GC: Scientists say sex is a spectrum, even an illusory man-made social construct

submitted by Fastandthecurious from (self.GCdebatesQT)

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That wouldn’t show that there’s no difference between the sexes. The fact that you mentioned two different things indicated that they are… wait for it… two different things.

All this would mean is that, in bees at least, two eggs or two sperm could possibly maybe accomplish this rarity. Males and females still exist lol

That’s what I don’t get about this insistance on a spectrum. It does nobody any favors. You fit where you’re born on the spectrum, and cosmetics or feelings won’t change that. So what does the existence of a spectrum as opposed to a binary accomplish? “Transwoman” would still be a euphemism for man, and TW would still be male (same but opposite for transmen). Like what is gained from us accepting a spectrum?

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

It might have looked like I mentioned two different things, but the reason there is a "male" or "female" is because only these two can come together and create a zygote. That's what they call sexual reproduction. Now that it's clear two sperm or two eggs can create a zygote too, it goes to show there isn't a difference between an "egg" or a "sperm", because two "sperms" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, and so there isn't a "male" or a "female".

That’s what I don’t get about this insistance on a spectrum. It does nobody any favors. You fit where you’re born on the spectrum, and cosmetics or feelings won’t change that. So what does the existence of a spectrum as opposed to a binary accomplish? “Transwoman” would still be a euphemism for man, and TW would still be male (same but opposite for transmen). Like what is gained from us accepting a spectrum?

If sex were a spectrum, then it would mean if a woman takes hormones or undergoes surgery, she, or they, would stop being fully a woman and enter the spectrum in which they are a bit of a woman and a bit of a man.

That's what they want to tell others with "sex is a spectrum". With "sex is a spectrum" there's also "sex can change" after it. By changing certain characteristics, they believe they can become less of a woman, more of a man for example.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you’re basing this spectrum on zygotes and chromosomes etc then trans people are the sex they were born. It doesn’t work both ways. You’d need two spectrums, and trans people wouldn’t be the sex they wish to be in at least one by default. You can’t measure sex in a way that satisfies trans people, accounts for intersex conditions, and acknowledges the other almost 100% of the population that is neither trans nor intersex.

As for the idea that there’s no difference between male and female- there obviously is. We can see it. You discussed it at the end of your own comment. Regardless of the weird anomaly of two dude bees making a baby, even if that meant that any two males or any two females can reproduce (it doesn’t mean that but I’ll go with it), there are still thousands of obvious, provable, observable, and constant differences between the two sexes of any species. it’s kind of why the sexes were separated to begin with.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

it’s kind of why the sexes were separated to begin with.

They were separated that way because only a "sperm" and an "egg" can make a zygote. But if two "sperm" or two "eggs" can make a zygote too, then the differences between a "male" and a "female" that we see are arbitrary. The differences could as easily exist between "males" themselves, or "females" themselves because two "eggs" or two "sperms" can do the exact same thing a "sperm" and an "egg" do.

These words are in quotes, not because "sperm" and "egg", "male" and "female" are different, but because otherwise noone would understand what I'm saying.

If you’re basing this spectrum on zygotes and chromosomes etc then trans people are the sex they were born. It doesn’t work both ways. You’d need two spectrums, and trans people wouldn’t be the sex they wish to be in at least one by default. You can’t measure sex in a way that satisfies trans people, accounts for intersex conditions, and acknowledges the other almost 100% of the population that is neither trans nor intersex.

Yeah. If it's based on chromosomes, even if sex were a spectrum, noone would be able to change their sex. The thing is they don't base the spectrum on chromosomes. They base it on secondary sex characteristics, and genitalia. If a woman takes hormones, then in the "sex spectrum", this is not "just a woman" but "a bit of a woman, a bit of a man" due to having some secondary sex characteristics associated with males as well.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. They weren’t separated just because sperm and egg. Female and male bodies are so obviously different and have such obviously different functions that I can’t take you pretending this isn’t the case seriously. You really think the first humans saw that half of them had breasts and vaginas and the other half had no breasts and had dicks and they said “oh gee no differences here”? And only noticed that we differed in some ways after they found out about sperm and eggs? How did they find out about sperm and eggs then? Why aren’t there more cases of double male made babies? Or even one in humans? And if there aren’t any cases of this occurring amongst humans- how and why is it relevant to humans?

    There’s a reason the bee thing made the news- it’s not a common thing. It’s an extraordinary thing. But as I said, even if two males and two females can reproduce together- there’s still two sexes. It’s ridiculous that you’re pretending this isn’t the case. It’s not arbitrary if we still experience different health concerns and bodily functions based on our sex, it’s not arbitrary if our bodies naturally form and develop in specific ways according to our sex. Even if it doesn’t matter that we have two sexes- we still do have two sexes

  2. This would mean that trans people have a spectrum all their own.

Which would mean that their spectrum is worthless and irrelevant to the rest of us. If they want to measure transness on a spectrum go for it, but they’d still be the sex they were born on any other spectrum when compared to the rest of the world’s population- which was my point. There’s no way to make transwomen women with females and transmen men with males. It can only be done if we isolate them. Because there’s the common denominator of biology/chromosomes, even if we accepted a spectrum that accounts for intersex conditions. It only makes sense to measure sex based on what connects the most people. And inevitably it’s gonna come down to those pesky chromosomes.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

They weren’t separated just because sperm and egg. Female and male bodies are so obviously different ...

These "differences" are the result of "sperm" and "egg" coming together to form a zygote though. Once upon a time, there were no organisms that had vaginas or penises. Gametes started forming and differentiating. Limbs, and genitals didn't pop out of nowhere on their own.

even if two males and two females can reproduce together- there’s still two sexes. It’s ridiculous that you’re pretending this isn’t the case.

You think it's ridiculous because you think "female" and "male" are separate from gametes ... they aren't. If "sperm" and "egg" weren't the only things capable of creating a zygote, then there would be no "differences" between "males" and "females".

That two "sperm" or two "eggs" can do the exact same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do though makes this blurry. It goes to show whatever "difference" exists between a "male" and "female" is arbitrary, and could easily occur between two "females" or two "males", because two "eggs" or two "sperms" can do the same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do.

Which would mean that their spectrum is worthless and irrelevant to the rest of us. If they want to measure transness on a spectrum go for it, but they’d still be the sex they were born on any other spectrum when compared to the rest of the world’s population- which was my point. There’s no way to make transwomen women with females and transmen men with males. It can only be done if we isolate them. Because there’s the common denominator of biology/chromosomes, even if we accepted a spectrum that accounts for intersex conditions. It only makes sense to measure sex based on what connects the most people. And inevitably it’s gonna come down to those pesky chromosomes.

They want most people to change everything for them. Why do they call most people "cis"? They make most people use a language that validates their "gender identity", whatever it is. They make them think they have a "gender identity" too, and then they claimed "sex is a spectrum" and "actually, sex doesn't exist at all, it's man-made and a social construct".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. I understand that that’s the reason for the difference- what I’m saying is we didn’t “separate” ourselves- we are just two different sexes. Nature or biology or whatever the fuck is in charge separated us, and pretending that separation doesn’t matter isn’t going to magically make us the same. Our bodies look and function and develop differently. There’s no escaping that. My point is that even if it doesn’t matter that this is true- it is still true. I just happen to think that it does matter, but that’s irrelevant.

  2. No. I think it’s ridiculous because I know how humans function and you seem not to or to be unwilling to acknowledge that female bodies function differently than male bodies. They just do. This is fact. It’s absurd that you’re glossing over this and I’m sure your next comment if you respond will continue to ignore this.

  3. I agree, but I’m not quite sure what you believe anymore lol. Are you qt or gc, or neither? Just curious. Are you advocating for a sex spectrum but not in the same way and for the same reasons as trans people? Just confused lol