GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I have seen that contested, with a line of thought where it is conceptualized that medical transitioning is considered to result in a change to biological sex, as the exogonous hormones change biological function. To stay clear of argumentation around this, I used "birth sex" (as in: the sex of the person at the moment of their birth) to be clear.

There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenus hormones and cosmetic surgeries. Still, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum). Then, a spermatozoon and a ovum fuse to form the zygoto, restoring this way the normal amount of DNA. There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and sugeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum).

what about people who don't produce any gametes?

There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

what about people with chromosomal abnormalities regarding the sex chromosomes?

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone

true. It doesn't change the chromosomes. Which is utterly irrelevant, since most of the differences in biological function (fat distribution, pheromones, muscle development, secondary sexual characteristics) depend on the hormone levels, which, in medical transitioning are changed (further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(male-to-female)#Effects , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(female-to-male)#Effects )

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

most of the differences in biological function (fat distribution, pheromones, muscle development, secondary sexual characteristics) depend on the hormone levels, which, in medical transitioning are changed

Again, utter rubbish. Most of the differences in the biological function of female and male humans are not visible to the eye. The secondary sex characteristics you are so focused on represent just a teensy-tiny fraction of the sex differences in female and male human beings.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Most of the differences in the biological function of female and male humans are not visible to the eye.

preciesly. And since they aren't perceived, they are irrelevant to sexual attraction and therefore in regards to sexual orientation.

The secondary sex characteristics you are so focused on represent just a teensy-tiny fraction of the sex differences in female and male human beings.

But they represent the vast majority of the sex differences relevant for sexual attraction.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You keep shifting the topic, pretending we were talking about something different than the specific issue under discussion in a particular instance.

My response was to your claim that

most of the differences in biological function (fat distribution, pheromones, muscle development, secondary sexual characteristics) depend on the hormone levels, which, in medical transitioning are changed

Which was a blanket and entirely false claim about the "differences in biological function" between males and females across the board, not just a claim solely about the small number of differences that in your opinion are the only ones "relevant to sexual attraction."

As for the rest, you're just making it clearer and clearer that your knowledge of human sexual relations is all or mostly theoretical.