GC: How to know the sex of an intersex person? Are intersex people not 100% male or female?

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[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Now we know.

What do you mean "now we know"?

Without doctors checking them they don't know. They are looking like females and in general their body phenotype developed like female one. So there no reason to think they aren't females for anyone around.

Only when their health issues are hitting them, or when they are trying to find why they are infertile or why they have no menstruation at all - only then doctors making tests and finding out they have CAIS.

With PAIS or MAIS it is much easier, because they are not completely inresponsive to androgenes, so they are developing like males who have extra estrogene in them.

They (doctors, family, etc) should test whether or not someone has a DSD in hospitals before or after birth.

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids. And CAIS is so super rare, that in a year there can be 0 births with this condition in country.

Intersex conditions that require fast treatment are visible when kid is born, so that is when tests are made. And those tests are made mostly to save lives to those intersex kids, because males and females require different treatment.

That way we won't be in this mess.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

I didn't ignore. They answered my questions, and I understood. The only part that needed addressing, I addressed.

You not answered questions and you asked again what already was answered.

They didn't ask any questions for me to answer them.

Lies, she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

You are misrepresenting what other people said or asked once again.

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids.

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

That's definitely "invasive", but should be done. We can't say "omg it harms kids to look at their genitals, what are you, you a pedo? omg!! omg omg".

You know what's invasive? Not doing tests, thinking someone with boobs is female eventhough they have testes and letting a lie continue around in circles. Yes. People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male. Usually the testes are removed because they are underdeveloped and could turn cancerous. Doctors KNOW all the CAIS individuals are male. But either they don't tell the family, or if they do the family lies to the kids with CAIS that they are girls eventhough they aren't.

Want to know what's even more invasive? Not doing tests, telling CAIS people they are women eventhough they aren't, and when they come to the realization, it's too late. Speaking for myself, if I learned someone I thought was a "she" was a he instead of a "she", I would feel totally disgusted for the deception.

Or I can imagine if I had DSD, but found out about this way later, I would be very very angry because it means I did not know myself and the issues I had, all because of people like you advocating for doctors not to do more tests at birth to find out if someone has DSDs.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD. This is outright disgusting and horrible. Making people use false language because you think "it's invasive to look at the genes and organs of kids, to figure out they have DSD". You must be a liberal.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

People like you are the reason we are in this mess right now.

Anyway, there is no way testing kids to see if they have DSDs is invasive, just like vaccinating kids is not invasive, or bathing kids is not invasive, or examining kids' blood to see if they have other diseases is not invasive.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

Lmfao what questions? "Why are you ignoring all the questions and answers" was the only one repetitively being asked. Please list the other questions here if there are any, because I saw none.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

No, doctors are making blood test or ultrasound during pregnancy, around 10-12th week of pregnancy. And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

Both males and females with CAIS are looking like a female when born. To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive and does not worth it to do, because it will take a lot of resources and can hurt mother or kid, especially when speaking about such rare condition that majority of doctors and midwives will never ever encounter in their whole life and medical practice. And this condition is not causing any troubles until 16-20 years anyways, unlike some intersex conditions which require saving after birth, but those conditions do not have ambigious genitals looking like female ones - they have "penis-looking" genitals instead of "vulva-looking genitals" and they are starting to vomit and similar stuff.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

But why do it for every kid if only one in few millions girls born will have it? Why do it on rest? It is not saving anyones lives and can do harm - either physical or psychological. Why are you so obsessed with this question about extremely rare condition?

People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male.

Those testes are underdeveloped and inside body, they are not seen when you see them naked. People with CAIS looking completely like a female when naked, they even have labia and underdeveloped clitoris. So you can't really say it is not a woman by such inspection.

Looks like you think that testes are outside and visible, that's why you are saying those ignorant and very weird things, I suppose. If you thought that testes are visible, then your posts starting to make at least a little sense, actually.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD.

As I said, DSD which are posing danger to life are seen early and without tests. Most are found out before or during puberty because of abnormalities or other health issues. Almost all DSD conditions are unambigiously male or female looking as well. So you will never confuse them with other sex. Only very few of 40 conditions have any ambiguity to them.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

Which mess? That one in two millions women who have completely female phenotype, was raised as a girl and maybe not even knowing themselves about their condition, is someone with CAIS? I don't see any mess here. They aren't much stronger than other women, they can't impregnate, they do not have "male entitlement" nurtured, and it is impossible to tell that they have CAIS without special medical tests. Obviously if they are starting to date with someone, they should enclose it, and as far as I know - majority who know of their situation do.

because I saw none.

Just doing ctrl+F on "?" showed me there were few.

And you not answered my question:

What do you mean "now we know"?

We know what? And we - who? And why only now? This information about CAIS condition is known for long time now. Or you mean you think that woman you was chatting has CAIS? I think she said she had CAH, it is completely different condition, not even remotely related.

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

Which I mentioned. And is "invasive", but we should do it.

Both males and females with CAIS are looking like a female when born. To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive

Since checking a newborn's genitals is as "invasive", but doctors should do it, doing x-rays and blood tests on newborns is "invasive" but they should be done.

And as I said, it's funny you use the word "invasive". People literally bathe newborns, and touch their naked bodies while bathing them ... You can't get any more "invasive" than that. But x-rays and blood tests are where you arbitrarily draw a line? Yeah I'm not buying that. If people get to bathe newborns, then x-rays and blood tests are nothing compared to it.

But why do it for every kid if only one in few millions girls born will have it? Why do it on rest? It is not saving anyones lives and can do harm - either physical or psychological. Why are you so obsessed with this question about extremely rare condition?

Eh. CAIS are all males. There are no "females" with CAIS. That's what I learned. None of the people with CAIS have internal female sex organs. And they. Have. Testes. Which doctors usually remove because they are underdeveloped and turn cancerous.

They should test everyone for whether they have DSDs or not, because I think it is worth it. I can just imagine talking to someone, who I think is one sex, but turns out is another sex. That's so "invasive". Making me and others use false language because to you these people pass as the opposite sex, and you think "it's invasive to test on newborns".

That one in two millions women who have completely female phenotype, was raised as a girl and maybe not even knowing themselves about their condition, is someone with CAIS?

CAIS are male. Not female.

Just because they think they are female, or pass as a female on the outside doesn't make them female. You say they are no different because they can't impregnate ... so you're saying males who have no penis or testes are not different from females ... so they are females ...

By that logic, a "trans woman" who chopped his dick and testes off, and on the outside totally passes as a woman due to hormones, is a female because he can not "impregnate". Do you hear yourselves? CAIS individuals are males with no penis and testes. Their "female phenotype" means boobs, and maybe vulva. They have no internal female sex organs. They are not females.

It's better to test on newborns to know if they have DSDs so people don't go lying to kids they are a sex they are not, like the case with CAIS who think they are women eventhough they aren't. It doesn't give the kids identity crisis. It doesn't make other people use false language when referring to the kids with DSDs. And when these kids grow up to date, they don't have to test then. They already know they have DSDs and what their actual sex is so they can tell others about it when dating.

Just doing ctrl+F on "?" showed me there were few.

...

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which I mentioned. And is "invasive", but we should do it.

You are not answering my questions. You ignored every question in every answer to you.

I ask again - Why? Why we should do it, especially considering how rare it is and that majority doctors and midwives will never ever encounter one in whole their practice?

but doctors should do it, doing x-rays and blood tests on newborns is "invasive" but they should be done.

Why? In many countries doctors are not even on childbirth at all, if childbirth is going well. There just nurse, midwife.

CAIS are male. Not female.

There are females with CAIS too, but they are just normal females, with some issues with periods, as we need some androgenes for menstruation to go well - and those females are insensitive to them. Females with CAIS are not considered as intersex, thought, because they are completely unambigious and there are different other disorders females can have to be insensitive to androgenes.

You are very ignorant, tbh. Not sure why I am even trying to talk with you, as you are ignoring half of what I am writing and then saying something that is opposite to what I've said.

By that logic, a "trans woman" who chopped his dick and testes off, and on the outside totally passes as a woman

No. Males with CAIS never had penis, and they have naturally developed labia and clitoris, which are looking and acting like female ones, so unlike transwomen after surgery, it is not possible to tell if they are not females without X-rays (and I have experience with transsexuals, so I know it is completely different - especially scent and lack of self-lubricating and self-cleaning). It is absolutely different with Transwomen. Same with Estrogene - it is produced naturally in males with CAIS, they don't need any injections.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Since checking a newborn's genitals is as "invasive", but doctors should do it, doing x-rays and blood tests on newborns is "invasive" but they should be done.

And as I said, it's funny you use the word "invasive". People literally bathe newborns, and touch their naked bodies while bathing them ... You can't get any more "invasive" than that.

It's some weird world you live in. According to the dictionary I use (Oxford) the adjective "invasive" means

• (especially of plants or a disease) tending to spread prolifically and undesirably or harmfully: patients suffering from invasive cancer

• (especially of an action or sensation) tending to intrude on a person's thoughts or privacy: some people ask invasive questions about other people's health

• (of medical procedures) involving the introduction of instruments or other objects into the body or body cavities: minimally invasive surgery

If in the course of bathing or changing a baby or older child, people do not customarily put our fingers, hands, instruments or other objects into their body cavities, particularly not their anuses or vaginas. When caring for a young child, people usually use a washcloth or perhaps a cotton swab to clean inside their ears, and nowadays it's common to check children's temperature using a thermometer that gets inserted in the ear. When a kid has stuffed up nose, parents often use a pinky fingernail or suction device to clear out the mucous. When children reach the age where they have teeth that need brushing, carers will brush their teeth - or more commonly, help guide their hand as they brush their teeth themselves.

In the olden days when I was a kid, it was customary to take kids' temps using rectal thermometers. Then, as sometimes now, some drugs that are given to children are administered by suppository. Sometimes kids get worms, diaper rash and other conditions that require ointment or medication be applied to and around the anus. In highly unusual circumstances that might happen once in a million years, kids growing up might have a health problem where they'd need an enema.

But in the normal course of events, parents and other caregivers DO NOT do anything invasive to newborns, older babies or children of any age when bathing them, changing their diapers, dressing them or otherwise caring for them.

Moreover, the standard physical exams that HCPs do on the genitals and bottoms of newborns and other children do not involve doing anything invasive. HCPs do not penetrate girls' vaginas or the anuses of children of either sex as part of routine care. Yes, HCPs put a tongue depressor in kids' mouths, stick a scope in the ears and nostrils, and often use in-ear thermometers to check temp. Dentists and dental technicians poke around in kids' mouths. When kids are sick, they sometimes do get invasive procedures such as needle sticks, IVs, various kinds of scans, and surgeries. But as a general rule, it is not customary for parents, carers or HCPs to do invasive things to newborns or other children.

The only exception to this is the circumcision of male infants by HCPs and mohels, a practice that I abhor and think should not be done. When baby boys' foreskins are left intact, it's not customary for parents, carers or HCPs to mess with them during bathing or medical exams. When a child is older, carers will teach him to retract his own foreskin over the head of the penis for hygiene and so that phimosis does not occur.

I find it disturbing and frankly frightening that you think people with CAIS should be subjected to your verbal invasiveness when you rock up to them and demand that they tell you if they have a DSD, that you think it's customary for adults to subject newborns to invasive acts as part of ordinary care, and that you now are insisting that all newborns be genetically tested for CAIS

because I think it is worth it. I can just imagine talking to someone, who I think is one sex, but turns out is another sex. That's so "invasive". Making me and others use false language because to you these people pass as the opposite sex, and you think "it's invasive to test on newborns".