QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-02T11:17:41+00:00

I would suggest that you take this as an opportunity to reflect on the attitude that you've come into this discussion with.

The fact that you have a "feeling" that my ideas are misogynistic / sexist but can't find any examples of my having actually said anything that fits that profile suggests to me that you are reading my into my comments with some kind of pre-existing bias.

I sense we're done here, but something to think about.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T07:38:18+00:00

Firstly, I would never use the word "transwoman". When I talk about a "trans woman" I am using the word "trans" which is a shortened version of the adjective, "transgender". To smash the two words together like that invites exactly the kind of misunderstanding that you seem to have here, but I'll see if I can clarify.

Because of this, the question:

The issue comes down to this question: what definition of transwoman allows someone to be a one without contradicting the idea that anyone can be a woman regardless of their physique or appearance?

Is a bit of a non starter. I would not use the word "transwoman" and I do not believe that anyone can be a "trans woman" regardless of their physique or appearance, except in the most technical sense.

To be a "trans woman" a person must (a) be trans, and (b) be a woman.

A person is trans if they identify with a different gender than the one that was assigned to them at birth. As for being a woman, I imagine that this is actually where we differ.

You are saying “trans” is an adjective for woman, but it’s not. Compare how it works with the adjective “tall”.

“Tall woman” communicates “adult human female of above average height”. Take away the last four words and what do you have left? A woman.

“Transwoman” communicates “adult human male who identifies as a human female”. Take away the last six words and what do you have left? A man. All “trans” is doing is flipping the meaning to the opposite word.

This seems to be a fundamental part of your misunderstanding. When I talk about a "tall woman" I am not talking about an "adult human female of above average height", I am talking about a person who identifies as a woman who is above average height.

Similarly, when I talk about a "trans woman" I am talking about a person who identifies as a woman and whose gender identity is different from the one that they were assigned at birth. The word "trans" doesn't change the meaning of the word "woman" at all.

The way that you are using the word "woman" (aka adult human female) a "trans woman" would be an adult human female whose gender identity is different from the one that they were assigned at birth.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T10:29:29+00:00

isn’t it contradictory (and transphobic) to refer to people in a way that implies the body has bearing on gender-based categorization?

Calling someone a "trans woman" does not imply that the body has a bearing on gender-based categorization. I'm not sure why you think it does, to be honest. We call certain people trans women because as well as being women, they are trans. You seem to be using the word trans as though it's a modifier on the word woman, when in fact it's an adjective describing a person who, in the particular example you are referencing is also a woman. You can equally say "trans person" or "trans hairdresser" as you can "trans woman".

Trans woman != woman. Trans woman is a sub category of woman, a woman who is also trans.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-05T07:55:23+00:00

We all recognise it

So I guess you're all also sexist then, by your logic.

What you seem to be missing somehow is that society doing it doesn’t mean it’s good or that we should do it more.

What? When did I ever say that it was good? I think that the way that society defines gender is bad.

We have spent days saying it is sexism to redefine woman, a biologically distinct group, as an identity anyone can have.

And that is something that I've never done. I do not have the power to define, or redefine words.

I don't assume that when you say a woman is an "adult human female" that you are redefining the word according to what suits you. I understand that you are describing a way you believe the word is used. Why, when I describe a different definition, do you make this assumption?

We have spent days practically drawing diagrams of how it is sexist to say “a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman” and how this very statement infers that woman is not an adult human female but is instead a feeling, because words do not simply grow in meaning the way you have pointlessly insisted they do.

Wait... So am I understand that the problem is that you think that I think that adult human females do or should fit the definition that I've laid out for the word "woman"?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-05T07:26:29+00:00

Right. I'm sure it makes your world view easier to imagine that any "adult human females" who don't share it are just incapable of recognising sexism. It's certainly a convenient out for having to explain why you think my views are sexist.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-05T06:46:30+00:00

I'm listening. I've been here for days listening. I've yet to hear an argument for why it's sexist to recognise that society classifies people according to sexist stereotypes. That recognition is necessary to my feminism and to fighting back against those stereotypes and it would be doing a disservice to women to give it up because some people on the internet feel, in some way that they can't describe, that it's bad.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-05T06:39:25+00:00

You claim women cannot be defined by biology

I have repeatedly said that the word has multiple meanings, one of which (adult human female) is solely defined by biology.

If you trully are not defining women based on sexist stereotypes

Sexist stereotypes have a good deal to do with what defines the usage of the word "woman" that I am talking about. It's not sexist to acknowledge the existence of sexist stereotypes.

LOL How can you not talk about a group of people when you are defining said group?

Well if the only statement you're making about that group is "can be referred to by mouth noise X" you're not saying anything about them, are you?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T20:59:47+00:00

But when women who feel this definition of yours denigrates, dehumanizes and denies the biological reality and dignity of those of us who are adult human females..

It's not my definition. While I disagree that it denies the biological reality of adult human females (rather, just not being about that), I agree that it's one that has its basis in an oppressive system of gender stereotypes. That is something that we should recognise and I don't see how shutting down discussion on the subject helps women.

You really weren't kidding when you said that in your view the only way a woman can be a woman is if she "identifies with" and accepts the inferior social class and regressive sex stereotypes that sexists and misogynists associate with and continually try to foist upon the female sex.

Honestly, why even respond if you're going to misrepresent what I say like this? What am I supposed to do here? It doesn't matter what I say, you've made up your mind as to what I believe and the actual words that I say seem to have no influence on that.

Why is it okay for you to keep hurling slings and arrows at women that denigrate and dehumanize us, but it's beyond the pale for us to voice objections to you denigrating and dehumanizing us?

It is not ok for anyone to denigrate and dehumanize women. If I thought for a second that this was something I was guilty of I would do anything to change that.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T16:39:28+00:00

A group can be oppressed without having different legal rights
It says right there in the article what they were protesting against. Are we going to pretend that it's not oppression to legally allow conversion therapy to attempt to turn boys into girls and vice versa, provided they're trans?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T13:49:55+00:00

You know, I am a person.

I have a mother, and sisters, and a daughter who I would do anything to protect.

I'm sure it's very easy for you to imagine that I'm just some internet troll with no feelings, but that's not the case. I'm here in good faith and trying my best to have a good and clear conversation here, and to have it suggested that I'm "denigrating and dehumanizing" people is beyond hurtful.

You have proven that no matter how much thought and care I put into my comments you will ignore them and respond to whatever preconceptions you have about what I believe, so there's really not any point in my engaging any further.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T11:10:21+00:00

If you can’t see how it’s sexist to believe that woman is a feeling a man can have or a display a man can make, you aren’t going to see the sexism however it’s illustrated.

I can't. I see sexism every day, but I can't see that a definition can be sexist. Definitions describe, they don't dictate.

If this is just a system some incorrect people use, why do you keep speaking as though it’s correct and sensible?

I am not speaking as though it's sensible, I think that gender is regressive and should be abolished. Do not take my description of how words are used as a moral position.

Clearly you do feel you have some power to define the word over us

Again, I can't choose how words are defined. All I have done in this thread is to describe how words are used.

And anyone who considers themself a woman is a woman in my book, as I have also repeatedly said.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T10:42:24+00:00

I never once claimed that gender was partly personal presentation. As I previously clarified, when I mentioned presentation I was referring to things that could indicate a person's gender to another person, not to gender itself.

Please tell me, what is a woman if not an adult human female

This is where this discussion started. I'm not interested in getting caught in an infinite loop, you can go back and read my earlier response.

and what is the term to refer to adult human females?

"Woman" is one, in some contexts. Another is "adult human female", which seems to be serving you perfectly well here.

If woman is a gender, it is not adult human females.

The word (like most words) has multiple meanings depending on context.

It’s sexist to say that the word that has exclusively referred to adult human females actually refers to a feeling men have

This is not something I have said, but even if it was - It is not sexism to describe a sexist system.

Like, you keep banging on about semantics but you see nothing wrong with adult human females having no langauge to refer to themselves? No word to name the basis upon which we are oppressed?

"Adult human females" is language that adult human females can use to refer to themselves. The basis on which they are oppressed is the basis of sex. Regardless though, if you see this as a problem, it's not one that I can solve. I have no power to change language.

It seems as though you want to repeat your semantic word salad at us without entertaining what any of our objections are actually about.

This is a discussion about semantics. I'm sorry if it seems like a "word salad" to you but semantics can get that way. What are your objections actually about? Please tell me.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T09:37:55+00:00

I did not previously state that:

gender is at least half personal styling

That's actually something that you said, and that I disagreed with:

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/9f5a/qt_the_most_damning_contradiction_of_trans/yhjq

Regardless, yes, I am saying that the word "woman" can refer to a gender.

You do not give any explanation in your comment of why you think that these beliefs are sexist. The beliefs you are talking about are about language, they are not statements about a group of people. It is not sexist to recognise that sexism exists and shapes the way that our society treats and categorises people.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T07:28:02+00:00

It’s the total denial that human females are not a biologically distinct group

I was not taking about human females at all in that statement. I was defining a usage of the word "woman" as it is applied to a different group.

When you say that I am "reducing women to sexist tropes" what you are doing is taking your definition of the word and applying my description of how an alternate usage is defined as though it is a statement about the group that your definition applies to. This is an easy mistake to make, particularly when the statement that I made has been removed from all context, but if you look at it in context I hope you can see that this is not what I was saying.

To be super clear, I do not believe that all adult human females identify with the social class associated with the female sex (that would actually be a belief that denied trans identities) and I absolutely do recognise that human females are a biologically distinct group. I'm not some science denier.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-04T07:24:34+00:00

Let's imagine that by "social class" I literally only meant sexist stereotypes.

How would that make the above a sexist statement?

I feel like this is just people processing that statement in a different way than I intended. If I had instead said:

A momo is a person who identifies with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex.

Would you still consider that to be a sexist statement?

I'm not talking about a group of people called "women" and assigning the attribute of "identifying with a social class" to that group. I'm defining a term. I can see how that could be unclear when you remove the sentence from its original context.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-03T19:19:41+00:00

Why do you seem so keen on making members of the two sexes use toilet facilities and change rooms together?

I'm not. I don't have a problem with sex segregated spaces. They were brought up in the context of addressing the problem with the word "woman" not referring solely to sex, and I was just trying to understand the position better.

ETA: You seem to be repeatedly interpreting my asking questions as me thinking (or pretending to think) that things are bizarre or totally new to me. Generally, I am asking because I want to understand the perspective of the particular person that I am talking to better, not because I haven't got my own perspective and understanding.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-03T19:10:56+00:00

I can see that you might disagree with that statement, but I can't see how it could be sexist. It is a statement about the usage of a word. It is not a statement about any group of people and certainly not a discriminatory statement about people of a particular sex.

If you genuinely think that I'm saying something sexist here, can you explain why?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-02T20:12:35+00:00

But none of us on the "GC" side have ever advocated for toilets solely for adult human females, nor would we. We advocate for sex-separate toilets for female humans of all ages

Yes, sorry, this is what I meant

I see your point about privacy, I guess I meant private in the sense of private Vs public. In that sense a private space is one that is shared by oneself and known others, and a public space is open to anyone. What do you feel privacy means in this context then?

Also, it's telling that in response to the statement that when males use spaces like women's restrooms ... You only commented on the privacy part.

Actually I commented on both. The next bit of my comment after that was asking about the safety bit. So yes, of course I care about the safety and dignity of women and girls. It's rather hurtful to suggest that it could be otherwise.

The reason women and girls lose privacy, safety and dignity when "trans women" use women's communal restrooms and other female spaces is because "trans women" are males. As such, when they use women's restrooms, they behave very differently there to the way females behave.

So it's about behaviour? Would you be ok with it then if you could be sufficiently sure that anyone behaving inappropriately would be able to be dealt with?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-02T11:14:16+00:00

I find it upsetting that you think I'm being intentionally confusing. I've put a lot of thought into my comments. I think part of it is just that discussions about language are inherently subject to communicate breakdowns, but I really have been doing my best.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-02T11:02:23+00:00

Toilets, sports etc are divided however we as a society decide. That seems a totally different discussion to me than one about what the word 'woman' means. If we want there to be toilets for adult human females then we can make that the case, regardless of what word we are using to refer to them.

Some of your other points here I find a bit troubling. Am I misunderstanding you or do you really think that only adult human females should be protected from being disadvantaged by sex based descrimination?

Women lose privacy, safety (real and perceived), and dignity.

Why would it be a loss of privacy to share a space with a trans woman but not with a non trans woman? It feels like "privacy" isn't really what you mean here. Any shared space is not private.

How is women's safety affected here?

They lose money and prestige and access to careers.

How?

Are you asking this in good faith or have you seriously not given it any thought how all this is impacting women?

I am here in good faith, and I have given this a lot of thought, but I really don't see that the fact that the word "woman" doesn't refer to only adult human females can be seen to be having a negative impact on them. They are still a distinct group who deserve respect and protection. It seems like you're conflating the language issue with a lot of other things.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T16:51:58+00:00

So in this analogy that you are making, what do the voting rights and free healthcare represent? What power and legal protections are being taken away from people by the fact that the word woman is not used to refer solely to sex?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T15:11:01+00:00

Thank you for giving a real answer to my question, it's really appreciated!

We seem to be mostly on the same page when it comes to the extent to which sex can be perceived. You point out that sex characteristics are extremely reliable cues, which is true, but they are (a) not 100% accurate and (b) not always visible. If by "humans can perceive sex" you mean that a humans can intuit sex with a very high level of accuracy, then yes, that is true. When I said that people cannot perceive sex what I meant was that there is no way to reliably know the sex of a person that is 100% accurate in all scenarios.

By declaring “woman” an identity that is open to anyone of any sex, you erase the global population of women whose status as such rests entirely on biology.

In what sense are they erased?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T13:39:37+00:00

Can you give me one example of a thing that I said that was sexist?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T13:32:15+00:00

If you didn't want to talk semantics this is the wrong thread for you I'm afraid. Personally I find this kind of thing interesting.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T13:24:36+00:00

I have no interest in redefining words. As I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread, what I am doing is describing my experience of how I have grown up using the word and how I see others around me use it. I have also been clear on the fact that this is not the only usage and that "adult human female" is another valid usage of the word.

According to you, females who reject genderism can't be women even if we have experienced pregnancy and given birth to children

I don't know what "genderism" is supposed to be, but I can assure you that I do not believe that a person has to have any particular belief system to be a woman.

according to you, being a woman has nothing whatsoever to do with biology

Being a woman is absolutely to do with biology. Both because there is another meaning of the word that refers exclusively to this, and because biology is one of the key things that defines the female social role.

it's entirely based on believing in the sexist, misogynistic ideology you believe in

What sexist, misogynistic ideology is that?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T13:11:23+00:00

The statement is the definition…. How do you not get this?

Yes, that's exactly the point I made, remember:

A definition is a statement about the meaning of a word.

Is what I said earlier

I didn’t accuse you of picking either

Yes, I know.

If what I used as a definition of cat is a statement about the definition, what is the definition of a cat?

I didn't say it was a statement about the definition, I said it was a statement about the meaning of the word cat.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T13:08:02+00:00

So gender is half made up of clothes, hairstyles, and internet pronouns?

No, gender is identity. Those are examples of things that might be indicative of a person's identity. As I said.

What makes one descriptor so different from another?

They're two different words. There isn't any reason that they should be similar.

How can you imply that nobody has ever identified themselves as tall with such certainty? What makes this an absurd concept?

When I use the word "tall" I am not describing an identity, so it is not possible for a person to identify as the thing that I mean when I say "tall". It's not absurd, just a logical impossibility.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T11:57:42+00:00

Of course we can perceive sex.

What do you think sex is if you think it can be perceived? How does a person perceive it?

meanwhile you ignore the viewpoints of billions of women that know they are such because of their reproductive biology and their history of being targeted for oppression because of that biology

How am I ignoring the viewpoints of millions of women and their history? What did I say to make you think that I am ignoring those things?

You don’t have the right to redefine what it means to be a woman to suit male interests.

On this we agree. No one has the right (or, indeed, the ability) to redefine words to suit their interests.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T11:39:46+00:00

You might as well ask "why is a cat an animal but a government isn't?" Those words refer to different things. Why would they be the same?

What indicates a persons gender identity, given that feelings are invisible?

Lots of things. The way they present themselves, how they self describe, etc.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T11:36:47+00:00

I said that a definition is a statement about a definition of a word. I did not say that all statements (or sentences) are definitions. Not all statements are about the meanings of words.

I honestly don't know what the rest of your comment is getting at. I didn't accuse you of picking parts of definitions and I don't know what you think I think about how definitions are written that leads you to make the following comments. As to:

What statement is being made about a definition there?

This is a statement about the meaning of the word Cat.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T08:41:53+00:00

I’m basing it on how I perceive them empirically. Everyone does;

So am I, I thought that went without saying.

You are (supposedly) basing it on your perception of their sex. You can't actually perceive their sex, but you can intuit it with some level of accuracy. I am basing it on my perception of their identity. I can't actually perceive their identity, but I can intuit it with some level of accuracy.

It is interesting that you seem to get how this works for “tall” but not for “woman”. Why is your concept of “tall woman” a person who identifies as a woman who is of above average height, rather than a person who identifies as a woman who identifies as above average height?

Because "tall" isn't an identity and "woman" is. Not everything is an identity. Most things aren't.

How do you not see you are erasing {adult human female}'s existence as a biologically defined class that is materially distinct from {adult human males}?

Because I'm not. Those two classes don't stop existing because we don't use particular mouth noises to refer to them.

What is stopping you from seeing how you’re only enabling misogynistic patriarchy by redefining womanhood into complete meaninglessness just so that men can take power from us?

I'm not redefining anything. I don't get to choose how words are defined. I'm just describing the world as I experience it.

Do you just not care how dystopian your logic is to most people?

I really don't see how it is dystopian. Maybe you can help me understand.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-07-01T08:34:48+00:00

Um.. what? Where did "sentences are all definitions" come from? Did you misread my comment?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T15:43:12+00:00

I never said that being a woman has "anything to do with how a person acts," though.

I didn't say you did. You have been very clear on what your position is on what makes a person a woman, I can assure you I have no confusion there.

To your example of women in a coma, that's a pretty unusual scenario. Generally a person's gender doesn't change, so if a person is no longer capable of thought I wouldn't necessarily change their language given that I know that that person has always been a woman.

What I would like to understand better is why it upsets you so much to think of people not being women?

You are right that not every person has a gender identity, of course.

I am also asking you to please stop insisting that everyone else must construct our sense of self the way you and other genderists do.

I'm not insisting that anyone do anything. I'm describing something that I believe most people naturally do. If I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong, but I'm not telling anyone what they should do.

There are several women in my family with Alzheimer's. They are women, and they consider themselves such. If they did not, I would not love them any less for it.

Also, even if it were true that only a very few people are affected by neurological conditions that make it impossible to have a gender identity, why don't they matter in your world view?

Of course they matter. I don't have to think that someone is a woman for them to matter.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T15:34:22+00:00

Why do you think it's bad for a person to not be a woman? If a person doesn't have a gender identity, what's the problem with recognising that they don't have a gender identity?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T14:53:11+00:00

I did actually answer your questions.

You asked:

So if you were making a documentary ... you'd never, ever use the word women once because you haven't personally spoken to every individual involved or affected and thus can't be sure they "identify" or "identified" "with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"?

To which I answered:

I would not call a person a woman if I knew that they did not identify as such. I don't think there's anything wrong with referring to someone as a woman without having had their identity explicitly stated.

Which I thought was pretty explicit, but to be as clear as possible, the answer was no. I would not avoid using the word woman (in any context) because I have not had a person state their gender identity to me.

You then asked:

If you were to go to a country where you don't speak the language and thus couldn't communicate with anyone, you would never once think of or describe any of the thousands of female adults you'd see on the streets and in crowded public places like airports, city squares and bazaars as women?

Which my first answer also answers. The only other question in your comment was:

And you'd tell yourself that the reason you are doing this is to avoid being disrespectful??

Which I took as being rhetorical, as you are simply restating something I said, but the answer is yes. I don't say things that I don't believe to be true.

Huh? Earlier you said that any/all adult human females who don't explicitly "identify with" the second-class social status and sexist stereotypes associated with the female sex in various cultures cannot be considered or called women, and that instead we would have to be considered "men or non-binary people."

Firstly, I did not say that people who don't "explicity" identify that way would be considered men or non binary people. What I actually said was that people who explicitly do not identify that way would be considered as such.

Secondly, the social class that is described by the word "woman" does include sexist stereotypes, yes, but that is not all that it is. It describes all the cultural associations as they are grouped together, and that includes physical ones like sex.

Finally, when I talk about a person "identifying with" something I am not talking about any statement that they may or may not make, I'm talking about how they think about themselves. In short, a person doesn't need to state their identity (or even think about it consciously) in order to have one.

As for how you can know what someone prefers for themselves, if you're getting it wrong they will tell you. If you are incapable of communicating with each other then what words you use doesn't matter anyway.

Now I feel like I've covered everything, but to be absolutely sure you won't accuse me of not covering any questions:

So how can you know what term that everyone on earth "personally prefers" for themselves?

You can't unless they communicate it to you.

The half of the population in Afghanistan who aren't allowed out of the house unless fully covered from head to toe in portable cloth prisons - what word would you call them?

I would call them women. If someone were to explicitly reach out to me and ask me not to refer to them as a woman, I would gladly change my wording.

How is it respectful to claim that they are not women because you personally don't know how each and every one of them "identifies" and because like most English-speakers, you probably don't know any of the words in their languages?

Again, I do not consider that I need to know how a person identifies before I can use a word for them, and even if I did, my not using a word for them would not make them not women. They are women regardless of what I think or say.

How is it not dictatorial to proclaim that because you and a lot of other people on earth personally do not know the words for women in Dari and Pashto, it means there is no word in English, French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Arabic etc that can be respectfully used for the adult female population of Afghanistan?

That's not a claim that I'm making so I see no need to defend it.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T13:03:58+00:00

I believe that any person that identifies as a woman is a woman. There is no correct way to be a woman.

I guess that the reason that this doesn't seem contradictory to me is that I don't really see identifying as a woman as a way of being. It's not got anything to do with how a person acts, it's just how they personally conceptualise themselves.

According to you, all the adult human males who today claim to "identify as" women are women, but the millions of adult human females on earth today who have Alzheimer's or other neurological conditions that make it impossible for them to "identify as" anything are not women.

This is what makes me think that we conceptualise identifying as a woman in entirely different ways. To me, identifying as a woman is basically just thinking "I am a woman". Of course there will be some neurological conditions that make this impossible, but it wouldn't be as common as you seem to think. A person doesn't need to understand why they feel that they are a woman in order to understand that they do. So no, I do not believe that a person needs to understand any particular theory to be a woman.

I also don't believe that biological sex doesn't matter. I have definitely not said as such, so where did you get that idea? You are clearly attributing ideas to me that did not come from me. It is because of things like this that I thought you were engaging dishonestly, though I have changed my opinion on that.

I wouldn't be on this sub if I wasn't prepared for people to push back against my ideas, so don't worry about that. I'm hear to share my perspective and to learn about the perspectives of others.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:57:38+00:00

The poem was just a bit of fun. It wasn't part of any point I was making, I thought that was clear.

First you tell me that I and billions of other adult human females cannot be called women and have no right to that word because we do not regard ourselves in the way you and other misogynistic dictators insist we must

I believe that any person that identifies as a woman is a woman. There is no correct way to be a woman.

It is misrepresentations of what I said like this that make me feel that you are not engaging honestly, but maybe I was wrong and we're just misunderstanding each other. I apologize if I came across as abrasive.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:34:54+00:00

Nope.

When someone says a sentence, they mean the whole sentence. You don't get to just pick out the words you like and pretend that that's what they said.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:31:47+00:00

None of this is an answer to why that is the correct definition for the word. Is it because experts said so? Why should what they say be valued above what other people say?

It’s inconsistent to claim something and then not operate according to the claim made.

Can you please explain where you think I did this

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:20:38+00:00

I would not call a person a woman if I knew that they did not identify as such. I don't think there's anything wrong with referring to someone as a woman without having had their identity explicitly stated.

And you'd tell yourself that the reason you are doing this is to avoid being disrespectful??

Yes, it would be disrespectful to refer to someone with a word that I know they do not identify with.

What is disrespectful in my view is your arrogant, high-handed decreeing that not a single one of the billions of adult human females currently alive planet earth - including your own mother probably - cannot be referred to as women unless they/we all make a declaration - and a declaration that you have personally heard or read, too

Again, no one has to have made any kind of declaration, and I would never refuse to refer to someone as a woman if they considered themselves such.

It's not dictatorial to refer to people by the language that they personally prefer. Quite the opposite. And I'm not male, not that it matters.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:13:56+00:00

A definition is a statement about the meaning of a word.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T11:09:23+00:00

No, because that’s wrong.

But why is it wrong? That was my original question to which you said that's what Australians are taught. If this isn't the answer then what is?

I am being consistent. Nothing in what I've said requires that I know why language has taken the path that it has. That's an entirely different topic of conversation.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T10:36:13+00:00

When new Australians are born, they see kangaroos and get told “that’s a kangaroo”.

So if a kid was born today and saw a wallaby and was told "that's a kangaroo", they would then be right to call wallabies kangaroos?

I'm not particularly invested in this discussion of whether a particular word is "useful". If a word is not useful it will fall out of use. If it doesn't, then it must be useful.

The sex of the adult human is what is being defined by use of man or woman for the majority of English speakers and has historically done so right up until a few adult human males took umbrage at this.

On this point I disagree. I don't think that people use the word "woman" to refer to sex in most contexts. Sex just isn't relevant to most situations that the word is used in.

You have just claimed that the English language works as you described

I've said that that's how I understand it, in perfectly aware that I may be wrong

so idk why you’re now saying you don’t know why the rules you claimed exist are applied?

Why would I?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T10:29:08+00:00

I never claimed that definitions don't exist. But yes, I believe that words are defined based on how people use them, and each person is going to have a slightly different understanding of the meaning of any one word.

You seem to be mixing up meaning and definition. If you have learnt a version of the word "woman" by which an adult female giraffe is a woman then you are not wrong to use the word this way, but this would not change the definition of the word unless there was a significant group of people or contexts in which the word was used this way.

You have claimed woman means whatever any individual says it means

Again, no, I haven't.

If you just claim that the word "woman" means that, that does nothing at all. What you say has no influence whatsoever on the meaning of a word.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T10:19:19+00:00

The word kangaroo would not mean wallaby to taxonomists even if every tourist and cityboy in australia thought it did. Those people would simply be incorrect.

How are you deciding who is correct here? Where did the "correct" definition come from if not how the word is used?

I think that’s what you think because that is what you’ve described

I've not described thinking that things are categorised by people with no knowledge of the thing. I don't know where that came from tbh

that is how you have claimed woman can refer to anyone except exclusively adult human females

That is not a claim I ever made. I have both provided a description of the word "woman" which is not in any way exclusive of adult human females and acknowledged the alternate usage of the word which uses it to refer solely to members of that group.

Like... How am I supposed to engage with you if you're going to completely make up nonsense like this?

Why is amoxicillin defined according to something other than feelings but the adult human female has no name?

I don't know, I don't decide how words are defined any more than you do.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T10:05:17+00:00

Can you please answer my question? How do you think language works if what I have suggested is "beyond daft"?

If words have no definition

I did not say that words have no definition. Definitions are what we use to describe the way that words are used.

how the fuck are you reading this?

I have no problem reading this because you and I have understanding's of most words that overlap to the extent that, in almost all cases, the differences that do exist don't matter.

Do you really think that amoxicillin is not a definitively defined chemical?

No, I'm sure it is definitively defined. That definition just does not (and cannot) account for the fact that there will be nuance in the meaning that each person takes away from the word.

That bovines are categorised by opinions had by people who have never seen a cow irl?

Why do you think that I would think this? I'm curious how you're interpreting what I'm saying here if it seems so strange and outlandish to you.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T10:01:03+00:00

Lmao sure, woman also refers to adult female giraffes, some models of Toyotas, and a delectable coffee based beverage.

???

I stand by everything that I've said. If you think that there's some inconsistency there let me know what it is and we can discuss it.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T09:36:07+00:00

What way do you think language works if not this way?

You asking what the world would look like if this is the case is a bit baffling to me. So far as I'm concerned this is the case, and the world is how it is.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T08:55:19+00:00

So white and yellow have meanings that are shared

I'm not sure how you got this from what I said. I would argue that no word has a shared meaning between any two people, but there can be more or less overlap between people's understanding.

Words are neither defined "personally", nor for the purpose of communication. Definitions simply do their best to describe the prevailing trends in how a word is used.

What is the alternative that you are suggesting? Where do words get their meaning if not from the people who use them?

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T08:50:22+00:00

The idea that adult human females are women is a part of the socially prescribed idea of a woman. If a person considers that they are a woman because they are an adult human female, I would consider that to be identifying as a woman. After all, no one relates to all aspects of womanhood.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T07:47:07+00:00

I'm not telling anyone who they are. I'm saying that your gender is defined by how you self identify. If you consider yourself a woman, you are a woman. If you consider yourself a man, you are a man. Otherwise, you are nonbinary. Simple as that. You absolutely don't need to "gel with what's considered feminine" in order to be a woman.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T07:42:40+00:00

If you genuinely believed this then it's not a lie, no.

Do words have definitions all speakers share? No, they don't. How could they?

If you paid me twenty grand to paint your house white, and I painted it neon green would you tell me I did a great job and pay up?

This would be a case where our different understanding of words has caused a problem in our communication (an extreme example, but this happens all the time!). As to how I would actually react in that scenario, I would not believe that you in good faith misunderstood what I meant by "white", and furthermore would expect that a professional house painter would, as part of their role, have an understanding of how people communicate their desire regarding the colour of their house. I would consider that a person who claims this misunderstanding is therefore either being dishonest or is not sufficiently good at their job, so it's not my responsibility to pay.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T06:39:31+00:00

You appear to take it as a given that everyone has the same exact mental faculties, ability to make sense of the world and thought processes as adults with normal-range IQs, fully developed brains and no impairments or neuro-atypical conditions...

I don't know what I've said that's given you this impression. You are incorrect. I am perfectly aware that different people have different styles and abilities when it comes to processing information.

what makes you think you are an expert on how the world's adult human females think about ourselves and see ourselves?

I don't think I'm an expert. You're asking me to defend something that I literally never claimed.

If a person didn't identify as a woman I wouldn't call them one, no. That would be disrespectful. But if someone does identify as a woman, I will respect that. It's as simple as that. I can't understand the issue you seem to see with that. If a person didn't identify as a woman, they wouldn't want to be referred to as one

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-29T06:34:07+00:00

Are you honestly making the argument that the fact that a poem that I quoted (a poem for children no less) can be read as implying that a thesaurus only contains adjectives is proof that I don't understand "what parts of speech are"?

I didn't write the damn poem.

This is supposed to be a debate sub. If you're not interested in an honest discussion just keep out of it.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T22:26:22+00:00

Are you unaware of the meaning of the word "except"?

When I talk about my experience I am talking about my normal day to day interactions with the world. I am not an academic and made no claims to having any authority on the subject. I qualified that I am talking from my experience.

How is it possible for people with zero or very little cognitive ability to "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"?

Why would it not be possible? We absorb this information passively, it's not like you need to understand the full cultural context of womanhood to know that you relate to this idea that you have been around since birth.

The word woman has a meaning: adult human female.

A meaning that I have been very explicit that I am not talking about. If you interpret any statement that I have made about the word "woman" to be using it to refer to sex you are misunderstanding my intent.

Like most trans people I believe in self identification when it comes to gender and as such would never tell anyone that they can't use a particular word to describe their gender identity. That said, the word "woman" is culturally linked to these sexist and regressive ideas that you are talking about and the fact that you and I wish that this was not the case does not make it not so.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T21:25:44+00:00

I do.

ETA:

For fun, and because I realised I remembered it, here's a poem about adjectives that was on the wall of my secondary school English classroom:

Do you need added colour?

Reflective shine or bounce?

Lively lustrous body,

For your limp and lifeless nouns?

Just open your thesaurus,

Each fun packed entry gives,

A sparkling, bright selection,

Of farm-fresh adjectives!

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T21:03:00+00:00

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It just seems to be a very dishonest reading of my comment.

Firstly, I said that the meaning of the word "woman" was not relevant to this post, not that the meanings of words are in general not relevant. That's a statement that I stand by.

I don't think you understand what parts of speech are, their function and how they work together in sentences/phrases.

I certainly get the impression that we're coming at this from different angles but this doesn't give me much of an idea of what those might be.

In that sentence you used "trans" as a modifier of women - twice.

My usage of the word "trans" in that sentence didn't modify the word "woman" at all. That was my point. It added additional information, but the information provided by the word "woman" was unchanged.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T20:30:27+00:00

So now sex is dependent on, or synonymous with, social class?

Not at all. I wasn't talking about sex except to mention that there is a cultural association between womanhood (by the definition that I gave) and the female sex. They are neither dependent on nor synonymous with each other.

What word would you use for those of us who are adult humans of the female sex but who do "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"?

Those would be men or nonbinary people, depending on how they identify. It seems like you are conceptualising gender identity in a different way to me however if you think that the majority of female people feel this way. In my experience it is a tiny minority.

Your definition is not just exclusionary, it's incredibly ableist. Because it automatically leaves out all the world's adult human females who for various reasons - very low IQ, brain injuries, dementia - are incapable of the kinds of cognition required to "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex" - whatever the hell that bunch of misogynistic malarkey is supposed to mean

Most people have an idea of their gender identity by the age of 2, it's not something that requires some special level of cognitive ability. That said, why do you think it would be a bad thing for people to be "left out" in this regard? There's nothing wrong with not being a woman.

FYI: sex and being female aren't specific to humans

Do you think I'm like 5 years old? I know what sex is.

As to your last point. Yes, culture varies by time and location. As does what it means to be a woman.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T18:17:21+00:00

I'm happy to explain how I personally use the word "woman", but I don't see how it's relevant to this thread. I'll put an explanation at the end of the comment but I'd rather not change the subject.

What does the adjective "trans" means when describing a "woman"?

The same thing that it means when describing a "teacher" or a "capricorn". My understanding is that a person is trans if they identify with a different gender to the one that was assigned to them at birth based on their observed sex. The fact that someone is trans tells you nothing as to what their gender is.

Edit: missed that last bit. I do not want you to believe that a tran woman is a type of woman. A trans person is a type of person. Whether they are a woman or not is a separate, independent fact.

~~~~

Anyway. The word "woman" has multiple different meanings in common use, but the one that I use most commonly and that I believe best explains the most common usages that I hear from others refers to a social class. In particular I think it's a fair interpretation to say that a woman is a person who identifies with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex.

rubberdubberd00 · 2022-06-28T16:08:08+00:00

What "woman" means isn't actually relevant to this post at all. Hence my examples of how you could replace it with other words and the functionality of the word "trans" would be the same.

rubberdubberd00