So we have the first amendment that should prevent government making laws against speech and then yet we do have laws making some speech illegal?

theoracle · 2020-09-05T19:02:24+00:00

Tell em you hit enter.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T18:50:25+00:00

And thats when the gov makes them illegal....in fact they probably already are. It's actually disappointing that because of radio frequency regs mesh networks would otherwise be so effective that they would solve the last mile. Just look how effective wifi is with the tiny portion of spectrum it uses, imagine giving it a gigahertz. So much is wasted on broadcast systems.

I actually think a lot of what we are seeing now is a covert and overt push to reign in the internet. It has threaten too much of the old guards power. Look at the recent scene bust. Many systems have been put in place now to enable that. Soon I think most commercial encryption will be made useless, if it is not already.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T18:24:04+00:00

They should do an episode on America

theoracle · 2020-09-05T18:16:05+00:00

I wonder when the Isps will start becoming this bent.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T18:13:40+00:00

In what way is notabug doing this better? Nab.cx has been down for ages now.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:58:32+00:00

I think it's time to give up on reddit, it's a lost cause. The few subs I follow have really diminished since the ban wave. Once we have a platform with optional moderation things can be built properly.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:49:34+00:00

I was a long time lurker, and never had a reddit account. Wow was I in for a shock when I made my first actually only a few months ago. The place is literally a hell hole for free expression.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:45:46+00:00

I like your post, but I think choosing moderators could be quite easy with say a ranked list. If could get more obscure for particular types of moderation like for pyramids etc. I guess people will discuss these etc and that's how you'll find them. I think whole topics will form around just the various moderation styles themselves.

This is so obviously the future to me I am surprised it hasn't been done still yet. The first site to nail this down will dominate, it is so obviously better. It basically allows for all sites, topics, and users to coexist on one platform.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:37:32+00:00

It's actually an arm of marxism. Redefining words as in like racism becomes antiracism is a common tactic.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:34:37+00:00

and notabug calls itself "the back page of the internet" lol

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:33:20+00:00

Yes moderation is needed but why make it compulsory or only have one moderation option?

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:30:31+00:00

even better make it optional. Best of all worlds.

theoracle · 2020-09-05T17:30:06+00:00

The solution to moderation problems is optional moderation https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5dcx/idea_for_a_new_type_of_platform_a_tagging_based/

Allow people to choose who moderates for them or even allow them to have no moderation if they want. The tagging system is more complicated but alternatively you can simply have a button to turn moderation off.

theoracle · 2020-07-17T23:52:18+00:00

I am pretty sure that reddits situation is down to the mods and admins, which is down to the platform allowing them to be ahole dictators. Much better to give people the option to switch them off or to someone else, otherwise we will just have to keep forking into more and more sites.

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5dcx/idea_for_a_new_type_of_platform_a_tagging_based/

theoracle · 2020-07-17T22:08:50+00:00

Thanks for the reply. You raise quite a few points and I will try to address them all. So first I want to say is nothing can be certain until it is tried. So in that regard we won't fully or even actually know the results of optional moderation until it is implemented. Saying that we can look at some examples, Slashdot is one where you can filter based on post score. I always found that system worked well on Slashdot though it is very basic, but maybe simple things are all that is needed? Having said simple I would say Slashdot failed ,if you bring that point, because competitors like dig then reddit offered far more, so more can be better.

So Yes optional moderation "could" and likely would mean an option for downvotes, but it still depends on the platform making the choice to offer it.

You bring up the point what if the majority chooses to say all use certain moderators? Well how is that different to now that everyone is forced to use only one lot of moderators? On this point I will also raise the possibility that people will factionalize into using different mods, like left or right biased mods. To which I will say we now already have different platforms for these people.... This further marginalizes and I would say radicalizes people because they need to know and jump to the other platform if they want opposing opinions, and if they engage they are just going to be banned or deleted. Having a platform or federation of platforms that can have coexisting "safe spaces", already reduces the barrier of having to jump platform for those other opposing opinions. Then if the platform makes it very easy, likely though a button or list in the side bar to change your moderation, then those opposing opinions are literally just one click away. Humans are too curious not to click and engage occasionally. When this happens some very interesting things will happen I am certain. When you reduce barriers and build bridges, you get less division not more. I am going to get a bit out there but this could not only solve the issues of freespeech and much division on the net but it could also drastically reduce division in society. My main concern though is freedom is needed for progress, with the rise of authoritarianism, progress will reduce. We see attacks on freedom from either sides of the authoritarians, left and right. Please carefully look that Americas successes where founded in freedom. More freedom more choice is the successful action. That is why I think that this optional moderation is the correct path.

So I apologize if I am getting spammy with my comments. It's I see people recognize there is a lot of problems with platforms, it's why we are here. I see that there is a myriad of solutions that are thought up about how to handle these problems. magnora7 and d3rr have made saidit as one potential solution. Here you have some rules and an idea around a pyramid of debate, both which are hardly enforced ,and even if they were would not sit well and are not sitting well with many. Over on Ruqqus you have a different system gaining more traction. Then on Voat you have another system and group that has evolved. And we all know reddit. I don't think anyone is happy or entirely happy with any of these platforms. I know on the new platforms they have complaints like this thread and many others, ruqqus has for example already proven it is not freespeech... Yes there is speech that is not great or some people detest. What I think is worse is silencing people. You must protect all speech or you will slide. The solution to speech you don't like is YOU not reading it, and the best solution for that is optional moderation. You or anyone else shouldn't get to make that choice for someone else unless they want you to, that is why it should be optional.

My first post on this was just thinking out loud really and my last is where the idea has progressed to which interestingly developed on ruqqus. That is a tagging based system https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5dcx/idea_for_a_new_type_of_platform_a_tagging_based/ . So with that or some other systems you could moderate for many things. If you or a group decided to target a certain type of post, then that is what would be moderated. I personally hate much of the low effort karma whoring reddit posts, to me they are almost shitposts masquerading as something nice...

If this idea is to go anywhere it needs support, it also needs to evolve into it's best possible version. This is why I am posting and engaging. I think the developer go1dfish at Notabug is probably the most aligned to get this done. D3rr seems quite keen. What would be great is these guys and more can align to create something along these lines. I am not a coder but can and have, and am considering getting involved but I think for now advocating for this is probably the best use of the limited time I have for it.

So If I missed something hit me back with more.

Idea on this

Kinda like how a lot of Redditors just sort by top because they want to see witty, concise comments, giving those comments more chances at getting upvoted because the focus is piled on them. They don't really have anything against controversial opinions, but they just don't want to see them.

What about a bump tag? It would when attached to a post or comment would throw it temporarily to the top? Maybe each user id can only use it once to stop abuse and of course you as a reader could choose to turn this on or off for you!

theoracle · 2020-07-14T23:09:02+00:00

The problem with enforcing something like the pyramid is it requires heavy moderation which in turn requires a lot more moderators. Moderation and especially heavy moderation upsets many. As well moderators are only people and people make mistakes. This is why all moderation should be optional, with the reader having the ultimate say in what is moderated.

theoracle · 2020-07-14T23:06:24+00:00

Optional moderation solves this.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T22:55:31+00:00

Dear god have I had nightmares about this!

theoracle · 2020-07-13T22:53:22+00:00

but literally went to a shady russian place to quit hardcore drugs

So harsh but so true! My god do you have an attractive intellect!

theoracle · 2020-07-13T22:37:50+00:00

You backed out of that way too quick.

Now remember there is only 12 genders, so don't let anyone convince you there is 13. :-)

theoracle · 2020-07-13T22:30:03+00:00

That is what this tag system will be!

I posted the most basic implementation of something like this here https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5aia/can_we_have_an_option_preferably_in_the_side_menu/

Which is you have options for no moderation, moderation but only collapse comments/posts, moderation with them hidden. The default I think should be collapsed.

With such a system given you are not technically deleting anyone, then you can go heavier on the moderation. Go and target any dick posts for example.

Me personally I am usually fine with people being dicks as I have been on the net for long enough. Walls of spam aren't great but maybe admins can still delete those. I would most likely choose to have no moderation like I know many will. I think people will switch moderation modes as they feel like. If a mod is being a dick and hiding some things it will get darn obvious with all the collapsed posts/comments. You will likely see the situation grow out of hand for the mod quickly as more people bring to light his misdeeds and turn off moderation.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T22:17:17+00:00

So I watched the video thanks. This is an interesting idea for presenting data. I know I have on old forums had to wade through 100's and 100's of comments in threads to extract the useful info. The vote system is meant to help with that but it doesn't always. In some instances good ideas can get downvoted because of the ignorant masses...

To implement your system it requires moderation, which presents the problem of who is your moderator? And for that I think optional moderation is the best solution. You could have tags which are specifically around your concept, and then the platform could have an option to organize based on those tags. You would also likely have a group to moderate on it too.

There is however an alternative solution which I have used. That is you read though an entire post and extract all the relevant info, add or modify as you see fit, and then make a new post, and in that way the idea progresses and is refined. You will see with my post history on this post's idea that is what I have already done....

On a side note I actually had an idea for another site or platform with was solely about distilling all the truths of human knowledge. It would basically try to find and verify every possible piece of knowledge humans have about anything. All the way from things in academia like about physics and chemistry etc to things in trades like techniques of woodworking or how to do various things. We have representations of these everywhere in schools or on youtube, but I want it distilled so you have the best representation of them.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T21:44:15+00:00

Yes it is something like that though a little more complicated. The problem with mods is when they themselves become the dicks... and then sometimes people being dicks is fun...

theoracle · 2020-07-13T21:19:13+00:00

It is de-legitimizing the election for certain. These platforms are also aiding terrorists(antifa). i believe that should qualify them to have their assets frozen.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T21:09:06+00:00

Well I think it depends to the degree the system allows you to organize based on tags or links. At some point obviously it will get too hard to code or run, so simpler will likely be more possible.

A well formed group of moderators will go a long long way to getting what you want though. I see this as the only way something like the Pyramid of debate is going to work. For on a platform like reddit you would probably need thousands of moderators and they would need to be ultra heavy. There is just so many low effort, low quality, bait like posts that occur. Already you can see the pyramid is breaking everywhere here and there is no way the couple of admins could keep up even if there was reports which I doubt there is.

I see that moderation should be more organic and much less authoritarian. The platform should seek technical solutions over human ones as much as possible and that means not relying on things like admins. Notabug seems to have no admins and yet it works, imagine if some of the features in spaces where implemented as it could be a very different platform with many personalities.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T20:48:37+00:00

I think likely there should be limits on one user adding subject tags to a post, maybe 2 or 3. The point of other users adding tags is it allows ideas to spread but also maybe more appropriate subject tags to accumulate.

The good thing about the tag based subs is it will prevent repeat instances of the same sub like we have now, as there will be no reason to split communities over mod issues because they are gone.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T20:44:05+00:00

One drawback of this "subs are tags" idea is that it's harder for a sub to develop a unique personality/community because these are now gone, I think: sub rules, custom CSS, user flairs, and automoderator config.

So the unique personality would form around the moderators. Automoderators would have to be bots people setup, though I am thinking that making the system bot resistant would be wise... Custom css could still be done, you could have something like notabug spaces or pages people can make. Sub rules come down to who is your moderator. This is the whole point, you as a reader can choose the rules. It takes most of the power away from mods because they can be just deselected or switched out. I can understand current mods won't like this system because many are power tripping aholes, but making people little dictators over our speech and what we can see is totally antithetical to our society it is beyond a joke.

I mean seriously over on reddit and like you basically have little Kim Jong-uns, Saddam Husseins and now quite literally Xi Jingping who bought the place running it and running over anyone they don't like or merely don't agree with... it's fucked beyond belief.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T20:27:55+00:00

So you as a user you would have to moderate for them. You could form a group that moderates on them and advertise yourselves as that. A reader could select say the group "Investigating the truth", things would then be moderated based on that group. The ways things are moderated could be quite complicated, hiding things, collapsing, highlighting posts or maybe parts of text, special comments, maybe even edits... you could have group based voting. All actions are individual based so all members of the group can be audited and someone could if they wanted deselect individuals from the group, or make a new group etc.

The point is the ways in which things are customizable are truly massive. The platform would be able to support the function of any existing platform, so no one would want for another. The advantage is although users may choose to segregate, all opposing community opinions would be just a click away and so it is quite likely many people would end up reading the opposing views they have been hidden from and new consensuses would hopefully form. I think this will bring more unity in society and not the closed off boxes it seems it could create.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T20:15:33+00:00

Mentioned it on Joe Rogan and Joe Rogan has mentioned it multiple times since. My memory may fail me on some of this but he wants a distributed wild west twitter probably based on blockchain, where you can say anything but the reader can filter things.

As https://ruqqus.com/@1010011010 has mentioned these things would be hard to monetize so that is one reason no one has done it.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T13:30:30+00:00

Thanks but I am going to disagree and say there is a place for censorship but it MUST be optional. There is certain types of speech that are really only disruptive like, spam, trolling, and some low effort posts. Users though should be the ones with ultimate control on what is censored and ONLY for them. No one should be made dictator over what you may or may not see and read except YOU! The choice on how you experience a platform should be yours.

https://ruqqus.com/post/tiz/optional-moderation

theoracle · 2020-07-13T13:23:35+00:00

I hate reddit and want to see it burnt to the ground. I am quite certain if they tried my idea they would most certainly cuck it. The only person with a major platform I would hold any hope to implement it is Jack Dorsey and that's because he has expressed a desire for something like it.

theoracle · 2020-07-13T13:20:35+00:00

That's a bit of a silly idea. A platform will gain much more traction I think with one nice domain. nab.cx is quite good. The problem with spaces is being incomplete and hard to use. You really want a simple list of moderation options you can turn off and on somewhere like in the side bar.

theoracle · 2020-07-12T22:54:24+00:00

The solution to defeating reddit is to make a better platform. People are surely need for that but the technology and code needs to be right and different and new. I think optional moderation is the change needed. Notabug seems to be the best of all the new platforms it's just sad it's unfinished. The biggest issue with notabug is no moderation should not be the default, that should be the option.

theoracle · 2020-07-12T22:38:43+00:00

Alt subs are just so messy, let everyone post under the same subject but choose how they are moderated.

theoracle · 2020-07-12T22:36:57+00:00

and because of trying to not be like voat

There is a number of factors to voat, and freespeech is only one. Others are down votes, dominating personalities ,lack of any opposition combined to suppress any opposition. I think there is multiple ways you can avoid voat while still having absolute free speech, and optional moderation is one good way. Look how well post collapsing works on Notabug.

notabug.io (which I think has a pretty neat concept) and free

Notabug is alpha, a lot of the features are incomplete. Developer is gone too.

theoracle · 2020-07-12T22:27:57+00:00

This problem will just keep coming up, optional moderation is the solution. I think try that basic implementation and then see how it goes you can probably let what ever subs appear in /all with it. The pyramid of debate is not going to work without heavy moderation and heavy moderation will turn off a lot of people. The collapsed mode will probably work for most. I am not sure you guys could keep up with the number of reports though. Already the "no moderation" Ruqqus has adopted a growing core group of admins/moderators that can ban and remove things site wide, they are doing things like quarantining subs and shadow bans.... You need to head off ending up on the same path to reddit as soon as possible and I think a technical solution is the best. Look how well no down vote has worked. Tech is best.

theoracle · 2020-07-10T10:37:34+00:00

Amber must be like 10-10 on the crazy hot scale.

theoracle · 2020-07-09T20:28:53+00:00

Thanks d3rr I would really like to see this implemented as I think freedom of choice is what platforms are missing. I made a post on it https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5aia/can_we_have_an_option_preferably_in_the_side_menu/ to see support and ideas. I know magnora7 is concerned it could turn the place into voat. But I feel that voat is what it is because of it's users and there censorship is used much like on the authoritarian left does to suppress the other side. This idea of mine hasn't really been tried thoroughly yet, so no one can be certain what it will produce. But I think because it aligns with people's natural rights like freedom of speech and choice then it will work well, for the same reason the concept of America worked well, freedom is the better way.

Maybe if you implement this and see an uptick in growth and it seems to work well, you can consider the more full idea.

And yes certain content like dox/illegal will need to be handled differently.

Thanks

theoracle · 2020-07-09T20:09:43+00:00

Use a relinking service or post the link in an image, preferably do it in multiple ways

theoracle · 2020-07-09T20:02:45+00:00

That's the thing they don't seem censorship resistant at all. Well at least not how they are using them, as the amount of censorship going on makes reddit look mild. They are basically deleting ANY right wing opinion or user....

Would it be hard to implement an option in the side bar to make moderated comments either hidden, collapsed or revealed? I think that would be the best most simple implementation of my idea.

If you have that option, I think you will have an edge over ruqqus, which is growing at a crazy rate now.

theoracle · 2020-07-09T19:56:35+00:00

Freedom of choice is important too. For that optional moderation is a solution. We should be able to choose if and who moderates for us.

theoracle · 2020-07-09T19:55:21+00:00

Thank you please petition magnora7 and derr to get it. The most basic implementation is a side menu option to make moderated comments/posts either hidden, collapsed or reveal.

theoracle · 2020-07-09T19:49:38+00:00

I would like a check box/menu in the side bar to make moderated comments and posts, either of these options hidden, collapsed or revealed. These basic three options would be a start towards optional moderation. Let the readers choose what they want to see.

theoracle · 2020-07-08T21:19:18+00:00

Mail in, literally anyone can do it.

theoracle · 2020-07-08T21:15:21+00:00

If you haven't you can read about my ideas for a better platform.

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://ruqqus.com/post/tiz/optional-moderation

A user on ruqqus proposed a tagging system which I think is good and I will make a post on it.

theoracle · 2020-07-08T21:02:53+00:00

I had a look at lemmy and it's extreme leftwing pro antifa stance is quite scary. I thought of federation as a good way to protect against plarforms that go bad, but what lemmy and it's friends are doing is just cutting off platforms they don't like from their fediverse, like with Gab....

I have been discussing my idea on ruqqus and a user there had some really good ideas for a tagging system as well as some blockchain stuff. I will make a post on the tagging as I think that's the way to implement my idea.

theoracle · 2020-07-08T20:51:20+00:00

Well that is what is happening at ruqqus, any sub/guild can pull from general. I think it's a stupid system, but only because much better can be done.

I have discussed this on ruqqus https://ruqqus.com/post/tiz/optional-moderation and a user 1010011010 had some excellent ideas for a tagging system. The basic premise is anyone can tag a post or comment, the tags themselves could describe moderation actions, or categorization etc, I would guess you could take it further that edits and the comments are tags as well. Users can then filter based on tag or who did the tag etc. So anyone is free to moderate by tagging posts or I guess users too. If you are good at moderating or say do it a lot I might use you to filter things. Everything would be public so anyone could audit.

I was going to copy paste the comments from 1010011010 but alas ruqqus is down as usual. I will make a post when it is up.

theoracle · 2020-07-08T20:39:15+00:00

No I don't agree. It would be voat plus reddit. Remember all the people from voat were once on reddit and probably still are. It is just they have been forced to only post one way on one platform and another on others. What I am suggesting is to let everyone coexist.

What you are saying actually is you don't like all free speech or allowing people to choose what they see. That's fine magnora7, but mark my words the platform that does allows the most freedom in both areas, speech and choice, will be the most successful. Currently that is ruqqus.

If you want to argue the societal benefit to my proposed system I would say it reduces the barriers between people. As it is now if someone wants to post like on voat they have to go to voat and the echo camber there is reinforcing and likely further radicalizing.

I will also say that those against freedom have proven on the wrong side of history. America was once much more free, and much less woke and fought against some of the biggest aholes in history and won. Currently the biggest ahole is the CCP and they own reddit. Remember it was 4chan that exposed them and their virus. How free is 4chan?

theoracle · 2020-07-08T20:19:41+00:00

It is stupid that deleted comments can't be revealed by anyone. If there's legal issues or dox then you could make that separate and actually delete proper, but that is probably an issue for admins. Process could go mod selects option for illegal or dox, admin reviews, if it's wrong then there is repercussions for the mod.

theoracle · 2020-07-07T21:02:54+00:00

They are delegitimatizing the election. If Trump loses I don't think many will accept it given the scale of election interference by the left.

theoracle · 2020-07-07T20:58:25+00:00

Most people are politically homeless. In America a leader gets only 20% vote support leaving the other 80% asking WTF.

theoracle · 2020-07-07T20:52:31+00:00

Speech is a physical thing. Removing it causes damage. Would you like me to remove you or your property?

theoracle · 2020-07-07T20:50:02+00:00

nope it's just 4 letters. Take your woke shit back to reddit.

theoracle · 2020-07-07T20:48:59+00:00

Magnora7 it will get ridiculous trying to enforce the rules you have as the site grows. You need to fix the site structurally so you don't need to do that. I say let people have their own rules and make moderation optional. Start by just having a button to disable moderation and reveal posts and comments.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T22:26:56+00:00

No your not a downer at all, but very helpful. I think it's sad that people(mods) would get annoyed if deleted posts could be revealed. Collapsed they still occupy the same space as deleted. Maybe you can make them hidden, with an option to reveal?

NAB and saidit using different languages sucks... would make sense then to not contribute too much to either and just move to the latest project lemmy like you mentioned.

I ideally want the moderation to be completely separate from the posts. Posts are the raw data then you have the option to filter on top. Like browsing the web with an adblocker etc.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T22:04:31+00:00

Nab already has spaces so I could work from that. I have no idea what I am doing so I would need some examples to get started. Maybe after working on NAB sometime I could move to lemmy.

What's the deal with NAB on getting contributions integrated if go1dfish is absent?

Who is doing lemmy and do you think my idea would have traction with them? I guess it's mastodon? https://mastodon.social/@LemmyDev

Lemmy looks really good, clean and fast. Whats the plan with saidit and lemmy? Just federate or switch to it?

theoracle · 2020-07-03T21:39:58+00:00

MMM sounds fresh.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T21:13:49+00:00

Hi d3rr nice to meet you. I think it's a good idea. I can totally accept that it could be a hell of a lot of work to fully implement. My idea on implementation though would be to try implementing it incrementally, an Elon Musk style strategy. To that way is there any small part that would be easy to implement? I was thinking that comments instead of being deleted could be collapsed. The deleted comments already present a problem for reviewing moderation logs. Deleted posts can still be read but not comments. You would still delete illegal stuff for certain.

I am up for trying to help with code and with improving Notabug, but I am somewhat novice. Surely some code can be copied from Notabug to saidit?

Is the code on github?

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:59:32+00:00

If you advocate violence, you get removed.

If you repeatedly drag the quality of discussion down the pyramid of debate you can get removed.

That's really all there is to it. Just do your best!

You are advocating violence against speech.... I am being serious.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:56:40+00:00

Admins will get overwhelmed when the site gets bigger. Solution is optional moderation.

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:53:16+00:00

Far better to have optional moderation, then just have a team of people dedicated to moderating for the pyramid of debate. With an open log everyone can review each moderator to see they are actually moderating correct, and then deselect them if they don't.

Oh and can we hide comments instead of deleting them? Kind of hard to review mod actions if deleted comments can't be read. Remember a bit is not a bug :-)

Free speech and free listening!

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:46:14+00:00

Optional moderation will solve this nicely too. How great would it be that you could just click a filter that has all the subs you don't like on it filtered out? You would be free to make this filter or any else could and anyone could select it from a ranked list with other filters.

Free speech and free listening!

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:38:34+00:00

Admins are just going to have headaches dealing with all these would be dictator mods. We need optional moderation :-))

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:36:51+00:00

No it is a system that is not working well. We need optional moderation. Don't allow little tyrant mods to get attention. Let people choose who and what moderates for them.

Free speech and free listening!

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:35:14+00:00

Optional moderation solves this. You will recreate reddit without it. There is no way a few admins are going to be able to prevent a reddit or voat occurring with out some basic system in place to prevent it. I say let reddit, voat and hell even 4chan all coexist on the one platform. Let users choose who and what moderates for them. Free speech and free listening!

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:29:17+00:00

I am going to go on Notabug and see if I can get the ball rolling again to improve the site.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:26:03+00:00

lol nice name!

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:25:15+00:00

definitely don't go to the trouble of creating an account to post.

Sites that allow anon comments have some of the best I find. The hassle of so many sites and making accounts stops most centrists that are already too busy living from posting.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:20:54+00:00

So the real issue with voat is downvote?

The issue is not the downvote but how the system reacts to down votes. Down votes combined with up votes are a really good measure of a post. If a post has nothing but downvotes it is near 100% worthless but if it has lots of up and down votes it could be really good. Have a look at posts on Notabug where anon can vote as many times as they like.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:16:58+00:00

What is so wrong about Voat? Genuinely curious.

Go read it! I think many people are just larping, or at least I hope so though.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:10:43+00:00

Radfem? How do people come up with and handle all these labels? Can't people just be people?

Woke culture is quite sad it is the end result of Soviet programs to disrupt American society from decades ago. Victims are merely tools to a now dead foreign power. China though is pushing on it again and is likely the cause of some increase. The foundations though were strongly laid in what are now many of the "professors" at academia.

theoracle · 2020-07-03T20:01:19+00:00

It says 48hr time limit on new accounts, but my posts were reasonable so. Saidit was quite less active then so less to post on. I think these sort of forced moderation rules are stupid and is another reason why moderation should be optional.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T20:31:37+00:00

Nothing more satisfying than downvoting someone that you think is wrong.It's like shorthand for telling them they're an idiot - keeps things much more civil.

Except when people downvote stuff they just don't understand. As in it's the group that is wrong not the poster.

Remember that time Galileo got down voted and banned?

theoracle · 2020-07-02T20:28:21+00:00

I like saidits design more

theoracle · 2020-07-02T20:20:18+00:00

But how do you get along with the cat ladies?

theoracle · 2020-07-02T20:13:29+00:00

It's 100% necessary. Who decides why is a post censored? Why as a reader can't I make that decision? How will the limited admins cope with reddit scale 80 posts a second? The moderator logs do not show the comments content that was deleted, so how can I trust the moderators actions?

Just like you have free speech, you should have freedom to hear and read. Forced censorship is like book burning. Optional censorship is like have different book stores. Completely different.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T20:06:17+00:00

How do you see that happening? because I see the complete opposite as stated in the post. You will have many options to moderate. We could even make the moderation actions public, so you could copy them edited out the bad bits etc and make a new one. This is why it is optional. You can choose if and what moderation you want.

Maybe read some of my post and comments here on the idea https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/

Thanks

theoracle · 2020-07-02T19:58:58+00:00

So I discovered on rereading the spaces guide that only a small part of it is actually working...so yes it is very alpha.

Someone could take up the mantle of using spaces to do some moderation, but again you need to type in every ban or deletion so it could be arduous.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T19:51:59+00:00

Shadow banning is disgusting. Such a weaselly thing to do.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T19:50:32+00:00

Ruqqus has an option so you can hide your post history. I think it is good and would like it here. Otherwise anonymous posts or make other accounts is a good shield. But I hate people who prejudice people over previous posts.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T19:47:46+00:00

I was just becoming to love saidit when I saw a heap of my first posts had been deleted by an automoderator here...

Truly the only solution is optional moderation. https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-02T02:38:14+00:00

I'll use it some more and get back to you but overall it's too hard to use, normies will never go for it like that. The collapsed posts can get so voluminous that they interfere with reading. Some basic spam moderation would be nice, guys are just going full copy pasta nuts. Spaces is confusing and seems to not work or have bugs, like in one instance I got a page full of errors and something about this looks like it is a bug or something. The vote system and collapsing I don't think are good. Half the time something is collapsed it could be worth reading but you have to spend time fishing.... it doesn't work. The Slashdot system is better, enough downvotes then collapse or hide. Notabug say you can do that with spaces but when I tried it didn't work. You have to make a space type the command in, no simple slider like slashdot. Normies will never adapt even if it did all work.

To me notabbbug comes off as a bit alpha not yet beta. I will play with it more though.

Oh and to add the majority of people who are posting are anon, so it makes it impossible to follow anyone, atleast on 4chan they have session ids. All the shitposters are anon too, so you can't turn off anon and be rid of them, and no one is doing any moderation at all it seems.

The Portal I find excellent.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T02:21:41+00:00

The problem I am trying to solve is the ahole mod. The one who doesn't want his users engaging is some form of speech. I have watched countless hot topics get deleted and edited because the mod is well in my mind nuts.

The problem that federation causes is users have to jump to a different section, and they probably won't. But if you give them a button to press to disable the stupid mod and they can see people commenting on something that is hidden, and the conversation is engaging and they are interested? Well they hit that button. They then maybe start a post asking why the mod is such a retard? he bans more and more people, eventually the sub is out of his control because he has to ban so many people they just all disable him.

I want to organically neuter the retard mod.

My full idea is to abandon the sub model and just tag posts. You have mods or filters that aggregate certain tags. Notabug has this all I know but it's just not refined enough.

Hopefully go1dfish didn't get caught in the riots as notabug seems like an anarchist's creation. Notabug does seem like something Eric Weinstein would be involved in... and he is hardly a rioter :-)

BTW do you listen to The Portal?

theoracle · 2020-07-02T02:04:06+00:00

Thank you. I have been sitting on it for probably a decade. I was surprised to see Notabug has already tried it with "spaces", but alas over there it's a bit like using the command line vs a gui. I would guess some of the code from Notabug could be adapted to get it working. The most basic implementation is to just have a switch to turn moderation off... ideally though I want it far more sophisticated than that. I like my posts pretty raw but spam will drive anyone nuts.

I think Slashdot was probably the first to try something like this where you could slide and change the view preference for different posts based on vote count, like below something is collapsed and below that is hidden etc.

I really really think that this idea of optional moderation will solve most of the issues people are facing in forums. And if saidit or anyone was to implement it well they would eventually capture more traffic than reddit.

Now having said that one of my other solutions to this is open sourcing the content. I cover it in my other post before this, it's a bit long, https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/52rx/attention_magnora7_my_ideasolution/ . Basically what that will do is prevent just one platform locking things down. So if saidit gets it wrong then someone else may get it right. Now I am hoping saidit gets it right though! I really like magnora7 and what they have done. And they have technically "open sourced" the content, in fact maybe even better. They have federated it which is they are sharing it across platforms.

I do however have my reservations about saidit, there wasn't a strong commitment to free speech, and although the pyramid of debate is a great idea it was never going to work. But wait. So I hoped over to ruqqus and well after coming back here and looking at things, like with federation and Notabug I think free speech has a good chance here. And there is a possibility that the pyramid of debate could succeed. For something like the pyramid of debate to succeed you are going to need a huge moderation team, 1000's for a reddit size forum. I can only see a moderation team on that scale working with optional moderation. But people should be free to choose.

This problem needs to be attacked at both ends, you should be free to speak, but also free to choose what you want to read.

Freedom both ways.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T01:36:20+00:00

Bans under the system will basically be as effective as bans unless they are unjust. So bans would not be bans but just flags that all a users further posts/comments are either hidden or collapsed. So depending on which moderator you select will depend on who is "banned".

Also I feel nonbanned users comments on banned posts should still have their comments shown. This will cause either questioning why something is hidden and then people to disable or switch moderation. And if more people engage with comments on banned posts it will force that moderator to either ban more users or unbanned the banned person, because if the ban is unreasonable it will cascade into people possibly abandoning the moderator. Hurrah!

I have come to this after much thought over many many years probably a decade. Having faced silent editing, deletion and the worst shadow banning. I have watched as moderators make up stories and slander, it disgusts me the power these people can wield. The thing is the main trouble I have faced with moderators is ones with with financial ties to their boards. It amazes me how groups end up with industry insiders running the moderation. :-O The financial benefit is obvious.

Having sad that I have seen like now with reddit some ridiculous moderation events. What is going on now is nothing short of a religious war, and during the current social crisis it is not what we need and it is probably a large cause of it.

theoracle · 2020-07-02T00:08:15+00:00

Please dont everyone should be welcome. It's reddit we want to burn down.

Optional moderation is the solution to everyone getting along . https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-02T00:06:10+00:00

Optional moderation is the solution https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-02T00:02:13+00:00

Optional moderation is the solution https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-01T23:57:27+00:00

Optional moderation solves this

theoracle · 2020-07-01T23:56:41+00:00

Shit moderators are a huge problem. Optional moderation solves all this.

theoracle · 2020-07-01T23:48:07+00:00

Solution is Optional Moderation. Then no one mod can completely control a sub or own it.

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-01T23:17:54+00:00

Optional moderation solves this

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/54cp/can_we_make_moderation_optional_can_we_have/

theoracle · 2020-07-01T22:56:51+00:00

Thanks for discussing this with me ccccccc. You have been very helpful!

I am not certain on the problems with running anon sites, but I would gather the deep/corpstate will come knocking making all sorts of requests at some point. Maybe just leaving it to the users at some point is the only easy way.

Federation covers my point on open sourcing the content, which is a must. It is not what I have in mind for the optional moderation part though. It makes it too complicated and wont stop moderators banning and deleting posts they shouldn't.

I am happy to put some money towards this. Go1dfish seems uncontactable though.

theoracle · 2020-07-01T22:44:35+00:00

Ok after thinking about this and looking at notabug, the idea I want and it's name should be Optional Moderation. I edited the post to reflect it.

theoracle · 2020-07-01T22:40:36+00:00

notabug founder go1dfish seemed to be on the right path with notabug but he has long abandoned his baby now :-(

Things like an easier way to enable spaces, like in a table on the side. Options to completely hide anons etc. Would make it much better.

Ohwell heres to hoping optional moderation comes to saidit...

theoracle · 2020-07-01T22:35:30+00:00

If I could code that would be good. I guess I can learn, but I am not sure I have the time. I gather I would also have to set up a new website? That is getting too much for me.

https://dev.lemmy.ml is not what I am thinking. The rules there are already too restrictive and there seems no option to turn them off.

I am envisaging a place where everyone can co exist. Moderators can only rule by acceptance, users choose who moderates for them.

theoracle · 2020-07-01T22:25:07+00:00

I am sorry but I don't think the LETTERS T E R F are rude but then I don't think F U C K is rude either. PLZ go grow and toughen up.

theoracle