GCdebatesQT

GCdebatesQT

all 43 comments

BiologyIsReal 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Yes, "gender identity" sounds too much like "gendered" souls. So, I'd also ask them, if you enshrine "gender identity" into law, doesn't this break the separation between Church and State?

MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

The issue that's causing so much trouble isn't simply that the Church of Genderology is similar to a fundamentalist religions, though it is in numerous ways.

The real problem is that those who believe in/belong to the Church of Genderology are behaving as if their fanciful faith has been established as the official state religion in countries like the US, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand and many other places. The adherents of the Church of Genderology and all their allies in the establishment act as though the Western world now is subject to the rule of an authoritarian religious tyranny similar to the Shia Islamic theocracy instituted in Iran in 1979 - a totalitarian state where the Genderists are the supreme rulers and no one else gets a say: No debate!

As a result, the entire population of the Western world is now expected to accept without question all the preposterous claims and tenets of the Church of Genderology, read its sacred texts & regard them as divine truth, gullibly swallow its origin stories, unfailingly obey its commandments, venerate its clergy, religiously follow its rituals, enthusiastically participate in its liturgy, use its arcane & incoherent terminology, honor its holy days, stand in awe of its saints, kowtow to its sacred caste, worship at its altar and partake of its sacraments.

If we don't do all these things, and exactly in the way the Genderologists dictate, then after death we'll be sent to the underworld to suffer eternal damnation and unspeakable horrors forevermore - and until then, the CoG will make our lives hell on earth, particularly if our sex is female and we have the temerity to respond to the mantra "trans rights are human rights" by pointing out that girls & women have some human rights too.

Just as the Genderologists have gone out of their way to craft a theology that is perhaps the most misogynistic in all history, they've also taken great care to insure that the new state religion we are being expected to follow is a particularly strict and cruel one. Due to the impossible demands it makes, demands that change on a frequent basis without public notice, it's inevitable that sooner or later - most likely sooner - each one of us will fall short, slip up and commit a heinous sin like misgendering a Gregor Murray, deadnaming a Caitlyn Jenner or Chuck Clymer, or making reference to "concerns," "safety" or "biological sex," all of which have now been deemed "transphobic dogwhistles" and "hate speech." And when we do commit sin as is bound to happen, each one of us will find there is no forgiveness, no redemption, no way to "do better" and escape pillorying, shunning and exile. Not for us, coz we are apparently heretics, blasphemers and evil to our core.

HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun 2 years ago

MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

That TV Tropes entry is written in gibberish. But the gist of it I was able to glean is incredibly dumb. The idea that "everyone is Jesus in purgatory" makes no sense at all coz Jesus didn't go to purgatory. Purgatory and Jesus don't really belong in the same sentence.

Purgatory is the place that RC theology says the souls of people are sent to if they are too sinful for heaven but not so sinful as to deserve damnation in hell. Basically, purgatory is the big waiting room in the sky where your sins are expiated by enduring a partially hellish experience for some of the hereafter rather than the whole shebang.

When I was a child in Catholic school decades ago, I was taught that rather than your whole body being set on fire for all eternity like in hell, in purgatory only your hands and arms to your shoulders and your legs to just above the knee will be on fire - and it will only be for a couple of million years as opposed to forever. 😱

But Jesus didn't need to go to purgatory coz he'd already done enough suffering on earth - so much suffering, the story goes, that he made up for the rest of humanity's sins, or for original sin (it's never been clear to me which sins they meant). The point is, Jesus got to skip purgatory and take the express elevator to heaven not just coz he was the son of god/god himself, but because he was crucified - and prior to his crucifixion he was put through the hell of imprisonment, torture, public shaming, and the hellish long walk to Calvary wearing a crown of thorns and lugging the cross he'd soon be nailed to whilst some in the crowds jeered and spit and the Roman soldiers whipped and kicked him each time he fell.

So an image of Jesus in purgatory does not compute. "Everyone is Jesus in the Judean desert" might work, though. Ditto Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun 2 years ago

I believe its referring to Jesus descent into the underworld:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

So why is it called "Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory"? Purgatory isn't hell.

Also, the "Harrowing in Hell" story is widely disputed and not taught by many Christian churches. The RCC of my youth didn't teach it. The early NT texts said that in between his death and resurrection, Jesus went to Hades. Hades means

the underworld; the abode of the spirits of the dead (Oxford).

Hades isn't hell. Hell is in Hades, but not all Hades is hell. Like Paris is in France but not all of France is Paris.

The confusion between hell and Hades seems to have come from poor translations of the early New Testament texts from Greek into other languages. https://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/did-jesus-go-to-hell-faq.htm

Plus, even if the harrowing of hell story is taken at face value, by its own account Jesus didn't suffer when he supposedly went to hell - he went there to preach, save souls, say hello and stick it to the devil (his purported doings there vary from account to account).

BTW, some early Christian theologians suggested that during his time in the underworld before his resurrection and ascent into heaven, Jesus did actually visit purgatory - and some say he visited limbo (the place where it used to be said that unbaptised babies went after death). But still, that doesn't fit with the mostly incoherent TV tropes writeup you linked to coz: a) the idea that J went to purgatory is very obscure, & little known, even amongst devout Christians with a bent for theological arcana; b) if he went to purgatory, Jesus still wouldn't have suffered there; and c) Hollywood TV writers tend not to be very good when it comes to grasping the nuances of Christian theology, as evidenced by their constant mis-portrayal of the meaning of the "immaculate conception," which they erroneously conflate with the doctrine of the virgin birth.

That TV trope would be far better summed up by calling it "Everybody Is Jesus" or "Everybody Is Jesus on the Cross." Coz pretty much everyone has a basic grasp of the the Jesus crucifixion story & grasps cross imagery. Which IIRC, E.M. Forster famously made fun of in his essay "My Wood."

loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

This is a great question and I think it’s really interesting that it’s been ten hours as I type this and no qt answered.

So I’ll answer- it’s not different. It’s the exact same concept. And I think they know that, which may be why this went unanswered all day.

divingrightintowork[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Aww I've missed you! ❤️

loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I’ve missed you! I was so happy to see you’d posted :)

divingrightintowork[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I'll check the other posts and see if I have anything to share?

adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

There is only a tiny number of people here, and even back on Reddit there were barely any QT answering.

loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Ok, we would still get a few answers, vs not getting any. We still do at least get a few answers most of the time, unless it’s a subject they can’t dance around, like this one. That was my point.

theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I don't think religion can be dismissed that easily. It's likely appeared from evolutionary pressures. It serves a purpose. Societies without religion have secular forms that serve a very similar purpose. It's just like refined aspects of religion.

Secondly although religions appear very differently across the world, all known societies have social gender. They all have majority gender conforming societies with gender variant minorities. I'd expect they also link same sex attraction to gender non conformity.

This is not a specific justification of all trans politics but that "gender" can't be abolished, just as all religious like forms can't be abolished.

MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I don't think religion can be dismissed that easily.

Huh? How is noting the similarities between gender ideology and religion - and the different social protocols around Genderology compared to other religions in plural societies today - dismissing religion? No one here has dismissed religion. We've made observations about it. Seems to me observing religions is the opposite of dismissing 'em.

Nor has anyone said religions should "be abolished" LOL. You're the only one who's used such lingo and brought up that idea.

loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

There seems to be a drastic difference in what the trans community expects/demands from the rest of society and how other cultures who have “gender variant minorities” include them. Those cultures regularly ask not to be compared to trans people and not to be used as a reference/example by trans people (not at all saying you’re doing this, just responding because you made an interesting point).

Trans ideology doesn’t have to be abolished, it just needs to be something that nobody has to participate in or be effected by unless they willingly choose to be. We shouldn’t force any ideology on people who don’t believe in it, and that’s exactly what’s happening now with the trans community (obligatory not all trans people).

theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

But I think either way trans or not trans politics does affect society. There isn't an easy way to opt out of either.

Then the idea of gender abolition would change all of society, in theory.

loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I’m not pushing for abolishing anything, trans people aren’t even using gender properly lol. The things trans people are pushing for are invasive and disruptive of other people’s rights, that’s not okay at all. Trans people should be free to believe whatever they want, even free to ask people to call them whatever they prefer- they shouldn’t be allowed to do most of what is happening today. I understand politics affect society, I’m saying that what is being forced and pushed into society is wrong, and particularly pushing an ideology based on wishful thinking and denial of fact makes it 1000x more wrong

MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

gender abolition would change all of society, in theory.

I don't think anyone "gender critical" thinks the abolition of the sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas and beliefs that constitute "gender" is a realistic or achievable end goal. Or, for that matter, even a desirable one. We are arguing against forcing everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to the strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that genderists hold dear. And we are against the basic tenet of Genderology which says that whether a human being is male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, is not determined by the person's biology, but by his or her level of perceived "masculinity" or "femininity" and which - if any - sex stereotypes he or she hews to and prefers.

Most people who are "gender critical" are not saying that genderists should not be allowed to have their sexist beliefs and to cleave to sexist sex stereotypes and judge themselves and others by sexist standards. We just don't think their sexist beliefs, stereotypes and standards should be imposed on all of society, forced down children's throats and made into the de facto state religion that everyone is expected to follow and no one is allowed to challenge.

divingrightintowork[S] 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun 2 years ago

bravo - I've been saying that I'm not really GC or TRA, but I'm a liberalist... and it's the negative rights of GC/RF aligned people that are being most trampled right now, whereas TRAs are demanding highly undue positive "rights" which are really more like privileges.

theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun 2 years ago

I don't think anyone "gender critical" thinks the abolition of the sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas and beliefs that constitute "gender" is a realistic or achievable end goal. Or, for that matter, even a desirable one.

I'm confused by this because "abolish gender" is practically the gender critical slogan.

How could radical feminists see the abolition of the "sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas" as undesirable?

We are arguing against forcing everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to the strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that genderists hold dear.

You don't want everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that would be undesirable to abolish?

adungitit 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

lol men would claim that a stain on the carpet was made by evolutionary pressures if it somehow made their dicks feel better.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun 3 years ago

Gender is a psychological sense of being male, female, both or neither. Religion is the belief and worship of a god.

MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Gender is a psychological sense of being male, female, both or neither.

That's the definition of gender identity, not gender.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity

https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms#f

https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender‐normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non‐conformity

https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

Gender is hierarchical and produces inequalities that intersect with other social and economic inequalities. Gender-based discrimination intersects with other factors of discrimination, such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status, disability, age, geographic location, gender identity and sexual orientation, among others. This is referred to as intersectionality.

Gender interacts with but is different from sex, which refers to the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs. Gender and sex are related to but different from gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth.

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Religion is the belief and worship of a god.

That's only one kind of religion - monotheism. Many religions over the course of history have been polytheistic. In fact, until relatively recently in history when the Abrahamic religions arose & have come to be such major forces, polytheist religions predominated in much of the world over the span of time.

BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

Gender is a psychological sense of being male, female, both or neither.

So, what makes you feel you're male, female, both or neither? I'm a woman and I've no idea what is feeling like a woman.

Religion is the belief and worship of a god.

Not all religions have a god to worship. Buddhism is one example.

https://www.history.com/topics/religion/buddhism

MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

I thought there was a longstanding debate over whether Buddhism is a religion, with many Buddhists and non-Buddhists having different views on the matter.

https://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/blog/2010/may/6/buddhism-religion-gary-gach/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-buddhism-a-philosophy-_b_10176992

BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

Fair enough, I admit I don't know much about religion, philosophy, or buddhism. Though, I view buddhism as a religion because it includes some supernatural elements like rebirth.

MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

I have no opinion on the matter personally. It's just that I know there's been a long-running debate both within Buddhist circles and amongst others who like to bat around issues concerning theology & philosophy.

HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun 2 years ago

Are you serious? Okay...

Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods

Gender Identity: an individuals notion of their gender group orientation/membership.

These things are different and refer to different things. Even if GI doesn’t biologically exist, that wouldn’t qualify it as a religion anymore than subscribing to a magazine would qualify as a religion.

divingrightintowork[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

You seem to be misreading / missing the question and the emphasis that it is about social protocols around people with religious identities vs people with gender identities?

HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun 2 years ago

Oh, then thats all social protocols. They’re all subjective and enforced on people.

MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun 2 years ago

Oh, then thats all social protocols. They’re all subjective and enforced on people.

But social protocols are not all enforced on people to the same extent with the same measures, and particularly not across all cultures and over time.

In many countries today, it's fine to insult the heads of state of that nation and other nations. But in other countries, it's a criminal offense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9

Social protocols around religion vary considerably even in the countries of the secular West. In the West, you can insult Jesus, Moses and "god himself" without negative repercussions. Even Christians frequently "take the name of god in vain" by using common phrases such as "Good lord," "god damn," "Jesus, Mary and Joseph," and "Jesus fucking Christ." But draw a picture of Mohammed, insult the Koran, or depict Islam in what some Muslims consider a negative light, and even in "progressive" and plural places like France, the Netherlands and the UK, you're likely to get shot dead, stabbed to death or beheaded for it.

The social protocols in force in much of the Western world today say it's perfectly acceptable for trans-identified males to call women "cxnts," "bxtches," "menstruators" and "vagina havers," and it's fine for them to tell us to "choke to death" on "girl cock" and "lady dick" and to threaten us with rape, but it's completely unacceptable - indeed, it's hateful and violent - for women to call them men or males, to mention their former names, to point out that they have dicks and balls, and that their behavior is misogynistic and comes off as "stereotypically male." Which puts the lie to the claim that social protocols are all enforced on people in exactly the same to the same extent.

HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun 2 years ago

I believe that by and large both situations would be seen as unacceptable. There is far more negativity coming from the anti-trans side especially with the right wing surging and the alliances between them and some prominent gender crits.