stereotypes", not "gender stereotypes" exist as well - but they are completely synonymous.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not gc and I'm closer to transmedicalists or trans realists. I don't think you can abolish gender.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Benjamin A Boyce is trying to coin the term "gender positive" (on YouTube).

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

yeah I've watched a lot of his content. I'm not sure I agree with him but I appreciate all the interviews he's done.

I'll need to look up his definition video.

A basic question I have for him is he can't really agree with gc that gender can and ought to be abolished. He's really far too essentialist for them. But he also kind of agrees with every anti trans ideology around.

I do agree that a lot of gender theory is an absolute mess.

I do wonder if a new gender theory will emerge. More robust and scientific. But it's so politically difficult. I think it's true that defining the "gender is," can quickly become the "gender ought."

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trans theory defines gender as the identity and social part.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will copy my answer from another topic:

In my perception it is just a made-up things.

And here is why I think like that: through out the history "masculinity" and "femininity" were changing. Men were wearing dresses and make-up, women were praised for having a lot of weight, or feminine was having long neck, and masculine to have scars, and so on. Almost always biological facts were still considered as masculinity and femininity, but things like "men are strong and agressive" were not always considered as "being manly", as in ancient Greece - being smart or rich was more "manly" than being buffed.

So masculinity or femininity in general is a way to describe gender stereotypes of current age and current society. It can be useful to use those labels to fast describe yourself, but at same time it is damaging if used by "wrong people" as diminishing termins or as some rules to which everyone must conform.

For me masculinity and femininity are still tied with biology, and just synonymous to male or female. I have big bias in this, because I am "feminine gay man" and I was helping in PCOS support centers, so for me Butch lesbian or even woman with PCOS and face hair is still feminine, same as transmen, same with "feminine" men or super buffed men, they are both for me same masculine. However, that can offend some LGB people, so I am not often saying this.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those associations are socially constructed. They’re designed roles. However people having interest in those things can be natural of the result of social pressures.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're social constructs. They can't exist outside of society, and they vary from society to society. Generally, femininity is used to shame men and keep women relegated to a lower social and sexual position. That's how it works under patriarchy, anyway.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think gender roles emerge from sexually dimorphic psychological traits which are then amplified (socially constructed) as individuals perform them to advertise their reproductive fitness. I suspect that gender identity is formed in early childhood as children become aware of gender roles. I see the core of gender roles to be characteristics such as dominance and status seeking (masculinity) and nurturing and safety seeking (femininity) that arise from sexually dimorphic reproductive strategies. Individual variation is much wider than gender roles, but the population effect of evolutionary biology seems clear to me.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So are you saying little girls consciously choose to adopt the inferior role? Wouldn't that imply that girls and women are born to want to be inferior?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not consciously. And not inferior, just a statistically significant population sex difference in choice of safety over status. Individual variation is much larger than the difference. The impacts include much of the gender pay gap. I am not saying this is biologically inevitable, I am saying that misattribution to some "patriarchy" impairs efforts to fix it because it does not recognise population sex differences in personal choices. Sex-based hiring quotas have not worked, but higher minimum wages, improved pay for caring professions, and taxpayer-funded childcare are effective and non-discriminatory ways of reducing the economic impacts of population sex differences in personal choices.

And we can also reframe your point as asking whether boys are born wanting to die at work (20-30 times more likely than females). As an aside, BHP found reduced injuries and equipment damage when females joined underground hard rock mining. Great example of gender-diverse workforce reducing harm; there have been mixed results in other fields. The worst workplace I experienced was single sex.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, if there's a hierarchy, then one group is superior and the other is inferior. That's just the way it works. If women choose safety over status, then we're choosing to be considered inferior to men, if only subconsciously. If this is not biologically inevitable, then we should be fighting tooth and nail against it.

[–]Nohope[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So you're not against "gender" and "gender roles" because they're just sexual dimorphism and "femininity" and "masculinity" are what males and females biologically do

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pretty much, but more than just biologically. I think there is a feedback loop where societies construct gender roles informed by sexual dimorphism, and individuals internalise those roles as gender identity, and then may perform gender, reinforcing those roles, or not. Trans people have an atypical gender identity for their sex. More generally, sexism is the assumption that sex defines value or social role. I do not oppose gender, but I do oppose sexism.

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm GC leaning but not fully GC. I do think that every society has parameters for how they expect men and women to act, which could be defined as "masculinity" and "femininity". I think these can be more or less constrictive (eg: the range of acceptable ways to be a woman in Sweden vs. Yemen). And obviously there is a lot of variance, in that if you asked someone from a Masai tribe in Kenya, an office worker in Tokyo, a deeply religious man from the Bible Belt, a deeply religious man from Saudi Arabia, an office worker from Helsinki, a Thai rice farmer, etc etc to describe a "feminine woman" you would get WIDELY different responses.

Where I differ from mainstream radfem thought is that I don't think we can ever completely eliminate gender. While gender as a culturally dictated set of social roles, appearances, and behaviors can vary greatly from society to society, from everything I've seen, every society has some concept of "gender". We're a dimorphic species. We've been selecting for humans that can perform these dimorphic roles (men that become dads and women that become moms) for millennia. There will always be certain roles and appearances that signal to society "I'm a female human that would be a good choice as a mother" and vice versa for men, and the people who fulfill those roles and appearances are more likely to reproduce more humans that are more like them. I believe this is also why every society is a patriarchy (I have yet to hear of a true matriarchy outside of some tiny tribes, every major society and civilization is patriarchy). Of course, there will always be people who don't want to or are unable to perform these roles. There are people who are gay/lesbian, and people that want to present themselves as the opposite sex. But they aren't rewarded by society for this, so it'll always be an uphill battle. At best you have some societies that introduce a "third gender" for men, but that's just because not as many men are needed for reproduction so having some men not involved in reproduction isn't that big a deal. This is also why I believe the current debate around trans rights focuses almost exclusively around trans women. Trans men don't exist to most people, GC ignores them, QT ignores them. Ultimately society always goes back to what to do with these men who aren't needed for reproduction.

I do think humans can distance ourselves to an extent. As I mentioned, think of women in Sweden in Finland. They are still subject to patriarchy but nowhere near on the level most women worldwide are. However, if you asked people in Sweden and Finland, I'm pretty sure they would still have a concept of "femininity" that involves being a woman that signals fertility/motherhood in her clothing and behavior. I think we can loosen the chains of gender greatly, but I'm not yet convinced we can entirely eliminate them considering the inherent dimorphic nature of the species and the inequality in terms of physical capabilities, and also the disproportionate burden on women when it comes to reproduction. I think those material realities of biology will always influence society and the way humans interact.

[–]Nohope[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well you said you're not fully GC, that's why you differ from radfems. My question was towards GCs, not towards on the fence GC leaning people that are also on the side of "gender" ideology and "gender" essentialism

[–]Nohope[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is the most homophobic comment I have read so far, so you see lesbians and gay people as people that are failures because they don't follow sexual dimorphism and the "roles" you believe come with it or whatever? Fine, I want humans to go extinct anyway, I'm against procreation and breeding, so those sexual dimorphism that say "I'm a female that would be a good choice as a breeder"? Nope, going to either get rid of those or burn humans if they can't get rid of them. It's good to be a failure in the eyes of you and other humans because really, you breeders are the actual failures.

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are reading a lot into this that I'm not attaching any emotion to, and did not say explicitly nor implicitly

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Femininity" and "Masculinity" are memes that, at various times in various ways, have been useful to the most powerful members of society. The quintessential masculine male is stoic, hard-working, and brave - perfect traits for an underclass of workers and soldiers. The quintessential feminine female has the perfect set of traits to be a further-underclass, a slave-of-slaves who will compliantly serve the men who serve the masters. It all ultimately comes from reproductive strategy.