All: Do you know trans people in real life? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, several. Of both sexes and various proclivities (HSTS, AGP, and soooo many transmen)

I don't want to go into detail for fear of doxxing but knowing trans people in real life both as friends and acquaintances outside of the internet (and having discussions and debates with some of them) really cemented my gender critical views on various fronts.

It also made me more compassionate in some cases, but not at the cost of logic, truth, and my passion for female human rights.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you're not female nothing you do will make me say you're a woman. Transwoman at best.

Also, "passing" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Female women have the right to sex-segregated spaces, and when males infringe on this they are forcing women to give up their privacy.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who is hurt by you pretending to be a woman? Everyone who is forced to play along or face backlash, everyone who has to ignore their instincts for social cohesion, everyone who has to give up their privacy to accommodate you, everyone who has to ignore reality for your benefit.

Your identity does not exist separate from society, and by claiming to be a woman, you negatively impact women and their female-specific rights and issues. Frankly, it's insulting to many of us who are actually female and socialized as girls in a sexist society our entire lives.

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would leave and come back once the transwoman has left.

If that's not an option and the transwoman isn't acting obnoxiously, I would avoid all eye contact, do my business as quickly as possible, and leave. I would, however, be very stressed.

Though, at a bar once I saw a man in the women's washroom and had enough liquid confidence to inform him he was in the wrong place. He was apologetic and hadn't noticed in his drunkenness. I would be afraid to say this to a transwoman for fear of backlash, which is why I would leave or ignore.

Unfortunately it seems a transwoman's comfort in an intimate setting trumps that of women as a whole.

To what extent does the activism of AGP transsexuals shape transsexual politics? by nausicaa in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This question is hard to answer because answers will be based on anecdotal evidence, observation, and extrapolation.

My view is that in current times there are FAR more AGP than HSTS, as perverted males are more common than gay males. This results in a lot of loud entitlement and publicly perverse behavior, which gives all trans people a bad name while paradoxically being what brought trans issues to the forefront of LGBT activism in the past 10 years.

I don't think HSTS transsexuals are the main subgroup of trans people fighting to abolish women's sex-based rights, who sexualize "female identity", and who pretend they can literally 100% become female, menstruation and all (all of which are part of my biggest gripes with the trans community and trans policies). So I think it's undeniable that AGPs are the loudest trans activist group (aside from woke handmaidens), and the ones responsible for much of trans policy and rhetoric.

AGP and HSTS alike will benefit from some aspects of AGP activism, such as accepting womanhood as a social rather than biological class, but in other ways HSTS suffer the damage that AGP rhetoric brings, being seen as selfish predators by many.

Interesting question, and I'd like to hear what actual AGP and HSTS trans people have to say on the subject.

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I agree and your response mirrors all the GC responses. Like I mentioned elsewhere, I really should have asked QT directly... very few replies from them if any...

Allowing QT to use woman and man as gender words rather than sex words was the beginning of the end for sexed language. Now I see them even claiming male and female are gender words. It's never enough, and it will not do us any good to compromise/capitulate.

Thanks for your response!

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's been my experience as well. Even the few who do admit it downplay the reality of the immutability of sex.

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good point, it's true that I haven't seen many QT open to any form of compromise on their end :(

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, the compromise always has and continues to fall more and more on women (female women lol)

I thought this language would be a bigger compromise for QT as they would need to state sex, but I see now that it's not going to be possible to create new terms to fix this divide in communication or change the way these opposing groups consider things.

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes unfortunately I think you're especially on the mark with point 3 :(

And I personally agree about gender ideology, but I was thinking for those who believe it strongly, at least these terms would make them acknowledge and state sex-based reality alongside gender identity. But it is all word games and somehow I doubt they want to state the sex-based side of things, similar to how GC don't want to give credence to genderism.

Though I haven't received any replies from QT yet so I'm just speculating.

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good point, it is giving in to the word games and places the burden on the majority rather than the vocal minority.

I'm just tired of being shut down when pointing out that transwomen are male and all that implies haha so if the language states it, maybe that would make QT more open to discussing sex-based ideas as separate from their conceptions of gender-based ideas.

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Redundant and cumbersome, yes, though I'd argue no moreso than cis and trans.

Oxymorons, I agree as I don't personally think gender exists beyond people's biases, but I thought maybe it would make it clearer when discussing, say, transwomen in women's sports. But I guess in the end it is just word play lol

Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi, as a GC myself I agree with everything you and the other GC have written, as never before in history has there been such an issue with saying the words "woman" and "man" and understanding which people are being referred to.

However, though a small part of the population, the QT vernacular is becoming more and more pervasive. People get shut down for calling female humans "women", as you're likely aware. I personally would prefer if the small percentage would use reality-based language, however in current practice that seems unlikely. In that light I was trying to consider new terminology to encompass both sides, as trans and cis really don't do it for me and many GC.

I don't believe in gender, but for the people who do, I was thinking maybe these terms could at least keep biology and sex as a main pillar. Maybe I should have asked QT in particular, as they are the driving force of gender-based language.

Thank you for your replies :)

what is "social dysphoria"? by ywnbawfan2 in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC here, from what I understand it is indeed tied with discomfort of the gender norms associated with one's sex as well as coveting the gender norms of the opposite sex. But, I think it's more about how other people perceive you and act towards you on the daily, compared to physical dysphoria where the discomfort is with one's own body. (Though even then I would venture to say many feel physical dysphoria because of how their sex's image is portrayed in the world, we are social beings after all...)

But, I'm sure someone who is QT would have a more detailed take on this question.

Both: What do you think about the transgender incident at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

postmodernism was a mistake smh

QT: What rights don’t trans people have? by wokuspokus in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She said it herself. What they call rights are really just "privileges", and they want these privileges at the expense of female women's and children's actual rights.

All: Do men and women need each other beyond purposes of reproduction? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think the same is true of men, that they don't need women beyond reproduction?

Then who would manage the household and provide non-reproductive sexual pleasure?

Sarcasm, but really studies show that single women are the happiest demographic, and single men are miserable. It's common knowledge in feminist dating circles that men rely on women not only for sex but to keep their lives together. This is of course intensified by childcare and "wifely duties", but is slowly changing as women gain independence from men and no longer need to live as slaves to them, at least in some countries, but not everywhere sadly.

In sum, in developed countries where women can support themselves financially, I think men need women more than women need men.

GC & QT: What are your views? by PeakingPeachEater in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So you call yourself a "TIRF (Trans Inclusive Radical Feminist)" but you don't consider biological sex a thing beyond that you call "Sex traits"? And you see societal categories of sex stereotypes as more primary than reproductive reality? Sorry but how is that radical feminist at all? What about your views align with radical feminism?

QT: questions about transphobia (But gc feel free to add questions) by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

the majority of children with dysphoria desist as they age, so no, I don't think this is the only or even the best option.

Sadly for many of these kids, they will have been subjected to unethical experimental procedures that result in stunted development, sterilization and for many young females even mutilation of healthy breast tissue.

also, again, even males who went on puberty blockers shouldn't participate in female sports.

QT: questions about transphobia (But gc feel free to add questions) by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Sports is a harder bear to tackle, but this is why we need pre-puberty transition :)

disgusting, smiley face doesn't soften the blow of child abuse

ETA: nor does the smiley it make it okay to reduce females in women's sports

GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly I think adults can choose to pursue these options if they please and if they pay out of pocket. That said, I don't think SRS or HRT means they can access spaces made for opposite sex, and I especially don't see these as viable solutions for minors.

I wish more research was done, but you must be aware of how limited gender critical views are in academia? Still we can draw parallels and conclusions, and further there are studies showing similarities of transgenders with their statistics of their natural sex, as well as detransitioner anecdotes. I don't see why gender dysphoria would be all that different than dysmorphia or any other similar disorder.

Why is sex seen as maleable but race and age isn't? These are basic demographics. It doesn't make sense to feed delusions. But again, if consenting adults wish to, it's their bodies and their money. It just seems cosmetic.

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hm why should any male NEED to access female spaces though? I think both groups would benefit from third spaces.

Is it disrespectful to acknowledge the different needs of both groups? This reminds me of being called a bigot for realizing biological differences do matter. What other solutions have you determined other than separation?

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

LMAO omg the amount of times I've encountered this very argument unironically... "6 months on estrogen makes a male a valid female" PLEASE

Btw I always love reading your comments, thank you for sharing :)

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Right??

But didn't you know it's offensive to male feelings and handmaiden woke sensibilities to acknowledge sex based rights? :/

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok, so you don't want me as a member because I'm contrary to your opinion, or what?

I always advocate for third spaces for transgendered people. That is the best solution to keeping female spaces safe.

GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If only academia was open to researching any topic related to trans and gender ideologies without being shut down for being bigoted terfs.

The majority of minors who have dysphoria outgrow it. Those who don't would likely benefit from cognitive behavioural therapy, radical acceptance of their bodies, and abolishment of ideologies correlating sex stereotypes and/or physical discomfort with 'gender'.

We don't cut peoples limbs off when they think they believe they should be amputees. We dont allow anorexics to starve themselves to death because they think theyre fat. Why should making a mockery of physical sex be the solution to people who feel disconnected with their biological reality?

Humans are resilient. Mental issues, particularly about taboo gender ideology, is under-researched. That doesnt mean affirmative therapy is the best option.

GC: If a male were to play as a "female" character is the "female" character actually male, and vice versa? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So much effort for such low effort content :/

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, is refusing all males in female spaces not a valid approach to mitigating predators in said spaces? Okay then.

I've also ventured to ask how this can be, but no one has been able to argue a good point differentiating between 'good faith' trans and 'bad faith' trans. Has your group had any progress on the topic?

Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Truscum are still very sexist. They may be better than transtrenders and predators on the surface, but their cause is still insidious.

The solution is not to allow any males into female spaces, regardless of their internal identity or the superficial surgeries and treatments they've had.

GC: If a male were to play as a "female" character is the "female" character actually male, and vice versa? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This poster never engages with their actual views, only absurd hypotheticals. Honestly surprised they are allowed to continue to waste time with bullshit like this.

GC: If a male were to play as a "female" character is the "female" character actually male, and vice versa? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

love how this poster never addresses direct questions.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ROGD isnt a thing? So what about the countless accounts of it? Thanks again for not trying at all to reconcile any of your views with the potential detrimental effects on minors. The way you ignore these points always really proves your ideas /s, how you never want to acknowledge anything difficult really shows us that there's nothing to worry about in those topics /s.

Always a fun time chatting. Wish you had anything of substance to say, either as a point or in response. I'll keep dreaming.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Teenagers are going through intense physical and psychological growth. It is a time marked by becoming an individual, and is ripe with identity issues. It's common sense that teens go through 'phases' of identity, conforming to different subcultures and peer groups in an effort to both individualize themselves and become part of a group. This is very apparent when you look at how trans identity surges through friend groups like a social contagion, and by the massive uptick in ROGD in teenage girls, who as a rule tend to hate themselves and their bodies. Further, teenagers are also known not to have firm grasp of the long term consequences of their actions. What seems like a great idea at 15 is very apparently a horrible idea at 17, forget decades down the line. Teenagers are known to make bad decisions and to change their minds, but these decisions don't have to cost them for life.

Knowing this, doesn't it make sense not to allow minors to make permanent changes to their bodies, affecting lifelong health and fertility? Use your brain. You don't need a study to understand this. Teenagers are also minors, and as a society we must protect them.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

6 months on hormones doesn't make someone imperceptible from the opposite sex though?

Like, you're an adult male. Do you think taking elevated estrogen for 6 monts will make you similar to me, who has been a female for my entire life? Do you think it will make your presence acceptable around female toddlers and children in our spaces?

Self-id doesn't require hormones, but hormones doesn't validate self-id either. That's the real problem. Also how to prove this to keep female spaces safe?

I'm actually very curious: as an adult male who hates his genitals, do you want to access female spaces? Or do you just want to change your body but still acknowledge your male reality and keep female spaces for females?

Transssnoooooo by WarmPotato in memes

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meh I am also exasperated with excessive labelling, but some divisions do make sense imho. I get where you're coming from but some divisions do make sense if the groups are truly different and not based on arbitrary 'I'm special' categorizations.

ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone? by ntr4ctr in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol your natural body is not 'mutilation', how insulting to people who have actually been mutilated.

Just because you have a mental issue with your body, doesn't make your body the issue.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

6 months is an arbitrary threshold and does not change sex. Also, it's a very short period of time in the big picture. This is not an adequate solution.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol are you serious? I don't know where you live, but people walk on eggshells about trans issues. People are fired for believing in sex. Trans people are afforded special privileges. The power the word transphobia has in shutting things down looks like power, not prosecution of trans. "Generally allowed" please, homosexuals are more oppressed throughout the world than trans people are, or have you not considered how places like Iran prefer a person being trans than gay or GNC? OR how women's voices are silenced in the name of trans? Are you uninformed or just ignorant?

And actually I know there is research on this, and I have heard countless voices on the topic, so observationally yes most teens and children desist. You are aware that research into transition and detransition is extremely limited due to lobbying and calls of transphobia? Which again shows the power of these claims.

ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone? by ntr4ctr in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sigh, we've already debated effective therapies and the fact that dysphoria is often overcome without treatment, particularly in minors. We've already debated how just because a treatment for a condition (that is under-researched to begin with) is the standard, doesn't mean it's the best or only possible option. Also, we've compared this disorder to other similar disorders and seen a complete different approach. This method does not mitigate harm overall, unlike other possible therapies. So no, transition is not the only treatment, and can have serious adverse effects. It's dangerous to claim it's the only way to cope.

You don't want proof, as any proof we show you you ignore. You don't want to hear about other options, and you don't want to understand why treating transition as the cure-all of dysphoria can do more harm than good for many. Again, glad it helped you, even though you still seem very unhappy as a person and with your trans status. But there are always other ways, even if you don't want to see them.

Transssnoooooo by WarmPotato in memes

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hm I can see why they divide between LGB since they have different needs and experiences, for example a gay person does not enter straight relationships like bi people do, and lesbians and gay men have very different cultures. To me, the T is unrelated to sexual orientation, since it's about identity, and should be its own separate movement.

Also, this meme is clearly about T not LGB, which is why I said 'the issue here' lol

ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone? by ntr4ctr in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So many people are repulsed with their bodies, yet find ways to grow and accept them.

A non-gender-affirming therapist would be a great help in these cases, for exposure therapy and mentality.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your individual experience is just that, individual. Other non-trans people have also experienced these struggles.

I'm talking teenagers, who are also minors.

Transssnoooooo by WarmPotato in memes

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

? they're clearly different

Transssnoooooo by WarmPotato in memes

[–]comradeconradical 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The issue here is the T not the LGB

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like I said earlier and as studies have shown, the vast majority of youth who have dysphoria outgrow it. So no, transition would not be ideal, even for those with dysphoria. Also that truth directly undermines your view that dysphoria is impossible to overcome and live with. People have survived much worse. There are other ways of treatment as well, but no one is allowing research to be done as it questions trans ideology, which we all know only terfs do /s.

Society doesn't hate you. In most cases, I think society doesn't give a damn about any of us. Sounds like you have a victim-complex, and claiming transition is the only treatment is both false and pernicious.

ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone? by ntr4ctr in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd advocate for radical acceptance, body positivity, and non-gender based therapy over genital mutilation.

GC: Evolution comes with change, biology is not infallible and immutable and can change, therefore sex is not immutable and can change? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do your questions actually tie in to the topic of this sub, or are you just interested in evolutionary biology across different species?

I fail to see the relevance of your questions in the debate of GC and QT ideologies. Could you maybe clarify your views and how your multitude of hypotheticals has any bearing on this subject?

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course I'd prefer no transwomen in spaces made for my sex, but I am willing to compromise. That's why I made this question. I know trans in cross-sex spaces will and has happened, so how can we protect ourselves against those who do this out of bad faith? My ideal solution would be a third space, but failing that, how can we ensure women's safety and ability to speak up about these issues under self-id?

I still don't understand what you mean with your example. The point is to try and fill these holes. If you don't want your opinion changed, as you seem to be projecting, why are you engaging? If you think there are no answers, what's the point of asking any questions on this sub? Accordingly, could you possibly address my questions and realistic concerns instead of wasting time saying there's no point?

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"this never happens" is your entire argument, for both uninformed surgeries and the transing of minors, and yet we can easily find countless accounts that these things do indeed happen.

I'm glad you were fully informed, and I'm glad transition worked for you. I hope you find it in yourself to feel compassion for those who are not so fortunate, and that you can consider how transition is likely not the best route for the majority.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's the thing: for many, particularly children, this 'care' is NOT necessary.

We shall have to agree to disagree on the corruption of the industry.

ETA: Just because doctors have made holes out of penises does not mean they have successfully created a vagina on a male, which is why I say it's experimental. So many will claim there is no discernable difference, but that is extremely misleading and false. Sex change is not possible, and surgeries and measures to attempt to do so are experimental. Also, again you ignore anything I say that impacts women and children detrimentally, concerning long term effects and unrealistic expectations.

ETA: Love how you blame Keira for a mistake she made as a teenager that will now have life long consequences, instead of seeing how the industry enabled and encouraged this mistake, and that there iwll be countless more in her shoes if we continue endorsing the unquestioned transition of minors.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How dismissive of Keira Bell and others who have suffered due to the very real impact of poorly implemented affirmative gender policy, as well as the lifelong consequences of being allowed to alter your body in your youth. "Professional transphobe" for being strong enough to bring the medical malpractice and faulty policies to light? Disgusting of you to say, but I know you are for transing kids, so....

Sure, surgeries have been around, but they are still experimental. Only recently have they become more normalized, but we still don't know long term effects, particularly of artificial cross hormone use. Hormones are meant to cycle, not be kept at levels the body doesn't naturally sustain, especially for cross-sex hormones. Women are getting cancers and other illnesses in connection to artificially elevated T, and I remember seeing emerging long term effects of males on E too. But do you really care about these consequences, or do you just want unmitigated access no matter the impact?

You also have to remember it's not one person getting hormones at that price, it's more and more people who may or may not have a real disorder because, as stated about Keira Bell, the industry is designed to push people through quickly and make money. This money aggregates from every individual to create a very profitable industry. It's not conspiracy, it's economics.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The issue of self-id is prevalent in my community because we do care. Many of us don't mind if trans people use our services in good faith, but when bad faith self-id trans people are around, we cannot act or defend ourselves without being labelled bigots or silenced. This is becoming a hot topic in my country, so why can't I ask about the nuances of it? Especially if it has the potential to impact me? Telling me I don't care either way is just false and patronizing. Maybe you're saying all this because you don't have a clear answer to the issue and would rather tell me I'm just close-minded instead?

Can you expand on your last point? Which trans people in men's bathroom? Transwomen? Why don't they want to use it? Because they prefer to make women uncomfortable than to get weird looks from men? I'd hate to change my tampon in the bathroom or change clothes in a locker room next to a male person no matter how they modify their bodies or dress or identify or feel internally. Like I've said before, I'm all for third spaces. Isn't that solution facing the disagreement head on and finding a compromise?

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, sadly further research into treatment hasn't been done because there is so much money to be made by making medical patients for life out of healthy bodies.

Lobotomy was considered the right treatment for many afflictions, we know better now. We don't treat dysmorphics by cutting off their limbs, or depressed people by endorsing suicide. Listen to detransitioners to see how transition can do more harm than good. And that's not even to touch on the experimental nature of transition and the ill-understood long term effects.

The majority of people, especially young people, get over dysphoria with time.

GC: Is anything transphobia? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Would you be able to expand on trans people who don't have some belief in gender? I would say the majority of trans people believe in gender ideology. And those who don't, lets say who are gender critical and who think they have dysphoria not mismatched brain body sex, still have a lifestyle where they change their gender presentation to be treated as the opposite sex. That to me is complicit in gender ideology rather than critical. I don't really understand how someone could be trans and not believe in gender in some way, and I don't see how they don't go together, because transition doesn't change sex, it changes outward appearance and how people behave based on gender norms. Even dysphorics who transition tend to do so socially as well, not just physically. I guess I see it as playing inside the gender system instead of subverting it. I wouldn't want my kid to be raised by someone who might say the kid is trans if they are GNC or have body issues which all people have at some point or another.

To me, trans is a mental disorder with a component of delusion, either that sex is really changed, or that the body is wrong in some way. Am I anxious-phobic for thinking people with anxiety have an overactive stress response? You're right though, I'm talking on a macro scale. Sure, individual differences, some more delusional than others. I don't treat people badly for having mental afflictions, but that doesn't mean I can't assess the situation and conclude their state of mind based on behavior and actions.

Agreed with your last point, but precisely because women are taught to be vigilant about males, it's distressing to see males able to access our spaces based on self-id and wearing sexist attire. This adds a level of suspicion, depending on the situation. But yes in general I agree, I think anyone vigilant about transwomen comes from a place of vigilance towards all males, not just transwomen.

You know, you're absolutely correct that the disconnect here may be I'm talking group level and you're talking individual level. I do believe transphobia exists, but I also believe most of what people call transphobic is actually not, such as gender critical views, homosexuality based on sex not gender, vigilance for physical safety, etc. I know several trans friends irl and they are lovely individuals. I don't agree on many of their views, as they don't agree with mine. Yet we can still get along, because we don't let our differences occlude other things like personality and shared interests. That being said, I'm primarily concerned with the impact of trans ideology on the big picture of female, gay, and child rights, law, medicine, education, etc.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

playing this game where you pretend that you're concerned about non-trans males in your bathrooms when the reality is that you don't want males in your bathroom whether they're trans or not?

Never said differently, no game or secret, yes I absolutely want spaces for females separate from males. Estrogen after 6 months doesn't make a male female, not even SRS does. But the question is not only about sex-specific spaces, it's about individual instances of if trans is a real condition or just a self-proclaimed identity, and how to approach the issues that arise from these assumptions.

It very much is an issue, or are you just willfully ignoring the problems that could arise from self-id?

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes im not sure what the point here is or what masks is trying to prove... despite multiple comments on it

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A structural basis of dysphoria really just solidifies it as a mental illness, as there are similar structural differences in different mental disorders like depression and schizophrenia. It means nothing for gender.

GC: Is anything transphobia? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, I appreciate your views and thoughts as well.

It's also refreshing to hear "you can not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic" because this is a rare sentiment. But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out? My best friend is schizophrenic. I've seen him in the depths of delusion, and it's very similar to how some trans people talk about gender. As such, I don't agree that pointing out delusional thoughts is discriminatory. Thinking you can change your sex by changing your appearance? Very sexist, and very delusional. I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male. Ok so finally I guess I only agree with the 'treating them badly' part then, which again goes back to basic human rights. No one owes anyone trust or validation.

I see trans people as any other person. Deserving of basic rights, but not deserving of special treatment for their internal identity, especially if this identity infringes on the rights that have been hard-won historically by my sex class.

GC: Is anything transphobia? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, like other users in this thread, I don't think bullying or discrimination is okay. Basic human rights for all. I do resent if I'm forced to play along with their ideology and give up my actual rights for their ideals. But, this disbelief in their identity is not discrimination, just like an atheist who doesn't believe in religion doesn't necessarily discriminate against religious people.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to keep transwomen and women separate, as we are different groups, and I don't think it's discrimination to do this. Some services in life are exclusive to certain groups with certain needs, and it's not discrimination to exclude those the services aren't meant for. Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity? It comes across to me that a lot of trans people talk about discrimination in the sense of people not believing their identities or not dating them, rather than not being afforded basic rights. The ability to adopt a child I would say is also not really a basic right, because no one is entitled to someone else's child, plus it ties in to wider debates of mental illness and informed consent. Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Tangentially, it's a bit funny to me because as a woman I am often discriminated against, but if I call out misogyny I'm dogpiled with 'not all men' etc. But if a trans person calls out transphobia, even for statements like 'sex is real', they get support and often the other person is cancelled. People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed? Strange world.

GC: Is anything transphobia? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

God is unproveable, just like gender is. Religion, like gender, is an identity, and everyone is free to have one, but nobody has to believe in it. If I as GC meet a medically transitioned transwoman, that person's gender is just their personal identity. Their surgeries don't make me believe in their identity over reality. To me they are a male who has modified their body. Disbelief in the ideology doesn't mean disbelief in those that believe the ideology lol. It's a pretty clear analogy imo..

GC: Is anything transphobia? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure they exist, but medical transition still doesn't change sex.

Non-believer in gender is how I understood it.

QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really miss the reddit sub for this group. There was always lively and civil discussion from both ends.

The problem is it was only GC, not QT, that was purged from reddit. Most QT do not want to question or defend their ideology, and those that do venture to do so cannot easily find this page anymore.

That, and of course I think their views don't have much of a leg to stand on upon further scrutiny.

GC: Why aren't trans men allowed to have their own spaces? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all women experience periods or life the same way either, because we are all complex human beings beyond sex and self-proclaimed identity. That goes for females of all ages, ethnicities, abilities, gender identities, medical conditions, mentalities, etc. We are all different in some way yet all human and, on this topic, all female. It's dishonest to say the issue isn't a female one, or that it's not a female issue because it's a self identified transman or a tomboy experiencing it.

Instead of getting angry and gate-keeping breast objectification and oppression, I think it's more constructive to tackle the bigger societal issue anyway and work together, to see multiple sides of the same topic from those the topic effects. Women are not talking OVER transmen, they are trying to talk WITH them in solidarity of shared issues, about oppression that ultimately affects us all. Their separatist mentality of "us transmen vs those interfering cis women" helps no one when talking about shared female issues, issues that have been long repressed in history, that we as a class can now finally talk more openly about.

The problems here are the false dichotomy between transmen and women concerning female oppression, as well as the false equivalence of women and transwomen as 'conversation oppressors', as statistics of males talking over females is a measured, significant, systematic issue.

GC: Why aren't trans men allowed to have their own spaces? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transmen are female, which is why when they talk about something related to female biology, obviously females will relate.

In fact, the fact they complain just shows more of how desperate they are to create distance between themselves and women, which is ill founded as again, they are female just as women are, and all females have their breasts objectified.

I don't understand your transwoman comparison. You post is also cut off, so you might wanna edit it...

GC: This article explains well that even if there are only two sexes, and not many sexes, or a continuum of sexes, "trans men are men, and trans women are women", do you have any arguments against the things said in this article? What are your arguments? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good points, I try not to use gender at all because of how averse I am to gender ideology and to keep the meaning clear, but you're right to say the meaning here is obvious and we should reclaim the language they seek to redefine.

"cross-gender self-identification" now that is truthful language, and circumvents the 'sacred' word 'identity' lol

GC: This article explains well that even if there are only two sexes, and not many sexes, or a continuum of sexes, "trans men are men, and trans women are women", do you have any arguments against the things said in this article? What are your arguments? by Not_a_celebrity in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex has impact beyond reproduction. It doesn't take a big imagination to see that. For example, health. Certain conditions are more common in, or exclusive to, one sex or the other. Symptomology and severity of illness can differ.

I wonder, why are QT so desperate to dismantle such a fundamental aspect of life?

This is a lazy post.

Both: Disclosure around adoption by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot to unpack in your 'transphobia' response. Most trans people believe in a gender ideology by definition, if they believe changing how they look changes their 'gender', if they put any stock in gender identity at all, if they want the world to perceive them as the opposite sex based on gender expression. Those who acknowledge and disclose their actual sex are few, even here in your question you and your partner are considering to hide this truth. Also, you consider your being trans solely a physical condition, but I don't see how trans identity doesn't have a pervasive mental component, even in the case of HSTS. What leads you to change your body and appearance if not your mind? Finally, I didn't mean to imply "all trans are bad" lol and I hope you don't take it this way, it's just that being trans is essentially an exceptional aspect of a trans person's life that should be disclosed when relevant, as I believe is the case here.

Agreed about the strictness of adoption and the bars against people with mental illness. It must be frustrating, but it absolutely makes sense, considering a child's life is involved. It's interesting because of course people who have mental or physical illness are not barred from natural procreation. Adoption though is not the same as natural birth in that it belongs primarily in the legal and social world rather than the biological.

Open adoption is definitely more common now, and I think better for all the involved parties most of the time. That said, open adoption works best when everyone is open with each other.

Both: Disclosure around adoption by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The social worker doesn’t think I need to share details about why we can’t have children ourselves with the birth Mom.

Agreed, for medical issues that doesn't affect your lifestyle, unless it does like active cancer in which case yeah I think it should be disclosed. Infertility exists outside of ideology. People can be sterile, infertile, or unable to conceive for all sorts of reasons. These reasons are usually rooted in physical states, unlike transition which is both medical, mental, and ideological.

Should you tell a potential birth mother you are trans?

Yes. She should have all the knowledge available about the life of the adoptive parents to determine if it's a good fit, particularly if she will remain in contact with them. Like another person said, trans people often follow gender ideology which is just that, an ideology, that some may disagree with. Is it transphobic? I don't think so, though I see how it could be debatable, but disagreeing with an ideology doesn't automatically make you hateful or phobic of it. If it was, most people I know would be Trump-phobic lol, but that's not the wording we use for those critical of this political angle. And even then, if a super left wing mom was in a situation where she had to give her child up for adoption for whatever reason, is it so wrong that she doesn't want her kid placed in a super right wing family? Another user commented about religion which is an even better example. Another example would be adoptive parents who have mental illness, such as BPD or schizophrenia, etc. I think most people would agree that they'd want to know of the mental state and beliefs of the adoptive parents, because this will affect their child's upbringing in a way that the root of the adoptive parent's infertility typically won't, unless it's an ongoing physical illness like I mentioned above.

In my view, the trans identity is more than a physical medical state, it's a lifestyle and an ideology, and (again in my view) a mental ailment consisting of gender dysphoria and other comorbidities (you reject this anecdotally but the studies show high comorbidities of mental illness so I think many would consider it a valid concern). I think these are important aspects for parents looking to give their child for adoption to consider, especially if they want a relationship with the birth parents. Deception is never well received. It's a matter of informed consent.

Adoption however is a tricky topic especially because it occurs for a multitude of reasons. The way I interpreted your question and framed my response is from someone who is willingly giving up their kid because they have to, and who wants the best and most stable life for their kid possible. This is obviously not the case for any or even most adoptions, and in many cases the birth parents may not know about the adoptive family at all and vice versa. But, if there is open communication between the parties, I think this is a relevant detail. Further, adoption is in the child's best interests, and I think again informed consent is ultimately in the chil'sd and the involved families' best interests.

Some things don't need to be disclosed, some do. I'm of the opinion that this is a detail that should be disclosed.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If anything, I advocate for third spaces for trans people. I don't think we should compromise the safety of the majority of women and girls for the few. That said, if someone passes entirely and is in good faith, it's generally not as big an issue to use the opposite sex bathroom. But, my question is not about passing, but about the impact of self-id and these actions in bad faith. Maybe if you or any other QT could illuminate the difference we could approach the issues of sex-specific and gender-id-specific spaces more reasonably.

To address your tangentially related question, transmen may pass better than transwomen in general, but most of the transmen I've known have been visibly female in some way or another, even with a full beard and deep voice. Further, transmen do not pose the same threat to women that males do. From a radfem perspective, transmen are female, and thus entitled to female sex-based services and spaces. A beard doesn't make a human male, as there are females with beards either naturally or through external means.

Onto your next point, The males I've heard of using the women's bathroom who don't transition usually call themselves 'butch' women even though they, for all purposes, look like normal men. That being said, I'm sure there could be a bad faith situation where a male pretends to be a transman, but it seems much less likely to be successful than to just claim to be a transwoman. It comes back to my overarching question of determining Good Faith "True" Trans from Bad Faith "Fake" Trans, which is difficult to determine with self-id.

So by all means make a post about this, I've seen this debate before but it's always good to hear more perspectives. Still, I'd really love if you could answer any part of my original question on this thread.

GC: If only two "men", only two "women" or someone on their own can create an embryo/baby, then there is no difference between "man" and "woman", "egg" and "sperm", and they are man-made socially constructed categories that don't actually exist. If you disagree, please explain your reasons by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some thoughts in light of your post and this comment:

Obviously reproductive capacity and production of gametes is a major aspect of sex, but sex goes beyond reproduction as well. As many other GC, scientists, and doctors have said before, sex influences all levels of your biology, effecting every cell, effecting your physical and mental functioning. The way disease manifests differs from males to females. Different symptomologies, needs, treatment efficacities, etc. Even the ability of your cells to differentiate between male and female occurs in utero and is not a simple 'male/female' switch, but a complex biological cascade. And then, this development effects far more than just the gametes you produce.

So, even if gametes could be completely artificially lab-made and 'pregnancy' be conducted in tubes in institutions a la Brave New World, material sex based reality still has obvious and measurable impact on our lives.

I also think that artificially changing these cells is not a good argument for a male body producing female gametes because it's not the male body doing that, it's a transhumanist sci-fi idea that fails to take the intricacies of pregnancy and child-mother bonding into account among other factors. And, the male body could not magically support pregnancy either. Gametes are one aspect of sex, but a condition that destroys your ability to carry gametes doesn't change your sex. Not every female reproduces, this doesn't mean she isn't female.

It's strange that QT seeks to abolish such a basic principle of life, particularly with these hypothetical "thought experiment" questions, all the while advocating to enforce stereotypical social constructs of gender. Especially when there are so many concrete questions that could and should be addressed concerning these concepts. It's a bit baffling.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know, this is refreshing advice, much appreciated. I'll take you up on it. It's easy to get tunnel vision and forget the bigger picture of life and suffering. Also, I'm fairly active in GC circles but I also tend to soften my wording is debate in order not to alienate the other side- but truly why, when their views alienate me and my sex?

It must be horrible to feel so unhappy and disconnected from oneself, and it is horrible to recognize the sexist stereotypes and attitudes in society, but that doesn't mean our bodies are actually wrong or that society's expectations of sex roles and expression must be adhered to. You're right, the sexist tinge that accompanies it is extremely distasteful, and more the demands of many from this group are increasingly selfish and narcissistic.

The delusions of the involved individuals and the cult-behavior of the group are difficult to address and get through as outsiders because of how deeply entrenched they are, especially as the villainous GC, so it's more beneficial to challenge the views of the supporters who have not critically examined the ideology. That being said, I'm still hoping someone who is QT will approach the question of self-id and the 'no-true-scotsman' fallacy.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I agree, but in practice it is simply not cost efficient to build a separate prison for less than one percent of the population, which is why I also tend to fall back on a separate wing in the prison of their birth sex as a compromise. It's not a compromise that's well received though, because often they wish to completely co-opt women's spaces. Why? Validation? Exploitation? Whatever it is, it doesn't justify the adverse effects of housing natal males in women's prisons and on other institutions/services.

Again, it is a matter of objective, material, measurable reality versus subjective, internal, individual ideology. I don't see why the latter should ever prevail over the former, and I am still waiting for a QT to analyze how some people's individual gender ideologies are more or less valid than others and how they can tell the difference.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes no worries I didn't take it as contrary! You outlined these issues well and I appreciate the ideas I hadn't deeply considered before. Definitely a lot of nuance gets overlooked in these debates.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I also agree that sex is immutable. That gender identity has no actual bearing in reality, and that it actually becomes a performative obsession for many of those who follow this ideology. I personally don't believe in a "true trans" either, as dysphoria is also a mental condition that doesn't actually mean one's sex is wrong. As a GC feminist and someone educated in science and law, I have a firm view of gender identity as a mental issue or naivety exacerbated and encouraged by specific social spheres which is having adverse impact in many areas of life. I can feel compassion for the internal turmoil of dysphorics, but I don't believe that means the problem is with society at large, nor that it means we must redefine words like woman to be circular and stereotypically based rather than rooted in clear and measurable fact. What I don't understand, though, is self-id, and why it's so widely accepted with little to no push back despite the clear implications.

But the QT group often makes these arguments, about dysphoric trans and non-dysphoric trans, and about real trans people and fake trans people, which is why I wanted to hear how they reason the inconsistency.

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think in general we agree but you've made some amazing points here that I definitely overlooked. Particularly about vulnerabilities within the same-sex group, and how is a trans identity deserving of different treatment for this reason? I usually fall back on creating third spaces as it seems like the best way to ensure women's rights are upheld all the while catering to trans conceptions of safe spaces, but you've given me some things to look into.

Also, the idea of incarceration based on severity of offense is another good point. Where I live males have been imprisoned with females despite being convicted of sex crimes and then actually sexually assaulted the female inmates, so having them separate from females has been my biggest concern, but of course it does make more sense to imprison based on the concrete measures of sex, crime, and risk without feeding the idea of internal gender identity as holding weight in these circumstances. TRA usually argue that transwomen would be incredibly vulnerable in male prison, but that ties into your first point about in-group vulnerabilities, and of course ignores both female vulnerabilities and the pervasive dangers of self-id.

The issue keeps coming back to the fact that gender identity is not a tangible condition. It cannot be measured, so the conditions to join the group are largely arbitrary. This self-identification and the subsequent demand to receive special treatment and inclusion in groups not designed for them is unfortunately impacting medicine and law where I live, which is why I'm curious how we can allow the self-id of the few to eclipse the needs, rights, and vulnerabilities of the majority.

Thanks for your thoughts and the links!

QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification? by comradeconradical in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything you said here. I have indeed seen this phenomenon for prisons and women's shelters, as well as women's support groups, lesbian dating, bathrooms, etc.

The logical conclusion is, yes, keep these groups separate. I personally think even 'true' trans people should have their own spaces instead of those of their birth or desired sex, because I acknowledge that it wouldn't be safe to have them grouped with their birth sex either after surgery and such. But, that doesn't mean I think women's spaces should be compromised. For example, transwomen should have their own wing in a prison, not be grouped with female inmates. Women and transwomen have different life experiences and needs, but so too do men and transwomen. I don't think it's wrong to provide for female needs to the exclusion of transwomen who can't possibly have the same needs, and I don't think it's wrong to have trans spaces.

But, that being said, most TRA continue to exclaim both 'TWAW/TMAM' as well as claiming self-identification as the legitimate determinant of trans identity. But, if they want to make both these statements, and then denounce the 'bad apples' as being 'not trans', logical consistency is missing. As such, I want them to explain why they think self-identification is a proper method of identifying 'true trans people' and what it means when that fails.

Trans person throws a huge fit because a lesbian who doesn't want dick; another trans person accuses them of transphobia, assuming their huge fit was actually a parody intended to insult trans people. by reluctant_commenter in LGBDropTheT

[–]comradeconradical 16 insightful - 5 fun16 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

This shit literally writes itself lol

Now if only more people would care to notice instead of gloss over it...

UK High Court rules on puberty blockers for under-16s. VICTORY FOR CLAIMANTS! by anonymale in GenderCritical

[–]comradeconradical 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This sets an amazing precedent.

Strange how PinkNews is reporting that puberty blockers are OK for under 16 years old. The decision pretty clearly states that under 13 cannot consent, that 14-15 most likely cannot consent, and that 16-18 would need court approval for this experimental and largely undocumented medical treatment.

GC: What is the best or most important thing trans people or transsexuals can do to help you? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm curious, though- isn't being trans inherently being an 'other'? As in, rejecting your birth sex and attempting to assimilate with a sex that you aren't? Is it really so wrong to acknowledge the fact that your life and experiences are those of a trans person rather than a 'cis' person? And does it need to be a bad thing?

I think all GC would be happy if transwomen would admit they are transwomen, not women, and therefore there are many aspects of being female that do not and cannot apply to them.

GC (but anyone can comment): Why are women more supportive of trans rights than men? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol we know you hate males, like more than any feminist I've interacted with. It's pretty intense.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, the one from 2017 says its not recommended for infant consumption, and the one from 2018 says it's unknown if it has the same nutrients as female breast milk. And considering how transwomen are on a steady diet of artificial hormones, which would go into the milk if it's actually anything like real breastfeeding, then no one in their right mind would feed a baby with it.

Not sure where you're getting "quite the opposite", because the only positive discussed is for the transwomen who want "the full woman experience" which is cringey enough in itself and has nothing to do with infant care.

To reiterate my main argument here because we clearly won't agree on this subtopic: medical treatment does not change sex. Transwomen are not women nor are they men. They are male, and they are transwomen. They can never be female or know what that truly entails. There are measurable differences between the sexes and these are important to consider regarding health and law.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol when considering functionality, yes the purpose for its existence is absolutely relevant. I'm concerned with women's SEX based rights and oppression. Women and transwomen may be objectified for their breasts, but only women are discriminated against for breastfeeding.

Okay lol I looked into the anatomy of transwomen breasts but sure, I'm wrong and the doctors discussing the differences are wrong too /s

I wont event comment on 'unfortunate delays' because I remember debating you about transing kids and, as expected, we have vastly different views on what is acceptable.

Okay, glad we can finally agree on something: transwomen belong in a third category, NOT men and NOT women. Same for transmen. I never did call transwomen 'men', only 'male', because it is vital to at least acknowledge the reality of sex-based ailments and challenges.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no way they are "exactly the same" THAT is the lie. Again, breasts exist to deliver nutrients to babies after birth, and transwomen cannot do that. They have the appearance of breasts, yes, but even then male nipples are differently situated than female nipples. Also, males do not develop female-level mammary glands even after transition, yes even compared to small-breasted females. Also, what does 'mature' breast mean? If you're the same as a woman, why wouldn't they 'fully mature'? Maybe because they are lacking components to fully functionally develop? This is nitpicking, of course, because though they are not the same, appearance wise, yeah they're breasts (even then though they do tend to be shaped differently).

Anyway, it's gotten pretty out of hand. To bring it back to my main argument: medical treatment does not change sex, and developing secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex does not change sex. Sex exists and has measurable impact on our physiology, our susceptibility to diseases, and our experiences of socialization. You are a ~valid~ person, you are a transwoman, and you have certain experiences and medical needs tied to that that non-trans males don't have, but you aren't female and don't have exactly the same needs or risks that women have. Isn't that objective?

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Rich to have someone from a community that aims to change dictionary definitions quoting the dictionary lol

But I am obviously not referring to the 'aesthetic' branch of philosophy, I'm using it as one would its synonyms, such as 'form', 'manner', 'style', 'view', 'image'.

I think my argument is pretty clearly not about beauty but about form. In other words, transwomen who want breasts do so for the form of breasts, not the reproductive functionality. That is, they are not true secondary sex characteristics as they relate to sex.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aesthetics doesnt mean beautiful.

You prefer the aesthetics of a female-looking body. The shape of having breasts rather than a flat chest.

The women who get breast augmentation also do so due to body issues and adverse effect on mental wellbeing. I can turn it around and say you sound dismissive of them.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lmao I did google 'male nipple discharge' which can be caused by low testosterone, and is still not breastmilk.

And the experimental trans lactation that occurred in one case is not breastmilk either and was not recommended for infant consumption. More interesting and relevant I think would be to look at non-mother females who are induced to breastfeed. Would even they have the proper breastmilk to feed a baby, having never given birth? Because if you didn't know, women lactate after giving birth, which involves massive hormonal fluctuations and biological triggers.

I'd expect you to actually care about the nutrients we feed babies when considering the functionality of breasts. But, I'm always vigilant when hearing trans people talking about lactation, because if you weren't aware, it's at the very worst a fetish that comes up often enough along with menstruation simulation.

In summary, yeah I still don't see how you can consider a transwomen's breasts as actually functional beyond aesthetics :)

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see your perspective too and it was interesting to read the article. I just don't really understand why many transwomen seem to think they literally are women indistinguishable from female women, because females are indeed oppressed throughout the world according to sex, and no amount of self-identification or medical treatment will truly change this. I understand the dysphoria of wanting to be the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean sex is arbitrary and doesn't exist beyond gender presentation.

I'm not quite sure what your point is by saying your body does what everyone else's does except reproduction. Because yes, regardless of sex, we are all human beings with certain capacities. Healthy, we are able to move and eat, etc. But, it is sex capacities that differentiate between males and females, measurably. And these differences in sexual functioning are base to our experiences in our society.

Also, a woman who gets a breast job does so for aesthetic purposes, as does a transwoman. In either case they both have functional human bodies. Is it hurtful to say this surgery or hormonal treatment is aesthetic? Isn't it just truthful? It may make both feel better, which is good and is their choice and their right, but that doesn't mean it's not about aesthetics.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahhhh so this one trans person required an intense experimental medical regimen to produce nowhere near the amount or content that a woman produces, has unknown effects on the trans person and the child, and has not had its nutritional content verified. The article even says this practice is not recommended.

This is not something that naturally happens like with a female, and I wouldn't feed my child with this male lactation. In fact, the transwoman in your article didn't even feed their kid with it.

I think my point still stands, that for all intents and purposes the secondary sex characteristics that transwomen develop are not linked to female reproductive capacity, the very reason there characteristics exist in the first place. In transwomen they are largely if not entirely aesthetic, how could they not be?

A transwoman will never have to worry about the same sex-related issues that a woman will. As for gender stereotypes, these (unfortunately) arose because of sex differences. Yes, passing transwomen will likely experience some forms of misogyny. But they can never experience the full scope of being female.

I don't think it's wrong to say transwomen are transwomen, not women, as we clearly have different life experiences and challenges, both psychologically and physically.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The liquid discharge that some male nipples secrete is not breast milk and will not nourish a baby.

It's not comparable and fallacious to compare the two. Transwomens' breasts are indeed purely aesthetic.

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that hormone treatment and SRS can alter some transwoman to lower male physical levels of strength, but a transwoman in general is always stronger than the average woman and has none of the physical reproductive organs or stature than biological women have.

So, transwomen may not be 'men' by the gender term, but they are still 'male'. Secondary sex characteristics like breasts that don't function to feed a baby are purely aesthetic in transwomen and don't make them female. Transwomen and women also don't have the same economic or social concerns as they are not the same.

Transwomen are not female, and thus to call them women is to reduce womanhood to gender norms, which is detrimental to female rights. Transwomen are not men either, despite being male. They are transwomen.

GC: How do you feel that your lack of experience being trans impacts your approach to this debate? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I responded snarkily in another comment, but my truthful response is this:

I think my lack of experience being trans means I don't see how someone who is of the opposite sex than I am can possibly understand the struggles and situations I or my sex have faced since childhood. I think it makes me hyper aware of sexism coming from the opposite sex, and internalized misogyny coming from the same sex.

I can relate with transmen who reject femininity, because as a female I do not believe femininity makes a woman. I cannot relate with transwomen who think femininity makes them a woman, because even when I was a tomboy I was a girl.

To me, current trans identities focus too strongly on 'gender roles and expression' for their labels, while I personally think a person can present any gender role or expression while maintaining biological sex.

Dysphoria is another animal, but one I believe is related to body dysmorphia. I don't think it means you've been born in the wrong body, even if it feels that way, no more than I think an anorexic person is fat because they they think they are.

I think everyone has felt uncomfortable or repulsed by their body at some time or other, and that it's unfortunate that some trans people make this discomfort their identity.

To answer your questions, I think that being female means I have enough understanding to contribute to the debate with people who claim to be women even though they are male. I've read countless accounts from both sides to try and understand both perspectives. In fact I was a trans rights advocate until I thought too deeply and critically of the emotional arguments I was defending. I think I understand very well, as someone who is both a radical feminist and holding a certification in psychology. I do think it's important to consider all perspectives to form an informed opinion.

GC: How do you feel that your lack of experience being trans impacts your approach to this debate? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said this as a knee-jerk response, but you're right, I would like to hear their perspectives on this. I've never seen a transwoman fight for purely female-related rights after all.

GC: How do you feel that your lack of experience being trans impacts your approach to this debate? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

How do transwomen feel that their lack of experience being female impacts their approach to gender critical perspectives of sex-based oppression?

Redditor has a bad time at a gay orgy. The level of entitlement is astounding. This is what happens when you have little to no real world experience and fall for what the internet tells you. by Chipit in MeanwhileOnReddit

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol what are you even going on about

I'm not advocating FOR echo chambers, I'm saying they exist.

Obviously nuanced debate is the best way to develop well informed opinions through seeing both sides of an argument. No one is disputing that.

Redditor has a bad time at a gay orgy. The level of entitlement is astounding. This is what happens when you have little to no real world experience and fall for what the internet tells you. by Chipit in MeanwhileOnReddit

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

haha "this doesn't happen" ok then bud :)

It doesn't take a genius to notice this occurs in many spaces, and to deny it is just to be ignorant of a glaringly obvious internet phenomenon. Check out any political space.

Redditor has a bad time at a gay orgy. The level of entitlement is astounding. This is what happens when you have little to no real world experience and fall for what the internet tells you. by Chipit in MeanwhileOnReddit

[–]comradeconradical 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just like trans forums remove so called 'terf' rhetoric. Unless a forum is made for debate, its usually safe to consider it an 'echo chamber' of the group's opinions. This happens for many, if not most, perspectives. For better or for worse.

Why is GC critical of how women celebrate their sexuality? by Genderbender in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"I make choices for myself, not for others"

This is so easy to say when you ignore the larger impact certain choices perpetuate.

Obviously it's important to make choices for yourself, but don't pretend that all choices are wholly good and unarguable.

Further, yes we can say let everyone make their own choices, but we can still critically analyze these choices. We don't choose things in a vacuum.

More proof that NB is the woke flavor of "I'm not like the other girls" by LasagnaRossa in GenderCritical

[–]comradeconradical 38 insightful - 2 fun38 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Follow up with "what does it feel like to be a girl, then? What is there about gender to identify with?"

Maybe one day these people will realize how deeply they worship sexist stereotypes, even as they claim to reject them.

QT (but anyone who can answer): is there a consensus within the trans movement/liberal feminism on the definition of 'woman'? And what is the source of said definition? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC doesn't ask this as often because the common TRA slogan is TWAW.

But, TMAM is gaining traction, so perhaps we will get to see more debate on what it means be a man, instead of only focusing on the ever prevalent female erasure.