GC: How can there be such things as male and female in the presence of intersex conditions? How can there be no such things as "male pregnancy" and "futanari"?

submitted by BigSecret from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That, and there are men with, for example, persistent Mullerian duct syndrome that have a uterus and fallopian tubes: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/persistent-mullerian-duct-syndrome/#:~:text=Persistent%20M%C3%BCllerian%20duct%20syndrome%20is,which%20are%20female%20reproductive%20organs%20.

If there is ova production then that person is female by definition regardless of chromosomes. Usually chromosomes indicates sex unless ova production/sperm production show otherwise. But we are talking about intersex cases here, and they are called intersex for a reason.

So females can have penises and testes, and males can have uteruses ...?

Dyadic females never have penis/testes. Dyadic males never have uterus. In intersex conditions sex organ can look in-between, so I don't know if what they call a penis look exactly like the penis of a dyadic male or if it's very masculinized clitoris they call a penis, but intersex people are not dyadic so they are not examples of how it is like for dyadic people. Either way, someone who produces ova would be female by definition, and someone who produces sperm would be male by definition. And most of these "chicks with dicks" are just regular dyadic men with breasts capable of producing sperm (or could if they had not been taking estrogen).

Why would testes and penis be male-only organs when females can have them too?

Testes and penis are male-only organs for dyadic people, and the great majority of trans people are dyadic, not intersex.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Usually chromosomes indicates sex

In 99.999% they do. And SRY gene indicates sex in 100% of cases.

intersex

Also this word is misnomer as not representing reality, it was not in use for 20-30 years now - I think it was considered as slur, same as hermaphrodite, until gender identity appeared recently and made slurs like queer or intersex - to be overused again.

clitoris

Virilized clitoris still acts like regular clitoris - they can't pee through it, they can't produce sperm. It just bigger or weird shaped clitoris, that's it.

Testes and penis are male-only organs for dyadic people, and the great majority of trans people are dyadic, not intersex.

Technically even for intersex they are, if you add word "Working", because intersex people have only one set of sexual organs working and other one is not working and is underdeveloped.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And SRY gene indicates sex in 100% of cases.

I've heard of extremely rare cases where it didn't (like once in a billion) so I wanted to cover it all.

I think it was considered as slur, same as hermaphrodite, until gender identity appeared recently and made slurs like queer or intersex - to be overused again.

I am ESL (English second language) so I am not always familiar what is considered outdated terminology in English.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've heard of extremely rare cases where it didn't (like once in a billion) so I wanted to cover it all.

It still was, there was just misunderstanding, as doctors were not qualified enough for this.

However, if speak about ALL cases, then true - there are such cases, but they all deadly, childs with it are dying before being born, they can't develop as both male and female or as neither - it is incompatible with being alive in humans.

I am ESL (English second language) so I am not always familiar what is considered outdated terminology in English.

Neither do I. I just know personally person with intersex condition. Or more like, I learned she has such condition only when TRA started misusing her condition and she complained about it, and especially about stuff like in NZ - when they can be denied vital healthcare because now it is not medical condition but just "identity". Before that we never talked about it.

Also, my language never even had such term until last few years, when LGBT organizations from the USA started promoting homophobia and gender ideology. I think in my language it is called something like "group of congenital disorders of sexual development". And they all are not even grouped together, as there are like 3-4 different groups in them.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It still was, there was just misunderstanding, as doctors were not qualified enough for this.

You mean this has been debunked? https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/16/4/717/3114050 I would be interested in seeing the study of the debunking.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it was in one of their peer reviews, which found a lot of mistakes and the fact that public is lacking any ability to check their findings. I don't think I will be able to find it, I am just reading stuff and that's it - not bookmarking it, sorry.

They said it is 6th reported case, thought.

On the other hand, maybe SRY gene is not the only thing that is determining sex of a person. However, there only 6 reported cases in 50 years from 15 billions people who lived during this time, so it is almost impossible to research...

[–]BigSecret[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not talking about "trans".

This is about intersex, and how they might indicate that the definitions of male and female may be flawed. If intersex females have penises, and testes, as mentioned, and intersex males have uteruses, as again mentioned, then how can penises and testes be male-only organs when females can have them too? How can vagina, uteruses, ovaries, etc be female-only organs when males can have them too?

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How can vagina, uteruses, ovaries, etc be female-only organs when males can have them too?

I don't know which particular conditions you talk about here, or the state of these vaginas/uterus/ovaries and therefore I can't know which sex I consider these people to be. A person who produces ova is female by definition though.

they might indicate that the definitions of male and female may be flawed

You do realize that language has a limit and that has nothing to do with the definition of male/female in particular? There are tales of Socrates going around asking people to define the most basic things and making fun of them as nobody ever succeeded in giving the perfect definition to anything, all definitions were ambiguous in some way. You can try with what a chair. How would you define chair so it includes exactly all chairs and exactly zero of everything that isn't a chair? It's not possible. Instead you have to be consistent with your rigor, expect the same level of rigor of the definition as you would of other definitions you believe in. You can't expect the impossible though, the first perfect definitions that can be put into words when nothing else in world yet has perfectly worded definitions. In your head though, even though you might not be be to find the perfect words, you probably have a very clear picture of what male and female is, no? The same with the moon, sun, stone, you know what they are, even if your worded definitions could end up somewhat ambiguous.