GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I have seen that contested, with a line of thought where it is conceptualized that medical transitioning is considered to result in a change to biological sex, as the exogonous hormones change biological function. To stay clear of argumentation around this, I used "birth sex" (as in: the sex of the person at the moment of their birth) to be clear.

There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenus hormones and cosmetic surgeries. Still, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum). Then, a spermatozoon and a ovum fuse to form the zygoto, restoring this way the normal amount of DNA. There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and sugeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum).

what about people who don't produce any gametes?

There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

what about people with chromosomal abnormalities regarding the sex chromosomes?

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone

true. It doesn't change the chromosomes. Which is utterly irrelevant, since most of the differences in biological function (fat distribution, pheromones, muscle development, secondary sexual characteristics) depend on the hormone levels, which, in medical transitioning are changed (further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(male-to-female)#Effects , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(female-to-male)#Effects )

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Body is not changing at all structurally. Bones are still placed and jointed differently, lunghs and hearts are still bigger, muscle mass in percentage to weight is still bigger, estrogene and progesteron are not started being produced on its own, and so on. There are too many structural differences on a basic level between male and female bodies.

what about people with chromosomal abnormalities regarding the sex chromosomes

Chromosomal anomalies are happening more rare than in 0.01% of people. Most of us aren't transgender and most transgenders aren't intersex. So sayingg XX/XY or just speaking about SRY gene alone is enough to determine sex of 99.9% of all people. And in 0.01% our bodies are still developed to support either male or female gametes, even if we are most often infertile. Infertile woman is not a man.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Chromosomal anomalies are happening more rare than in 0.01% of people. Most of us aren't transgender and most transgenders aren't intersex. So sayingg XX/XY or just speaking about SRY gene alone is enough to determine sex of 99.9% of all people. And in 0.01% our bodies are still developed to support either male or female gametes, even if we are most often infertile. Infertile woman is not a man.

The argument from chromosomal anomalies doesn't have anything to do with claiming that transgender people have chromosomal anomalies, it is to refute the argument "A transgender man/woman still has XX/XY chromosomes and is therefore forever female/male", since you can be male wuth XX-chromsomes/female with XY-chromosomes. And for definitions, edge cases (which yes, chromosomal anomalies are) matter, especially since transgender people are edge cases themself.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Same as with other people, 99.99% of transgender people would have XX of they were born female and XY if they were born male. Maybe 99.95%, because of modern intersexphobia and all this wording like from WPATH (who called women with CAIS - "mutants") and "less female" - young people with DSD and their parents may be pushed to do IGM to become not "lesser female" but "fully transman", for example.

Chromosomal anomalities are all sex based as well.

I don't understand why this even dragged on into discussions about transgender people - we are not related in any way. And we are not proving any point either. We are just dragged along.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

DSDs and transgenderism are not related. However you want to classify people with chromosomical anomalies, it doens't impact on trans identified people. And people with chromosomical anomalies are still either male or female. Saying they are something in between is likely to cause more IGM.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And people with chromosomical anomalies are still either male or female. Saying they are something in between is likely to cause more IGM.

if anything, it is the other way around. by saying that everyone is either clearly male or female, the point is made that anyone who doesn't is broken and needs to be fixed, causing more IGM.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

IGM happens because the kids are not considered fully male or female. You're saying the same stuff in a new package.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, IGM's happen because people are stuffed into a strict binary that accepts only male and female, with anything other being considered a "disorder" that must be corrected. Full acceptance of the "biological sex as a spectrum"-model would also mean full acceptance of everyones position on said spectrum, and therefore not pathologizing people with intersex conditions as "broken men/women".