GC: Scientists say sex is a spectrum, even an illusory man-made social construct

submitted by Fastandthecurious from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 7 fun18 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 7 fun -  (18 children)

Once again I’ll quote that great philosopher:

“How make bébé?”

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (17 children)

In the post, this article claims a honey bee was made by two males and no females: https://www.forbes.com/sites/grrlscientist/2018/11/28/a-honeybee-with-two-fathers-and-no-mother/#740bc6f84405

Genetic analysis revealed that nine of the 11 gynandromorphs had either two or three fathers. Astonishingly, one gynandromorph -- the seemingly normal female control -- actually had two fathers and no mother -- an event that could only have resulted from sperm fusion.

“The female bee that had two fathers created by the fusion of two sperms is the first reported in haplodiploids and is an interesting phenomena considering that attempts to fuse two sperm in mammalians have not [been] found to be possible,” Ms. Aamidor elaborated in email.

This study begins to expand our limited understanding of the truly unusual ways that sexual animals can fuse their genomes.

Two sperms come together to create a zygote, which means there is no difference between a sperm and an egg. Two sperms can fertilize each other. Two eggs can fertilize each other. There isn't a difference between a male and a female.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

And humans are exactly like bees so I guess you’ve won the whole debate sub lol

Surely you realize there’s a reason this was worth being written about?

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (15 children)

Humans are not bees. But the bee shows sex being a binary is not universal across animals. It means there is no actual difference between a male and a female because two eggs or two sperms can make a zygote too, and male and female are social constructs that only work for humans, not other animals.

[–]kwallio 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please argue from human biology. Bees are not humans. Fungi are not humans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

That wouldn’t show that there’s no difference between the sexes. The fact that you mentioned two different things indicated that they are… wait for it… two different things.

All this would mean is that, in bees at least, two eggs or two sperm could possibly maybe accomplish this rarity. Males and females still exist lol

That’s what I don’t get about this insistance on a spectrum. It does nobody any favors. You fit where you’re born on the spectrum, and cosmetics or feelings won’t change that. So what does the existence of a spectrum as opposed to a binary accomplish? “Transwoman” would still be a euphemism for man, and TW would still be male (same but opposite for transmen). Like what is gained from us accepting a spectrum?

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

It might have looked like I mentioned two different things, but the reason there is a "male" or "female" is because only these two can come together and create a zygote. That's what they call sexual reproduction. Now that it's clear two sperm or two eggs can create a zygote too, it goes to show there isn't a difference between an "egg" or a "sperm", because two "sperms" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, and so there isn't a "male" or a "female".

That’s what I don’t get about this insistance on a spectrum. It does nobody any favors. You fit where you’re born on the spectrum, and cosmetics or feelings won’t change that. So what does the existence of a spectrum as opposed to a binary accomplish? “Transwoman” would still be a euphemism for man, and TW would still be male (same but opposite for transmen). Like what is gained from us accepting a spectrum?

If sex were a spectrum, then it would mean if a woman takes hormones or undergoes surgery, she, or they, would stop being fully a woman and enter the spectrum in which they are a bit of a woman and a bit of a man.

That's what they want to tell others with "sex is a spectrum". With "sex is a spectrum" there's also "sex can change" after it. By changing certain characteristics, they believe they can become less of a woman, more of a man for example.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now that it's clear two sperm or two eggs can create a zygote too, it goes to show there isn't a difference between an "egg" or a "sperm"

Maybe it's clear to you, but it's not clear to me or others. Humans have been combining bird & fish eggs together for millennia, but AFAIK this has never resulted in a new chick or fish coming into being - instead, it's yielded scrambled eggs, omelets, souffles & caviar.

Boys & men have been merging & mixing their sperm together for millennia too. But a human zygote - much less a embryo, fetus or baby - has never been created as a result.

BTW, you seem unaware that male scientists & physicians for hundreds of years have been trying to make new life in various ways, & since the mid-20th century extensive experiments have been done in an effort to make zygotes out of just sperm or just eggs.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you’re basing this spectrum on zygotes and chromosomes etc then trans people are the sex they were born. It doesn’t work both ways. You’d need two spectrums, and trans people wouldn’t be the sex they wish to be in at least one by default. You can’t measure sex in a way that satisfies trans people, accounts for intersex conditions, and acknowledges the other almost 100% of the population that is neither trans nor intersex.

As for the idea that there’s no difference between male and female- there obviously is. We can see it. You discussed it at the end of your own comment. Regardless of the weird anomaly of two dude bees making a baby, even if that meant that any two males or any two females can reproduce (it doesn’t mean that but I’ll go with it), there are still thousands of obvious, provable, observable, and constant differences between the two sexes of any species. it’s kind of why the sexes were separated to begin with.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

it’s kind of why the sexes were separated to begin with.

They were separated that way because only a "sperm" and an "egg" can make a zygote. But if two "sperm" or two "eggs" can make a zygote too, then the differences between a "male" and a "female" that we see are arbitrary. The differences could as easily exist between "males" themselves, or "females" themselves because two "eggs" or two "sperms" can do the exact same thing a "sperm" and an "egg" do.

These words are in quotes, not because "sperm" and "egg", "male" and "female" are different, but because otherwise noone would understand what I'm saying.

If you’re basing this spectrum on zygotes and chromosomes etc then trans people are the sex they were born. It doesn’t work both ways. You’d need two spectrums, and trans people wouldn’t be the sex they wish to be in at least one by default. You can’t measure sex in a way that satisfies trans people, accounts for intersex conditions, and acknowledges the other almost 100% of the population that is neither trans nor intersex.

Yeah. If it's based on chromosomes, even if sex were a spectrum, noone would be able to change their sex. The thing is they don't base the spectrum on chromosomes. They base it on secondary sex characteristics, and genitalia. If a woman takes hormones, then in the "sex spectrum", this is not "just a woman" but "a bit of a woman, a bit of a man" due to having some secondary sex characteristics associated with males as well.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. They weren’t separated just because sperm and egg. Female and male bodies are so obviously different and have such obviously different functions that I can’t take you pretending this isn’t the case seriously. You really think the first humans saw that half of them had breasts and vaginas and the other half had no breasts and had dicks and they said “oh gee no differences here”? And only noticed that we differed in some ways after they found out about sperm and eggs? How did they find out about sperm and eggs then? Why aren’t there more cases of double male made babies? Or even one in humans? And if there aren’t any cases of this occurring amongst humans- how and why is it relevant to humans?

    There’s a reason the bee thing made the news- it’s not a common thing. It’s an extraordinary thing. But as I said, even if two males and two females can reproduce together- there’s still two sexes. It’s ridiculous that you’re pretending this isn’t the case. It’s not arbitrary if we still experience different health concerns and bodily functions based on our sex, it’s not arbitrary if our bodies naturally form and develop in specific ways according to our sex. Even if it doesn’t matter that we have two sexes- we still do have two sexes

  2. This would mean that trans people have a spectrum all their own.

Which would mean that their spectrum is worthless and irrelevant to the rest of us. If they want to measure transness on a spectrum go for it, but they’d still be the sex they were born on any other spectrum when compared to the rest of the world’s population- which was my point. There’s no way to make transwomen women with females and transmen men with males. It can only be done if we isolate them. Because there’s the common denominator of biology/chromosomes, even if we accepted a spectrum that accounts for intersex conditions. It only makes sense to measure sex based on what connects the most people. And inevitably it’s gonna come down to those pesky chromosomes.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

They weren’t separated just because sperm and egg. Female and male bodies are so obviously different ...

These "differences" are the result of "sperm" and "egg" coming together to form a zygote though. Once upon a time, there were no organisms that had vaginas or penises. Gametes started forming and differentiating. Limbs, and genitals didn't pop out of nowhere on their own.

even if two males and two females can reproduce together- there’s still two sexes. It’s ridiculous that you’re pretending this isn’t the case.

You think it's ridiculous because you think "female" and "male" are separate from gametes ... they aren't. If "sperm" and "egg" weren't the only things capable of creating a zygote, then there would be no "differences" between "males" and "females".

That two "sperm" or two "eggs" can do the exact same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do though makes this blurry. It goes to show whatever "difference" exists between a "male" and "female" is arbitrary, and could easily occur between two "females" or two "males", because two "eggs" or two "sperms" can do the same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do.

Which would mean that their spectrum is worthless and irrelevant to the rest of us. If they want to measure transness on a spectrum go for it, but they’d still be the sex they were born on any other spectrum when compared to the rest of the world’s population- which was my point. There’s no way to make transwomen women with females and transmen men with males. It can only be done if we isolate them. Because there’s the common denominator of biology/chromosomes, even if we accepted a spectrum that accounts for intersex conditions. It only makes sense to measure sex based on what connects the most people. And inevitably it’s gonna come down to those pesky chromosomes.

They want most people to change everything for them. Why do they call most people "cis"? They make most people use a language that validates their "gender identity", whatever it is. They make them think they have a "gender identity" too, and then they claimed "sex is a spectrum" and "actually, sex doesn't exist at all, it's man-made and a social construct".

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now that it's clear two sperm or two eggs can create a zygote too, it goes to show there isn't a difference between an "egg" or a "sperm", because two "sperms" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, and so there isn't a "male" or a "female".

https://youtu.be/TplrVWRFV8E

Also, sperm is both singular & plural.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

sex being a binary is not universal across animals

This is known -- e.g. the humble planaria worm of countless high school biology classes.

IMO it's not "new" knowledge, it's being sensationalized by activists who desperately want to redefine demonstrated biological norms in terms of rare exceptions. It's also (often) a conflation of human cognitive/emotional behavior (desire, preference, expression re gender) with the cellular mechanics of human reproduction (sex), which isn't science at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

sex being a binary is not universal across animals

Yes, it only occurs in organisms that reproduce sexually. No one ever said sex & the sex binary are universal across all living things - what is known about sex & sexual reproduction applies only to animal & plant species that have evolved to reproduce in this particular way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even with asexual reproduction and parthenogenesis, almost always it is only two sexes or only females who are present during it.

I believe only some bacteria and mushrooms have more than two types of gametes, the rest of living creatures are either all female, have two sexes or sexless.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally. (Where are they getting all that nonsense? Besides Tumblr?)