QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

"men" and "women", as understood under the transgender paradigm, are social categories, not biological ones.

But most of the world is not going to accept "the transgender paradigm" as a substitute for reality. Sex is biological, and no matter how hard you try to replace the reality of sex with newfangled social constructs, sex isn't going away. You can't erase it, override it, paper it over or make people unsee it.

Your post just illustrates how unwieldy and unconvincing '"the transgender paradigm" is. And speaking of your post, is "transgender punctuation and SPAG" a new thing too?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (15 children)

But most of the world is not going to accept "the transgender paradigm" as a substitute for reality. Sex is biological, and no matter how hard you try to replace the reality of sex with newfangled social constructs, sex isn't going away. You can't erase it, override it, paper it over or make people unsee it.

who is trying to replace biological sex with social constructs? What is attempted, is to stop going by biological sex and instead go by gender identity where biological sex shouldn't matter (e.g. outside the bedroom or medical care). And of course it is possible for a transgender person to be seen as a member of their gender identity instead of their birth sex.

And speaking of your post, is "transgender punctuation and SPAG" a new thing too?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Replacing well defined and understood medical terminology with the transgender paradigm is replacing biological sex with a social construct.

The transgender paradigm is a social construct and sex is observed biology.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Replacing well defined and understood medical terminology with the transgender paradigm is replacing biological sex with a social construct.

The transgender paradigm is a social construct and sex is observed biology.

a.) gender identity is not a social construct.

b.) why should gendered pronouns or the categories "man" and "woman" be based on biological sex?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

What observable evidence is there? Not self reported feelings, actual biological processes. Gender is a social construct itself. Identity is a psychological construct, not an observable reality. It is all ideas and theory and a whole lot of sexism.

The terms are sexed. Applying gender rhetoric and sexism to them is a choice. Woman means adult human female, not person who likes things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

What observable evidence is there? Not self reported feelings, actual biological processes. Gender is a social construct itself. Identity is a psychological construct, not an observable reality. It is all ideas and theory and a whole lot of sexism.

Gender Identity is very much not a social construct. If it were, conversion therapy to turn transgender people cisgender would work, which it very much doesn't ( https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-conversion-therapy-associated-severe-psychological-distress-n1052416 )

In terms of observable criteria, there is the clear distress felt by gender dysphoric transgender people at their physical sexed anatomy, that is lessend when the physical sexed anatomy is changed from the one of the birth sex to the one of the gender the person identifies as. Gender dysphoria is a neurological medical issue that, similar to clinical depression, is currently diagnosed based on psychological means but is treated via medical ones (antidepressiva for clinical depression, hormone therapy for gender dysphoria)

The terms are sexed. Applying gender rhetoric and sexism to them is a choice.

no, they aren't. Of how many people you call "she" or "him", "woman" or "man" every day do you know with certainty which gonads they have?

not person who likes things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society.

really? Having Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so. Intersex disorders are quite rare. The existence of people with disorders of sexual development is not a reason to stop using sexed terms for the vast majority of people. Male and female are clear and discrete categories. Disorders of sexual development are discrete categories of males and females with specific disorders. Muddying up everything observed about sexual development helps nothing and nobody.

Having Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

No those are sexed features. Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features. Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex. It is not evidence of a gender identity. It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

99.982% to be precise. Total amount of intersex people is around 0.16-0.2% of population and amount of intersex people with ambigious genitals or missmatched chromosomes are just 0.018%. If taking into account only genitals, then around 0.009-0.01%. So in 99.991% cases genitals = sex. And in most of cases just few extra tests needed to determine. It is around 3000-30000 or less people with DSD per country (depending on population of it). There much more transgender people than us.

Almost none of intersex people are trans (same percent as in general population), so I don't understand why we even being mentioned. We are not connected to this issue in any way and our problems are completely different.

We do not want to be called third sex, other or "less female/male". We are the same as everyone else, just with congenital problems with sexual development - like people with 6 fingers, or people with congenital heart disorders, and so on. We are neither lesser, nor "other". Othering hurt us and leads to IGM and mistreatment.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct?

If gender identity were a social construct, a change in social enviroment would be able to change it.

How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

if by "gender" you mean "gender role", then "gender" is a social construct. But gender identity is not based on gender role and is not a social construct.

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so.

a. ) now you are straight up forging quotes. What I wrote was Of how many people you call "she" or "him", "woman" or "man" every day do you know with certainty which gonads they have? . Under b.) I will treat your answer as if you had actually answered my question.

b.) really? You have examined the gonads of 98% of all people you have ever called "she","him", "woman" or "man" ? Or have you actually (you know, like normal people) looked at their physical body (and most likely in the vast majority of cases their clothed physical body, meaning you have no idea what kind of genitals they have) and assumed from their secondary sexed characteristics?

No those are sexed features.

precisely.

Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features.

true. Gender identity is defined by this.

Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex.

no one claims that experiencing gender dysporia changes ones biological sex.

It is not evidence of a gender identity.

except it absoloutly is, since gender identity refers to which set of sexed physical vcharacteristics you are comfortable with.

It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

but it is a reason to make gendered terminology inclusive if not all affected have the same gender identity. And I have already presented my proposal on how to be inclusive without erasing the terms "men" or "women", since it does make sense to emphasize the typical case.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

different forms of female oppression can be either sex based or based on apparent gender. Infanticide, restrictions to abortions or underage marriages are based on biological sex, sexual harrasement and gender pay gap are based on apparent gender. I have never seen anyone make the claim that the sex based forms of oppression you mentioned were based on gender identity.

Also, how is this relevant? In what way exactly does saying "Women and other people with a cervix should undergo regular cervix screenings" over "Women should undergo regular cervix screenings" promote or ignore female oppression?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Your constant claim that "gender dysphoria" means feeling distress over one's physical sexed anatomy and your assumption that people without "gender dysphoria" feel no discomfort over their sexed bodies are highly offensive to me.

Many girls and women spend much of our younger lives distressed and in discomfort and excruciating pain due to gynecological problems associated with our menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Many women experience painful chronic UTIs and and issues like Bartholin's cysts due to the anatomy of our vulvas. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Pregnant women and new mothers experience all sorts of things due to our sexed bodies that are discomfiting, distressing and painful - backache, nausea, indigestion, liver pain, stretch marks, hemmorhoids (piles), inability to get a seatbelt comfortably around us, torn and stitched-up vulvas, pelvic nerve pain. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Going through the experience of labor and childbirth is extremely uncomfortable, upsetting and scary for many/most women. You have no idea. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Breastfeeding can be very painful, and most women who breastfeed end up with at least one mastitis infection. Breastfeeding in public can be very uncomfortable and distressing for women, especially as it tends to attract a lot of stares, disapproval and perverted men who say disgusting things and make a point of situating themselves nearby so they can rub their penises whilst they watch us feed our children. This makes women who experience this want to die of mortification and revulsion. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Over the long term, many women who have given birth end up with problems like pelvic organ prolapse, pudendal neuralgia, urinary and fecal incontinence due to childbirth injuries we suffered years earlier. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Women during and after menopause suffer a variety of problems - hot flushes, insomnia, sweats, UTIs, vaginal atrophy - due to our sexed bodies. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Many girls and women feel tons of distressing shame over our sexed bodies from being sexually objectified, harassed and abused - and from being told we are gross and dirty for menstruating, and that our genitals smell and are "fishy." Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

I also take umbrage at the fact that when another poster mentioned

things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society

You responded with

Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

You really do see female people as just an assemblage of inanimate things made by and for men, don't you? To you we're just a bunch of body parts, not human beings.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Many girls and women spend much of our younger lives distressed and in discomfort and excruciating pain due to gynecological problems associated with our menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Many women experience painful chronic UTIs and and issues like Bartholin's cysts due to the anatomy of our vulvas. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Pregnant women and new mothers experience all sorts of things due to our sexed bodies that are discomfiting, distressing and painful - backache, nausea, indigestion, liver pain, stretch marks, hemmorhoids (piles), inability to get a seatbelt comfortably around us, torn and stitched-up vulvas, pelvic nerve pain. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Going through the experience of labor and childbirth is extremely uncomfortable, upsetting and scary for many/most women. You have no idea. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Breastfeeding can be very painful, and most women who breastfeed end up with at least one mastitis infection. Breastfeeding in public can be very uncomfortable and distressing for women, especially as it tends to attract a lot of stares, disapproval and perverted men who say disgusting things and make a point of situating themselves nearby so they can rub their penises whilst they watch us feed our children. This makes women who experience this want to die of mortification and revulsion. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Over the long term, many women who have given birth end up with problems like pelvic organ prolapse, pudendal neuralgia, urinary and fecal incontinence due to childbirth injuries we suffered years earlier. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Women during and after menopause suffer a variety of problems - hot flushes, insomnia, sweats, UTIs, vaginal atrophy - due to our sexed bodies. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Physical pain arising due to ones sexed anatomy being unhealthy or undergoing a painfull natural process is not "discomfort" in the sense of gender dysphoria.

Many girls and women feel tons of distressing shame over our sexed bodies from being sexually objectified, harassed and abused - and from being told we are gross and dirty for menstruating, and that our genitals smell and are "fishy." Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

distress arising over societies treatment of ones sexed body functions is also not what is meant by "distress" in the sense of gender dysphoria.

Feeling so deeply uncomfortable with having breasts (not with how other people treats you for having breasts, but the mere fact of you having breasts) that you are seriously contemplating impromptu self-surgery using gardening tools to get rid of them, that is meant with "distress" or "discomfort" in the sense of gender dysphoria (and, yes, that's a real case. Saw two transgender men - that is, female-to-male transgenders - talking about having experienced such thought processes)

I also take umbrage at the fact that when another poster mentioned

things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society

You responded with

Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

You really do see female people as just an assemblage of inanimate things made by and for men, don't you? To you we're just a bunch of body parts, not human beings.

No? Where do you take such insulting acusations from? Body parts are body parts. Female people are people.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m sorry but if you’re gonna make silly accusations like forging quotes when I loosely paraphrase you, I’m not giving you my time.

I know because the vast majority of human beings are not intersex or transgender, because transgendered people very rarely pass, and because since there is a plague going on I see about one stranger a week. 98% was being generous.

Even in normal times, it’s so unlikely as to be laughable that in a town of 20,000 people, I’m gonna see an intersex person or a transgendered person everyday.

Most people understand women to already be people who have a cervix. It’s muddying medical facts to pander to the hurt feelings of a select few who think not liking their vagina but liking plaid makes them a man.

Giving credence to gender identity harms women by erasing them as a sexed group with distinct oppression, needs, and differences. Giving credence to gender identity allows men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women. Giving credence to gender identity is giving credence to gender, which is a social construct designed to oppress women and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

So yes, saying people with a cervix as well does indirectly lead to the harm of women.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m sorry but if you’re gonna make silly accusations like forging quotes when I loosely paraphrase you, I’m not giving you my time.

It is not a loose paraphrasing if it changes the meaning of what I said.

I know because the vast majority of human beings are not intersex or transgender, because transgendered people very rarely pass, and because since there is a plague going on I see about one stranger a week. 98% was being generous.

I explicitly asked for you certainly knowing those peoples gonads. As in, do you examine whether someone has testes or gonads before deciding on whether to call them "sir"/"man"/"him" or "ma'm"/"woman"/"her" or do you only look at their secondary sex characteristics and go by that? Because if you do that, you do not know with certainty which gonads they have, you are just assuming. This assumption might be correct 98% of the time, but that is not the same as being certain.

Even in normal times, it’s so unlikely as to be laughable that in a town of 20,000 people, I’m gonna see an intersex person or a transgendered person everyday.

depending on whether one considers LOCAH to be intersex or not, intersex is either aproximately 1.7 % or 0.2% of all cases, meaning about 340 or 40 people in your town being intersex. For the united states, the estimate for the prevalence of transgender people is 0.5-0.6 % ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#United_States_2 ) meaning about 100-120 people (with there being a hightend possibility for overlap compared to the general population https://www.nature.com/articles/nrurol.2012.182 ).

It’s muddying medical facts to pander to the hurt feelings of a select few who think not liking their vagina but liking plaid makes them a man.

Giving credence to gender identity allows men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women.

and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

again conflating gender role and gender identity (utterly trivializing what transgender identity actually is)

Most people understand women to already be people who have a cervix.

yes, and it also needs to be aknowledged, that not everyone with a cervix is a woman.

Giving credence to gender identity harms women by erasing them as a sexed group with distinct oppression, needs, and differences.

how are women "erased" ?

Giving credence to gender identity is giving credence to gender, which is a social construct designed to oppress women and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

Please define "gender". Do you mean "gender roles"? Because, again, gender identity has nothing to do with gender roles. Those are entirely different things.