QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so. Intersex disorders are quite rare. The existence of people with disorders of sexual development is not a reason to stop using sexed terms for the vast majority of people. Male and female are clear and discrete categories. Disorders of sexual development are discrete categories of males and females with specific disorders. Muddying up everything observed about sexual development helps nothing and nobody.

Having Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

No those are sexed features. Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features. Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex. It is not evidence of a gender identity. It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct?

If gender identity were a social construct, a change in social enviroment would be able to change it.

How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

if by "gender" you mean "gender role", then "gender" is a social construct. But gender identity is not based on gender role and is not a social construct.

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so.

a. ) now you are straight up forging quotes. What I wrote was Of how many people you call "she" or "him", "woman" or "man" every day do you know with certainty which gonads they have? . Under b.) I will treat your answer as if you had actually answered my question.

b.) really? You have examined the gonads of 98% of all people you have ever called "she","him", "woman" or "man" ? Or have you actually (you know, like normal people) looked at their physical body (and most likely in the vast majority of cases their clothed physical body, meaning you have no idea what kind of genitals they have) and assumed from their secondary sexed characteristics?

No those are sexed features.

precisely.

Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features.

true. Gender identity is defined by this.

Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex.

no one claims that experiencing gender dysporia changes ones biological sex.

It is not evidence of a gender identity.

except it absoloutly is, since gender identity refers to which set of sexed physical vcharacteristics you are comfortable with.

It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

but it is a reason to make gendered terminology inclusive if not all affected have the same gender identity. And I have already presented my proposal on how to be inclusive without erasing the terms "men" or "women", since it does make sense to emphasize the typical case.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

different forms of female oppression can be either sex based or based on apparent gender. Infanticide, restrictions to abortions or underage marriages are based on biological sex, sexual harrasement and gender pay gap are based on apparent gender. I have never seen anyone make the claim that the sex based forms of oppression you mentioned were based on gender identity.

Also, how is this relevant? In what way exactly does saying "Women and other people with a cervix should undergo regular cervix screenings" over "Women should undergo regular cervix screenings" promote or ignore female oppression?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m sorry but if you’re gonna make silly accusations like forging quotes when I loosely paraphrase you, I’m not giving you my time.

I know because the vast majority of human beings are not intersex or transgender, because transgendered people very rarely pass, and because since there is a plague going on I see about one stranger a week. 98% was being generous.

Even in normal times, it’s so unlikely as to be laughable that in a town of 20,000 people, I’m gonna see an intersex person or a transgendered person everyday.

Most people understand women to already be people who have a cervix. It’s muddying medical facts to pander to the hurt feelings of a select few who think not liking their vagina but liking plaid makes them a man.

Giving credence to gender identity harms women by erasing them as a sexed group with distinct oppression, needs, and differences. Giving credence to gender identity allows men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women. Giving credence to gender identity is giving credence to gender, which is a social construct designed to oppress women and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

So yes, saying people with a cervix as well does indirectly lead to the harm of women.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m sorry but if you’re gonna make silly accusations like forging quotes when I loosely paraphrase you, I’m not giving you my time.

It is not a loose paraphrasing if it changes the meaning of what I said.

I know because the vast majority of human beings are not intersex or transgender, because transgendered people very rarely pass, and because since there is a plague going on I see about one stranger a week. 98% was being generous.

I explicitly asked for you certainly knowing those peoples gonads. As in, do you examine whether someone has testes or gonads before deciding on whether to call them "sir"/"man"/"him" or "ma'm"/"woman"/"her" or do you only look at their secondary sex characteristics and go by that? Because if you do that, you do not know with certainty which gonads they have, you are just assuming. This assumption might be correct 98% of the time, but that is not the same as being certain.

Even in normal times, it’s so unlikely as to be laughable that in a town of 20,000 people, I’m gonna see an intersex person or a transgendered person everyday.

depending on whether one considers LOCAH to be intersex or not, intersex is either aproximately 1.7 % or 0.2% of all cases, meaning about 340 or 40 people in your town being intersex. For the united states, the estimate for the prevalence of transgender people is 0.5-0.6 % ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#United_States_2 ) meaning about 100-120 people (with there being a hightend possibility for overlap compared to the general population https://www.nature.com/articles/nrurol.2012.182 ).

It’s muddying medical facts to pander to the hurt feelings of a select few who think not liking their vagina but liking plaid makes them a man.

Giving credence to gender identity allows men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women.

and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

again conflating gender role and gender identity (utterly trivializing what transgender identity actually is)

Most people understand women to already be people who have a cervix.

yes, and it also needs to be aknowledged, that not everyone with a cervix is a woman.

Giving credence to gender identity harms women by erasing them as a sexed group with distinct oppression, needs, and differences.

how are women "erased" ?

Giving credence to gender identity is giving credence to gender, which is a social construct designed to oppress women and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

Please define "gender". Do you mean "gender roles"? Because, again, gender identity has nothing to do with gender roles. Those are entirely different things.