GC: What is wrong with trans people working in sexual violence prevention?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

"Cis" imply that someone believe in sex-based stereotypes and they conform to the stereotypes and roles expected from their sex (the biological category, you know?).

Cis means someone primarily identifies with their birth sex. For instance, if you were born female and identify as a woman, you would be considered a cis woman. You don't have to conform to any stereotypes and roles. You can have short hair, wear ties, work long hours in construction and prefer video games instead of shopping at the mall, and still be considered cis.

I don't know what Thomas' female teammates really think about these issues, but I think is a safe bet they are likely very aware about the phisiological differences beetween Thomas and them, and how they are treated very different by society.

This is why we use terms like cis and trans when relevant.

Please, tell us how do you know Thomas is a "woman". Is the way his swimsuit highlight his very obviously male body?

Thomas prefers she/her pronouns and we should respect that.

Is the penis he exposes to his teammates in the changing rooms? Is the fact he is guity of exhibiotionism and vouyerism, two crimes that are mostly commited by males?

If other women are not allowed to expose their genitalia, then neither should she. If that’s the case, she should absolutely be charged with exhibitionism and voyeurism. If the other women are allowed to expose their genitalia, why can’t she? Genitalia is genitalia, regardless if it's a penis, vagina or something ambiguous.

Is the way even critical Media uses feminine pronouns to describe this man?

Many people including myself would not read/watch media and outlets that use the wrong pronouns for people.

I'm being serius here, genderbender, why do you think this man is any sort of "woman"? Is all because he SAYS he is a "woman"? Is that enough to qualify as a one?

Yes.

Do you want I give you again those links showing how trans identified males (aka "transwomen") retain male patterns of criminality and how unisex restrooms are more dangerous for women?

Again, you can't ban someone from a place because they might commit a crime or because of what demographic they belong to.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Cis means someone primarily identifies with their birth sex. For instance, if you were born female and identify as a woman, you would be considered a cis woman. You don't have to conform to any stereotypes and roles. You can have short hair, wear ties, work long hours in construction and prefer video games instead of shopping at the mall, and still be considered cis.

We're already have this conversation before. I do NOT "identify" as a woman. I am one. This is a matter of biology, not ideology. And you have admitted before that being "cis" implies to accept sex-based stereotypes as innate.

This is why we use terms like cis and trans when relevant.

Not, this is why SEX is relevant. Thomas' "gender identity" have nothing to do with his atlethic advantage or his behaviour in changing rooms or the fact society pander and defend him.

If other women are not allowed to expose their genitalia, then neither should she. If that’s the case, she should absolutely be charged with exhibitionism and voyeurism. If the other women are allowed to expose their genitalia, why can’t she? Genitalia is genitalia, regardless if it's a penis, vagina or something ambiguous.

...

What is the difference between Thomas and a naked man who don't "identifies" as the opposite sex and gets into the female changing rooms?

Many people including myself would not read/watch media and outlets that use the wrong pronouns for people.

So, you like being lied to?

Yes.

Yeah, I though so. Now, tell me why do you think men would not lie about their "gender identity" for their own benefit?

Again, you can't ban someone from a place because they might commit a crime or because of what demographic they belong to.

... I can't with you! Why are you so against prevention?!

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

We're already have this conversation before. I do NOT "identify" as a woman. I am one. This is a matter of biology, not ideology. And you have admitted before that being "cis" implies to accept sex-based stereotypes as innate.

You may not "identify" as a woman but you consider yourself a woman, if that's the language you want to use. Lia Thomas is also a woman. So is Oprah, Laverne Cox, Rihanna, MJ Rodriguez and me. I never said being cis means to accept sex based stereotypes. By "cis" we mean what someone considers themself, not stereotypes.

Not, this is why SEX is relevant. Thomas' "gender identity" have nothing to do with his atlethic advantage or his behaviour in changing rooms or the fact society pander and defend him.

Society would also "pander" to a trans man who was changing in the men's room. I'm glad Gavin Grimm went after his former high school.

What is the difference between Thomas and a naked man who don't "identifies" as the opposite sex and gets into the female changing rooms?

What is the difference between seeing a vagina and seeing a penis? Genitalia is genitalia. As I said, if cis women are not allowed to display their genitalia, than neither should Lia Thomas.

So, you like being lied to?

No, I like when people are respected, and that means using preferred pronouns.

Yeah, I though so. Now, tell me why do you think men would not lie about their "gender identity" for their own benefit?

I'm sure there are men who would do that but my point is you can't exclude people from public places because they belong to a certain demographic. My high school had airport style metal detectors you had to go through before entering the school. Statistically most school shooters are white males yet every student had the same scanning procedure and were scrutinized equally regardless of what demographic they belonged to. It's not like white males were required to go through separate lines and receive more intense searches.

Likewise, you you can't ban people from public spaces just because they might commit a crime. If a man implanted a camera in the bathroom stall, we would put him in jail. We would do the same thing if a woman implanted a camera. If someone is implanting a camera, it's their behavior that is the problem, not their mere presence. Likewise, if someone robs you on the street, it's their behavior that is the problem, not their presence. By your logic people in demographics who are more likely to rob someone should not have a curfew or walk different streets than the rest of us. We all have the potential to commit a crime. This is not being against safeguarding or prevention.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Long time no see.

You may not "identify" as a woman but you consider yourself a woman, if that's the language you want to use.

This is disingenuous and also false in your language.

A couple of Germans in Iceland ask their native German translator who is fluent in Icelandic to ask an Icelandic man in the market what he is selling. The Icelandic man answers “kind”, which is the Icelandic word for sheep, and the translator repeats “kind” to the Germans, which is the German word for child, and tells them to alert the police of child trafficking. The translator knows the Icelandic man isn’t identifying as selling a child (referring to selling sheep, not a child) but as the Icelander considers himself selling “kind” the translator thinks if that is the language the Icelander wants to use then he as German will treat the Icelander accordingly.

Is the translator above fair? To a German, in your eyes, should the Icelander be viewed as selling “kind”, the verbatim letters used by the Icelander which happens to be the German word for child, or as selling “schaf”, the German word for sheep which was what the Icelander actually meant?

Even within the same language meanings and letters are separate things. In English “gay” can mean being happily excited, “gay” can also mean being homosexual. If you know Peter is a straight man who has an old fashioned speaking pattern who says he is gay when he is excited and Sarah confesses to you she’s thinking of asking him out, would it be fair to tell Sarah she shouldn’t as Peter has admitted being gay to you? No, as Peter was communicating he was excited while you would be trying to communicate to Sarah that he is homosexual which is false.

What does GC refer to with “woman”? Translated to your terminology it’s an adult AFAB. What do you refer to with “woman”? An adult who shares your gender identity. Its false to portray someone as considering themselves sharing your gender identity when the person merely considers themselves AFAB in your terminology. Being aware of being AFAB is not the same thing as sharing your gender identity which the subreddit ftm on reddit is an example of as it’s full of people who are aware they are AFAB despite not sharing your gender identity. You claim to be against misgendering yet you keep insisting people share your gender identity even after they tell you they don’t for having used letters that has a gendered meaning to you but not to them. That would be similar to me insisting a straight Lesbos resident calling herself a lesbian is lowkey admitting being into woman because lesbian means something else to me than to her.

You are the only QT person here invested in the debate and I always appreciated the fact you take the time. Your tendency for the logical error explained above always annoyed me though. I hope this explanation makes sense to you but feel free ask if something is unclear, similarly feel free to tell me if you disagree with the distinction between letters and meanings and we can have a conversation about it.