ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-11T13:54:20+00:00

well you've never had to feel the disgusting sensation of having that part stuck on you, so what gives you the right to tell me I should have to be subjected to it for the rest of my life?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-10T09:15:15+00:00

Like, you're an adult male. Do you think taking elevated estrogen for 6 monts will make you similar to me, who has been a female for my entire life? Do you think it will make your presence acceptable around female toddlers and children in our spaces?

No, not at all. But it does establish that someone is genuinely a trans male and not just a non-trans male pretending to be trans to peep on women on whatever, since people of the latter category are unlikely to go through such convoluted measures as permanently changing their own body. And wasn't that supposed to be your big complaint about "self-ID"?

For the record, I'm not saying I support this policy. I'm saying that, if you don't support this policy, it pretty clearly proves that your issue is with any male using the women's bathroom, not just with potential non-trans males using self-ID to pretend to be trans and sneak in. In which case, I don't understand why you're pretending to be concerned about this when you very clearly don't care whether the self-ID'd trans males are trans or not.

I'm actually very curious: as an adult male who hates his genitals, do you want to access female spaces?

Oh heavens no, I've been on hrt for over 2 years and I've never used the women's bathroom or locker room or anything despite the fact that there's no law in the US stopping me. I identify as male, go by my male name, wear men's clothes, and do my best to present to the rest of the world as a normal man. I just want to be allowed to keep taking hormones because I like the emotional effects of testosterone removal, and some day remove my genitals, and maybe get face surgery to remove some of my more dysphoria-inducing features like my brow ridge so I can stop feeling so anxious all the time.

I don't want you to let men into the women's bathroom, that's a debate for you and the QTs to hammer out between each other, but I think you ought to be honest about why you really dislike self-ID. The talking point has been a pet peeve of mine because I've seen it over and over and over from people whose worry isn't about non-trans males sneaking in, but about trans males coming in, and I just don't think it's honest to pretend that the former is what you're trying to stop when it's really the latter. If you believe in something, come out and say it, don't go coming up with excuses for it.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-09T04:25:32+00:00

Well you were the one calling trans men who weren't GNC enough "ROGD".

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-09T04:23:29+00:00

You're right that it doesn't change sex, but I thought your objection to "self-ID" was supposed to be that non-trans people would ID as trans, and 6 months is enough that nobody who likes the body they're born with is going to do it.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-08T12:34:29+00:00

Of course I'd want to be the opposite sex, I'm just self-aware enough to realize that I'm a man and always will be and will never be a woman or even be able to understand what being a woman would be like.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-08T08:23:17+00:00

I mean, that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? If you dismiss anyone who has dysphoria but isn't GNC as "ROGD" and not really trans, then yeah, you'll find that 100% of the people you consider to be transsexual are GNC. But at that point, you're twisting the data to fit into the categories you decided are "legitimate", not building your categories around the data.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-08T05:46:18+00:00

but until this past decade, nearly all trans people were extremely gender nonconforming in addition to showing signs of lifelong, severe sex and genital dysphoria.

What do those 2 things have to do with each other? If people can be gender conforming without having severe sex dysphoria, why can't they do the reverse?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-08T05:43:38+00:00

If I can be feminine and be a man, why can't someone AFAB do the same thing?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T22:04:25+00:00

I thought you GC types were the ones saying that transes just want to transition every gender nonconforming kid based on stereotypes.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T09:23:57+00:00

Well there's an easy solution to your concern, which is changing self-ID to require 6 months on estrogen. That filters out all the randoms who just want to enter women's bathrooms for peeping reasons, and ensures it will only be gender dysphoric men.

So, if the proposal is changed to that, your purported concern is resolved. Is that satisfactory?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T09:21:21+00:00

As far as I'm concerned, having to have a penis is the "mutilation" at play here. If someone surgically attached a penis to you that you didn't want, you'd feel mutilated, right? You wouldn't just tell yourself "body positivity" and try to keep it and get used to it. I can assure you that the fact that I was born with one makes it no less distressing for me.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T09:19:30+00:00

"Living as a woman" is pretty vague, since men & women can do all the same things

What they mean is calling yourself a woman and trying to pretend to be one in public.

The only cure to dysphoria is desistance. It'd probably be difficult for anyone to get therapy that doesn't encourage transition nowadays though.

I, uh... that's called "repression" and it doesn't work. Lots of us have tried it for years or even decades, and things didn't get better.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T09:16:41+00:00

Yeah, you're able to get an orchiectomy (testicle removal) without "real life experience", but getting GRS requires it.

or any sign of gender nonconformity

What does gender nonconformity have to do with it? I think judging people's eligibility for transition by how well they fit into gender roles is a bad idea and reinforces stereotypes.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T09:13:18+00:00

I mean honestly, there is no procedure to give someone "female parts", all they can do is cut a hole of varying depth. And honestly, I don't care what they replace it with. As long as the penis and testicles are gone and I can still go to the bathroom, I'll consider it a success. But I don't know of any hospitals that perform "just hack your genitals off when they don't present any kind of immediate medical danger" surgery, and I certainly doubt my insurance would cover it if they did. I want what's known as a zero-depth where they don't even bother making any kind of "hole", since it has a lower risk of complications and I don't think a surgical flesh wound would make me a "woman" anyways.

I don’t recommend any type of genital surgery to anyone because being sterile and having to take exogenous hormone for the rest of your life isn’t fun.

I've been on hrt for over 2 years now, and honestly, I like it a lot better. Testosterone just feels disgusting, and even if I'm still a man and always will be, never having to have it in my body again feels really nice.

I do feel like in the case of SRS or anything else, people should pay for it themselves. It’s not fair to others to ask them to support something like this when it isn’t medically necessarily from physical standpoint.

I don't really agree here. Medical insurance pays for anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications, even though there isn't any kind of physical health problem that needs to be treated. Transition care for trans patients leads to a marked decrease in rates of depression, so why shouldn't it be covered by medical insurance in the same way other depression treatments are?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T08:53:43+00:00

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you don't know for sure it would relieve the anxiety right?

I mean, it's disgusting. I've felt that way since puberty. It looks disgusting, it feels disgusting, I want it gone. I never want to use it for anything in my life because the very idea is horrifying. Imagine if you had a disgusting part like that stuck to your body, even if it was medically harmless, wouldn't you want it eliminated?

Body Dysmorphic Disorder is a disorder where people have a distorted image of their own bodies and see themselves as fatter, uglier, etc. than they really are. I have friends with BDD, and it's not the same as gender dysphoria. And I've been on estrogen for over 2 years, which I've been very happy with, so I do think I'm probably trans.

Another question, is anyone going to follow up on that and make sure you're living as a woman? Can you just... pretend that you getting lived experience as a female but actually live as a male? I know it's scummy to game the system like that, I'm just curious.

I've considered that, but I'm a pretty terrible liar, and I don't know that I could convince several psychologists.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-07T08:42:40+00:00

Do you think sexual orientation should be a criterion? If you're going with Blanchard's theory of AGP, then by definition every trans identifying male who's attracted to women would be diagnosed with AGP by any psychologist working with his definitions.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T19:17:45+00:00

Many of us don't mind if trans people use our services in good faith

I thought you agreed that you don't want transes using women's spaces.

Can you expand on your last point? Which trans people in men's bathroom?

My whole point was that that QT argument is also full of holes in the same way that this GC argument is, because it's asking the other side to prove something that will in no way change the asker's opinion.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T19:16:08+00:00

Where in here did I say anything about "obligation"?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T10:14:46+00:00

I don't want to be in your political parties I just want to cut my disgusting dick off

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T09:22:54+00:00

Nobody is forcing them to violate women' s rights. They decide to do it. Nobody is forcing them to change their sex markers on their IDs, nobody is forcing them to use women' s sex-segregated spaces, nobody is forcing them to join women' s sport leagues, nobody is forcing them to steal women' s position in politics, organizations and schools. They want to do it, they feel entitled to do it, and at this point I think they also enjoy doing it.

It's literally a requirement to get your genitals removed.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T06:20:31+00:00

which comment are you trying to reply to?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:36:03+00:00

So would you be amenable to removing this requirement?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:35:33+00:00

They are forced to if they want to get the surgery, yes. It's a standard requirement that patients must "live as their preferred gender" (i.e. pretend to be women) for a year before getting genital removal.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:34:07+00:00

Because they are men using women’s spaces. You not wanting to do that does not stop these men.

I don't see how making me have a penis is going to stop them either.

Removing barriers and making it easier for these harmful men to get their junk rearranged and become women in the eyes of the law meaning women lose the ability to remove the dickless men.

There isn't any law requiring men to get their genitals removed before going into the women's bathroom. They can do it even without surgery. I understand your concerns but I don't see how this does anything to mitigate them.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:26:49+00:00

I will say, since these surgeries are available, the only people who should be considered for them should be people who can acknowledge that they aren’t women and are men.

The problem is, right now, it's the reverse. Men are required to call themselves women in order to get these surgeries, and to have experience "living as women" (i.e. impersonating women and invading female spaces).

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:18:28+00:00

How is it against your own interests? You never explained how men who cut off their penises are more dangerous to women than men who do not.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:11:49+00:00

Men who have the surgery harm women. Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats. Men who have the surgery do not become any less male and do not become magically harmless to females. Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women. It’s removing our right to have those spaces and it’s taking away safety from women.

All of this applies equally to men who don't have this surgery, so I don't think the surgery is what's causing the problem here.

I suggest finding some basic gc and radfem points and reading them to understand.

I have probably spent several hundred hours of my life reading things written by radical feminists on here, on twitter, and on reddit before GC was banned.

What would you like women to do about barriers made by men for men?

Not deliberately try to keep those barriers in place. For example, in the UK, people who can't get hormone therapy through the NHS with its numerous restrictions and 4 years queue time are ordering it from the EU, and there's been efforts recently by radfems to criminalize that. Could you please not do that? I'm not invading your spaces or anything, can't you stay out of my life as long as I stay out of yours?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T05:04:26+00:00

I think it's pointless to ask trans people to prove to you that self-ID'd people are really trans when you don't care whether they're trans in the first place. Even if they were able to prove this to your satisfaction, it wouldn't change your opinion by one inch, so why are you asking them to do it?

For the record, I think the same thing about transes who use the "we aren't safe in the men's bathroom" argument. Like, come on, even if you were safe, you still wouldn't want to use it. In both cases, I think it leads to the sides talking past each other and wasting time by dodging the actual points of disagreement.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T04:43:31+00:00

It takes tens of thousands of years for evolutionary change to occur. It doesn't affect organisms on an individual level.

I don't see how this is relevant.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T04:38:46+00:00

Right, a tiny handful of men who are not a priority to feminists, and who benefit far more than any woman ever could from such a proposal, whilst also making access even easier for all the other men who think woman is a feeling to get surgery.

1: they would already have access to the surgery.

2: I don't get how men having this surgery would hurt women. How does me not having a penis harm you or any other woman?

Really men are the ones benefitting from this. women get nothing since men are in our spaces regardless of whether or not men have to perform femininity for surgery.

Some men might not especially want to pretend to be women or use women's spaces, but do so because it's listed as a requirement to get the surgery. If this change occurred, those men wouldn't do that anymore. I have no interest in using women's spaces but really want this, and would be forced to identify as a woman in order to get it.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T04:22:57+00:00

Well if they insist that they're women and use women's spaces, then the barrier of "has to live as a woman" doesn't matter to them, since they're already doing it.

This change would only matter to men like me who don't want to go out in public calling themselves women or using women's spaces.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T04:11:41+00:00

fixed, sorry.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T04:05:17+00:00

How does it make accessing women's space easier? Pretending to be a woman is a requirement for the surgery, not vice versa.

It's creating a system where the medical establishment is actively encouraging men to enter women's spaces. I don't understand who you think this benefits.

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T03:53:12+00:00

The theory is pretty simple: males with gender dysphoria will pursue treatment to alleviate their suffering. Removing this barrier will allow them to do that without having to intrude into your lives and spaces or appropriate your identities. Isn't that an improvement?

ntr4ctr · 2021-02-04T03:33:57+00:00

Honestly, these kinds of arguments are tiring. We both know you don't care if they're actually trans or not, you don't want them in your bathroom either way. So why do we have to keep playing this game where you pretend that you're concerned about non-trans males in your bathrooms when the reality is that you don't want males in your bathroom whether they're trans or not?

For example, if the requirements were changed to "6 months on estrogen", it would pretty clearly filter out anyone who didn't want estrogen for its own sake, since normal men aren't going to chemically castrate themselves just so they can ogle women. But I have yet to meet any gender critical person on here who would support something like that. So why are we having this debate over how to tell who is or isn't trans when that's not the issue here?

ntr4ctr