How often do you hear other LGB people (that you know in real life) encourage stereotypes or insults about LGB people? by reluctant_commenter in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
Agreed. It is very easy to assume that straight people understand much more about gay people as gay people than many of them do. But actually many of them have next to no exposure to gay people at all, they are occasional bit parts on TV/film and that is all the experience they have, where almost all of us grew up in straight house holds and are saturated in straight media and the world.
Stay away from chasers! by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
Thinking about it - I am gay and literally have 0 idea what would and would not be appropriate during sex in relation to breasts ... I mean why would I know what you should/shouldn't do.
I would guess that they sometimes get "grabbed", but wouldn't know - I also don't need to know this.
So perhaps she did indeed find a gay man.
[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago* (0 children)
By definition females can not fuck gold star gays. At the moment of consent, they cease to be gold star.
What the ever loving fuck Scotland? by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
I am guessing I can now call all ethnic minorities queers now ... because that is how it works.
If they object I get to tell them I reclaimed it for them (but no need to thank me).
...people are claiming that their prejudices are an innate part of their sexuality... by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
In some ways heterosexuality is easier for me to understand. Gay male sexuality only really varies from straight male sexuality in terms of the object of sexual desire, the way we manifest it is pretty similar, even what we value most highly in sexual partners is very similar. just of the opposite sexes. So heterosexuality is endlessly discussed, homosexuality I have personal experience of and seems very similar. But bisexuality? I don't know what that feels like. I don't really understand how you can like both, and I don't really understand how one can have a preference for one over the other (other than on practical grounds), I don't know what that experience is like.
I agree that biphobia is invisibility and erasure, a lack of a conceptual home as well as stigma. Where as the biphobia that gets talked about in the gay media is often eye rollingly self centred and a massive turn off to trying to understand what the issues are, it is usually some variation of "Why can't I bring my girlfriend along to the gay sex dungeon". This does not help me understand!
The reason I have become interested is that bi people are beginning to come out, they seem to be attracted to gay people as we are visible. All the ones I know are in heterosexual marriages, all with children. But a lot of them seem to feel a very strong kinship with me, and not uncommonly want some kind of support from me, which I feel spectacularly ill equipped to provide. They do not seem to turn to each other to discuss it however, there seems to be a significant level of wariness between them, where as they seem to want to embrace me with open arms.
Basically my understanding is poor, I don't really understand their motivation for wanting to talk to me (a gay man) about it, and most of all I don't know what it is that they need me to do?
Sorry I have two friends doing this to me ATM (one male one female), and I am very confused!
[–]Treeofthoughts 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
That is a mess!
LGBT+ is controversial enough, but they have also included ALL minority and ethnic people in it too, be they LGBT or straight.
Lumping the TQ+ with LGBT is controversial, lumping every non white person with us regardless of if they are LGBT just doesn't even begin to touch the sides of making sense.
Note the call to report people with wrong think.
Oh the pain, the pain: the agony of these dickless losers on /r/askgaybros by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago* (0 children)
You are suggesting that due to being deeply uncomfortable with heterosexuality and the implied submission for the female partner, that they then seek men who cannot desire them as the targets of their sexual interest?
That for a heterosexual women fantasising about gay men is an entirely safe way to explore their sexuality, and allows them to place themselves in the dominant position over the object of their desire, because ultimately they are straight (dominant group) and the object is gay susceptible to social degradation and in an minority group.
It would fit with the pattern for these kinds of heterosexual FTM posters, who aggressively use slurs specifically directed at gay men, and often try to induce shame in the objects of their sexual interest with homophobia, and expressions of disgust. It has always struck me as bizarre for someone to consider themselves to be a gay man and then to talk about how disgusting "cis F*gs" are and "cock obsessed" etc, when they consider themselves to be one.
It would also tally well with the disturbing amount of rape and abuse in Yaoi.
PS: I think this is about those who "identify as" trans via the yaoi type route, than those who would experience dysphoria where this wouldn't make much sense.
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
Wait there - the whole thing is condemning trans/woke homophobia. Where are the army of apologists saying that of course gay men like to have sex with women.
Has something fundamental changed? Have a big proportion of askgaybros users peaked???
When I gave up on Reddit it was a small group of die hard gays repeatedly refusing the genital fetish rhetoric and a moderately large group of other gays saying that homosexuality includes heterosexual sex. This thread is almost exclusively commented on by homosexuals!
PS: I loved Earl Gay Tea when I was on Reddit, and I just came across his comment. I still love this man's posts.
Welcome to the club honey, welcome to the club by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
These are the T's I still feel a significant connection to ...
LGBT is not a party and not everyone is invited, gatecrashing is not appreciated by any of us.
This one is a bit complicated as you have two different things happening.
L & G people mocking other homosexuals is often in-group joking, the understanding of the joke shows you are a member of the group, and permitting each other to make these jokes is bonding/group building. For example my Lesbian friend might make a joke about me in relation to interior decor and I will turn the conversation to her very sensible footwear, the mild humorous transgression builds a bond, we shared something that others from different groups may not be able to. I think bisexuals are in a more challenging position to crack these jokes and to be subjected to them. Straight people can be in very thin ice to approach this at all.
The other side of this is that a lot of LGBT people feel isolated from others, we are as individual as anyone else. The serotypes have some elements of truth, and are often reflective of the most visible or loudest parts of our "community". For a great many of us we cannot fit the stereotype or see it as harmful (often accurately), or feel alienated from being which ever letter we are because we are a bad fit. So we can be very happy to attack them, and throw in a healthy chunk of internalised homophobia and self hate, and you have a lot of unhappiness about what LGB people are perceived to be.
Cis faggots are so hot for her by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
I mean there is woke homophobia, and then there is just normal homophobia. This is just the normal variety.
'Working with Stonewall is no longer compatible with NHS values' by millicentfawcett in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
Thank you for posting!
I get the impression there are a lot of people who have been waiting in the wings for Stonewall to finally trip - and now they have, they are all knives and in my mind quite rightly so. Stonewall have taken a wrong turn and they are hurting everyone, but most of all they are hurting LGB&T people.
Things that have gone against Stonewall in 12 months:
That an Lesbian NHS chief executive is happy to publish this, shows how very very very far Stonewall has fallen.
Health service acting like Stasi with Pride pledge by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 2 days ago (0 children)
The NHS does indeed need to do very very much better for the LGB and the T groups.
It remains deeply backwards, and in the case of the Tavistock, it seems like there is a real risk they are harming LGB&T people.
HOWEVER - this is an entirely wrong headed thing to do. You do not have to pledge to be a part of pride. What about thier LGB staff?? The inclusion criteria is being same sex attracted, not signing a contract.
This is how to alienate people from our cause, demonstrate we are NOT like them, and instead that we are controlling, demanding, and oppressive people who want to dictate to them how they should think and feel.
All I want from straight people is tolerance, I do not need to live in their heads and scrutinise their thoughts.
When push comes to shove by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
The context is stupidity.
They took it at face value, a happy smiling person throwing their pride to the next one down the twitter replies. You could kind of cascade pride down all the replies.
Rather than the meaning of executing gay people in the middle east by throwing them from buildings.
This was hilariously bad.
A blue tick pride twitter account asking people to circulate a meme referencing ISIS executing gay men ... I mean FFS.
Pass on the homophobic death threat for pride!
Julie Bindel: There's no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian by yousaythosethings in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
I’ve seen gay men suggest they chose it in the media too.
The reason I restricted my comment to men is because of women had a choice lesbianism would seem to be the better option to me.
I do wonder if it means she is bisexual and therefore “chooses” lesbianism, which you kind of can do
Gender critical beliefs are now protected by equality law in the UK. by Treeofthoughts in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
I think he must be, otherwise it’s probably easier to frame this as GC feminism, which affects a lot more people than the LGB aspect.
It’s a clear swipe at stonewall for its excluding policies. It makes comparing GC to anti semites last week particularly ill concieved for an equalities charity (quite apart from the anti Semitism of the statement!).
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
Wow. Thanks for the link, just got to the end of the article. It deserves it's own post.
This guy must be gay?? His analysis is devastating, and in particular for the LGB part of it, encapsulates my concerns entirely.
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
I hadn't thought about that, but of course it would also cover the opposite gender ideology side. And quite rightly, I want to be free to express my beliefs, but I do think they should be free to express theirs without being discriminated against.
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
can you not see that???
Ok ill change the link to lesbian and gay news.
Is it because you are over seas?
I can't edit it now it is posted:
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
I need a subscription to read that.
I agree with Julie Bindel on a lot of things. I disagree with Julie Bindel on a lot of things.
I am very happy she feels she chose her sexual orientation. That does not mean anyone else did.
As a man the rational choice would have been to be straight - I would have been a straight white cis male. I would have gotten to be the oppressor, what's not to like! I would have pretty much hit every box Julie dislikes too ...
But damn those pesky feelings * shakes fist at the sky *
Celebrity drag queens' opinion on "genital preferences" by dilsency in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
It is like many things, we need to be able to divorce ideology from people. The problem with LGB and T people is that we seem to be indivisible, and so if you reject some of the unreasonable demands of trans ideology you are seen as rejecting all trans people, many of whom do not subscribe to it themselves.
The same goes for all LGBTQ+ issues, there is an expectation that we all think exactly the same and believe the same things.
I think there is room for LGB and T in society, but there is not room for beliefs which rob others of the freedom or make unreasonable demands.
Two words: internalised homophobia.
Refusing to say you are gay when you are, pretending you can be bisexual when you are not, agreeing that being homosexual is the lowest of the sexualities, apologising for being gay: none of these things is pride.
The modern LGBTQ+ movement has given a platform for those who self hate and those who then pass that hate on to others whole new avenues to explore.
Denying who you are, accepting you are inferior, trying or pretending to change is all poison.
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 34 insightful - 2 fun34 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 2 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
There seems to be a sea change in the UK in relation to gender ideology and the promotion of Stonewall's very specific and particular belief system.
This stuff is just all over the news at the moment.
Gender critical beliefs are now protected by equality law in the UK.LGB Victory
6 days ago by Treeofthoughts to /s/LGBDropTheT from bbc.co.uk
I’m so tired of the normalization of the word “queer” by MaxDefacto in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 6 days ago (0 children)
I hate it and feel entirely excluded by the word.
I am gay and never queer. I will not touch or read things with the word queer in them. So many efforts to be "inclusive" mean that frankly I just turn away from anything LGBT and instead continue to assimilate into straight society.
I will only see it as a term of hate.
I think it is fascinating how people who were NOT subjected to the word have decided to apply it to those who were as well as themselves.
I also just don't believe it isn't still a word of hatred towards gay men, I think a LOT of people who use it know it upsets many gay men and use it precisely because of that, it helps to marginalise us. There is a debate about the dominance of gay men in the "community", but terms of hatred still don't get a free pass.
Car crash interview on national radio. by Treeofthoughts in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts[S] 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun - 8 days ago (0 children)
So this was on Radio four - audience of 7.2 million listeners.
Simon Fanshawe co founder of Stonewall and now supporter of the LGB alliance discussing the current loss of members of Stonewalls Diversity Champions program, with Ben Cohen, owner of Pink News.
Simon is eloquent and puts his point across well, Ben entirely fails to engage with the issues, and goes on the attack, wasting any opportunity he may have had to make his points. It is a bit of a car crash.
Car crash interview on national radio.Discussion
8 days ago by Treeofthoughts to /s/LGBDropTheT from grahamlinehan.substack.com
Leave Stonewall alooooooone by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun - 8 days ago (0 children)
The opposite of Pride.
If you have 19 000 people talking about you as a rights charity this is a golden opportunity to put forwards your arguments.
Unless of course you feel your position is best not to be discussed in the cold light of day.
[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 8 days ago (0 children)
I had not meant to trigger you!
I agree with your last point quite strongly. This is based on my personal experience, but when I came out >20 years ago, I did not know a single bisexual person, now I know twice as many bisexual people as gay people, most of those have come out very much later, (20/30s/40s) including post heterosexual marriage and children, where as all the gay people I know came out in their mid to late teens. This is a big change in the dynamic of LGB, and even more so for the generations below where Bi people are more likely to come out early.
I can see the need for support and spaces for bi people, as I have have been turned to several times because I am gay, but I feel pretty ill equipped as I do not fully understand the experience and the issues can be quite different.
[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun - 9 days ago (0 children)
I suspect bisexuals are also very difficult to count, and I would suggest selection biases will be at play as well as social biases. The bisexuals I know earn in keeping with their social class or better, but several of them ID as heterosexual due to their current relationship status (so are invisible), and the others I would think have little to no interaction with "gay" type media (and so are uncontactable). It would make sense to me that bisexual women will earn less than the Lesbians, at least partly because they are more likely to have children with the economic disadvantages that still brings.
It is not like I want bisexuals to be separated, but I do think that it is common to see bi people saying they feel that they are neither accepted in the gay world or the straight, and bisexual spaces I would have thought would be a help with that!
[–]Treeofthoughts 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun - 9 days ago (0 children)
I would also think that a lot of bisexuals date each other and that mirrors my real life experience. Being able to share something which is actually pretty fundamental to how you experience the world and interact with it has it's own value.
I have always found I feel a bit of an outsider as a homosexual in a heterosexual world, I don't have that feeling with my partner, we are the same.
In some ways I kind of don't understand how heterosexual relationship work, they are literally different sexes, how do they find those grains of commonality between themselves!
I get that this is a bit rubbish for bi people - but actually bisexuals are a bigger group than gay people, so even if people only dated within their sexualities their pool would be bigger than the gay one. The issue to my mind is that bisexual spaces have not been created, they overlap into the huge heterosexual world, and the tiny gay world.
I would like to have a much better understanding of bisexuality, it is rarely discussed.
Here comes the backlash. Stonewall is a "gay rights organization," and "this is war." by GatitoMalo in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun - 9 days ago* (0 children)
This keeps me awake at night. Many people from my generation and those above still hold substantial negative beliefs about gay people.
There is a big group on the right who will be more than happy to jump on this current erroneous direction LGBtQ+ have taken to harm all of us. Casting gay men as women haters will gain some traction.
It’s all so sad and avoidable, and dancing tk LGB people.
Et tu Guardian? by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun - 9 days ago (0 children)
The guardian allowing a reporter to express this view is pretty stark - They are kind of the mainstream left wing. If they think this has gone too far it really has.
Though as a gay man who is gender ciriical (as same sex attraction has fundamentally shaped my life), I agree with @virginia_plain that the topic of betrayal of same sex attracted people by stonewall is important t and was not touched on.
I am scared that gender critical feminism” is going to be used as a wedge to attack LGB and T people by some , you can see it happening in twitter at times.
[–]Treeofthoughts 38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 1 fun - 9 days ago* (0 children)
I am just not bisexual ...
I am not sorry about that!
I was deeply ashamed and unhappy about not being able to be straight though a huge chunk of my childhood, I got over it and I am out and Proud!
There is fuck all chance that I’m going to elect to feel shame because of a failure to be bisexual.
Not dating bi people is not a sexuality 100% agree. That is a preference, but not all preferences are toxic, or illogical or wrong. Sharing my sexual orientation with my partner is important to me personally, it has meaning, my experiences as a gay man are different to a bisexual man, I will not feel guilt about wanting that shared understanding from the man I am married to.
I have lots of dating preferences, I would not date smokers, people with religious beliefs, TRAs, the long term unemployed, guys with severe disabilities, anyone I thought was ugly! - etc etc etc. Don’t pretend we are all equal opportunities daters, not a single one of us is, and making incompatible relationships is not the last equality hill to climb!
Trans groups go to war with Charity Commission over LGB Alliance by millicentfawcett in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 12 days ago (0 children)
Again just for accuracy Green is a straight women ...
But the point that we have straight people litigating against gay people on behalf of a third kind of person (some of whom used to be gay, but have become straight via transition) is not lost on me.
June seems to be the month when straight people identify as queer by MiaXiang in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun - 13 days ago (0 children)
Everyone after the first three flags there is an ally , so perhaps none of those should have a flag...
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 13 days ago (0 children)
This strikes me as fear.
It makes no more sense for a trans group to go after the LGB alliance they do not have cross over, there are LOADS of charities which will discriminate against trans people, almost every relgious based one for a start. Yet they are not targetted.
This is fear, and I for one am shocked by the level of fear they have. If I were a multimillion pound charity I would decline to engage with the LGB alliance, I would seek to paint them as a fringe group who are isolated and bigoted.
But this is a terrible choice (for them). They say we are one inseparable group - and then pick a trans charity to litigate against a LGB charity?? It demonstrates we are NOT inseparable. LGB people are very used to feeling attacked for who we are, when we start to do it within LGBT I do not think many of us will side with the instigators of that attack. If LGB people look at the alliance, a chunk of them are going to end up supporting it, a chunk of them are going to be upset that "gay" charities are going after other gay charities right to exist, a chunk are going to think it is a free speech issue, and a chunk will double down and side with the LGBTQ+.
Before I knew anything about the issues I had some spare cash I wanted to invest back into the gay community - so I started to look, which was the very first time I realised the TQ+ had become so prominent. Everything I looked at was about non binary, trans, gender fluid etc. But I whilst I wanted to give to people like me, I accepted that we were all lumped together. I think the idea that LGB people (the majority) might start to choose to support ourselves and our own charities may look terrifying to LGBTQ+
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 13 days ago (0 children)
Nancy Kelley is a very definitely a lesbian and she is married to a woman. Sorry, just needed to point out that!
Lesbians Aren’t Attracted to a Female ‘Gender Identity.’ We’re Attracted to Women - Quillette article by Kathleen Stock by reluctant_commenter in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 13 days ago (0 children)
I do hope she is for LGB people, she is both a lesbian and as of yesterday she is a trustee of the LGB alliance! She is getting space in UK need papers.
I suspect her definition makes sense in philosophical circles, but not to the common person.
And steal away. There are so many “gotcha” reposes to gay people on this topic. Suspect because many of the people saying these things are children, ASD, homophobic or simply have no understanding of sexuality. Finding a trans man superficially attractive because of thier surgically and hormonal created secondary sexual characteristics does not mean I can settle down with them and they can bear children for us ... they are female I am homosexual, fundamental incompatibility.
Professional Judy: “Charities like Mermaids and Stonewall have used our well established organisations as a Trojan horse to push a deeply homophobic ideology.” by Movellon in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun - 14 days ago* (0 children)
Is something big changing?
Government are abandoning the diversity champions scheme, as apparently are Channel Four and a police force (though I can't find where they said that). This is being pushed by a Government Minister.
Gender critical beliefs are going to be defended by the EHRC as a valid belief system, yet Stonewall double down and say it is "like antisemitism", which has the potential to offend those who are not involved in the debate, and like intersex people Jewish people are now being appropriated for this debate.
Mermaids (a group ran by a straight woman), and two LGBT groups attempt to take the charity commission to court about the LGB alliance, the nations only LGB charity. Multiple national news papers have picked up on this. It appears this is a high risk strategy as the litigation like this is not viewed well by the charity commission.
Alison Bailey's case against Stonewall is also suddenly of interest to National papers.
5 new trustees for the LGB alliance, with significant pedigree ...
Am I just too deep into this issue, or has there been a sudden turning point??
I only discovered this 18 months ago as a problem for LGB people, and we seem to have gone from 0 all the way through to the issue being in national papers repeatedly and government beginning to get involved.
PS: I had not thought that perhaps Stonewall were going to position gender identity as a religious belief system with all that entails.
[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun - 15 days ago* (0 children)
Kathleen Stock is getting a lot of prominence, and air time at the moment. Which is a good thing, a GC lesbian academic.
I am also not a fan of her definition of sexual orientation @Gatitomalo . It is simply which sex you are attracted to, male or female or both, the social consequences do not make it an orientation. There are many animals which are not social which have sexual orientations. But then she is a philosopher.
Now onto the meat of the points she makes, when Stonewall and GLAAD change sex for gender:
Same sex orientated children can be "fixed" by changing their gender, and to suggest otherwise is transphobic.
To exclude opposite sex (trans) people from your bedroom becomes transphobic.
Sex by deception becomes unreasonable and transphobic.
Lesbians and gay men can only be understood as transphobic bigots.
So she encapsulates all my my fears and understandings, and why I am now vehemently opposed to Stonewall.
I also like that she tackles the discussion around the highly successful surgical transwoman/man and those who date them as lesbian/gay. As Dr Stock points out, arguing about if the "cis" people dating these individuals are gay/lesbian and therefore same GENDER attracted does not support the gender identity line at all, as the trans person has attempted to SEX change, which only continues to demonstrate that sexual orientation relies on SEX. The same goes for that airbrushed picture of multiple highly muscular bearded trans men that did the rounds last week, if a gay man finds them attractive, it is because they appear AS IF they were the same SEX, and not because their gender identity is male.
Us poor widdle men are scared of big mean lesbians by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun - 16 days ago (0 children)
TBF I have been scared by a lesbian on occasions. To make a sweeping stereotypical statement (as explicit banned in the rules) as a group you tend to call out shit ...
When you say "I'm against raping people" and then start the following sentence with a "but" by ThrowMeAway2879 in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 18 days ago (0 children)
But women reading yaoi or gay fanfiction doesn't necessarily mean that two men together or men at all is a part of their sexual fantasies
But women reading yaoi or gay fanfiction doesn't necessarily mean that two men together or men at all is a part of their sexual fantasies
Agreed, it would not necessitate that. But when you have an entire genre for women based on sexualised romances between men, that’s the point where it becomes fetish.
What I mean about there being no gay men in the stories is that a woman writing a story about “gay” men to satisfy her own urges is not a story about gay men. The aim is not to accurately portray what it is to be a gay man, it’s to make the characters meet her fantasies. That’s why I use the porn example - it is the same concept though enacted very differently. Both are using gay or lesbian existence to further thier own fantasies, it is not about us.
I think there are sex differences between how men and women experience and explore thier sexualities. Men tend towards the visual where as romance stories with sex are more popular for women.
But as a gay man who likes a romantic literature this stuff feels very fetishised and does not ring true at all. The characters are not gay men, they are vessels for the fantasies of another. And I wouldn’t care if it were explicitly so, so I could then seek literature aimed at me for me, and ignore the discomfort this other stuff causes me. But it’s mixed together and often deliberately, with the female author masquerading as a gay man.
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 19 days ago* (0 children)
It is fetishisation, and as an object of the fetish I find it insulting and dehumanising ... BUT sexual fantasies are what they are - I can partly understand why it speaks to some women, particularly given the treatment of women in relation to sex in society.
So whilst I find it upsetting, I think I have some kind of low level understanding and a sliver of sympathy.
But there are no gay men in these stories to sympathise with. There are only women and thier projections dancing for the sexual pleasure of other women.
It is no different for men watching lesbian porn made for straight guys. They are not watching lesbians, they are watching two women perform for thier sexual pleasure.
A lot of porn is at best morally grey. Other than finding it personally insulting I am not sure it is much worse than the rest and at least the actors are not real people!
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 19 days ago (0 children)
This is a known thing, some straight men will feign being gay to circumvent straight girls defenses.
If a girl is going to have sex with a straight man if he says he is gay, quite a few will be happy to play along!
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 19 days ago (0 children)
No of course there is no cis gay man who will be with you.
It is an oxymoron. A man who wants to sleep with females is either straight or bisexual. He can call himself gay but he is not homosexual and therefore not gay like I am.
This thinking is reductive. What we need in life is love, not narrow validations based on someone else invalidating themselves.
This is like a straight women having a fantasy of turning a gay man to prove her sexual prowess, it reduces the other person to how they can fulfil your needs and desires. In fact it is a straight female wanting to turn a gay man ...
"Trans girl attacked at school" - except he is not trans. He is gay! Why are they transing people in the headlines? by Rag3 in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun - 19 days ago (0 children)
That’s pretty dire when he and his family are interviewed he does not say it’s because he is a trans girl but because he is a gay boy.
Reclassifying a gay boy as a girl is re victimising the victim.
Honestly I think a proportion of straight people would be more comfortable with transing away the gay.
I hope he is ok. It looks like he has family support at least.
Formerly asexual-identified, now androphilia-orientated and gender critical by SexualityCritical in SuperGay
[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago (0 children)
Sorry lead here by your other thread, also discovered there is a supergay!
Don't beat yourself up, and don't cringe. I didn't find figuring it all out easy, and I did it in a time before all the labels happened. I suspect I would have picked asexual when I was a teenager as a way to side step the sexuality I was uncomfortable with.
Yeah I can imagine the current fever pitch around gender ideology will cause some issues in dating. But all political views do, someone who is very right wing may not be for someone who is very left wing, I have ceased a dates for both of those reason (I am a centrist!). But also your partner does not need to feel exactly the same as you do on every topic.
I have been off the dating scene for a long time, but finding guys was never difficult as a gay man, it was finding nice ones that I actually wanted to spend time with which was the challenge.
As for some of your other fears, Trans men are rare, very rare, I would not waste time worrying if the guy you like might actually be a female, I can't see how you would not find that out fairly rapidly ...
Gay men are usually pretty clear why they like each other, it is not due to social constructs, it is going to be a combination be how you look and your personality. Again don't waste time or energy worrying about gender.
What's the general consensus on sexuality being a choice? by SexualityCritical in GenderCritical
[–]Treeofthoughts 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago (0 children)
My sexuality was not a choice. I chose heterosexual, but I got homosexual and that was the end of the story.
It is not complicated or philosophical, I experience attraction, lust and love towards men, but not towards women. This is biological like many of my base emotions, we are hardly unique in having sexual feelings and sexualities it happens widely in the natural world, and we are a part of it.
As June draws near, is anyone else preparing to be the eye-rolling cynic at every mention of 'pride'? by ArthnoldManacatsaman in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago (0 children)
self-describe as being "kweer" and then talk over people who actually are LGB and who often might have trouble speaking up about their experiences of being LGB in a homophobic world
self-describe as being "kweer" and then talk over people who actually are LGB and who often might have trouble speaking up about their experiences of being LGB in a homophobic world
This is a fundamental problem. It is what has happened to the gay rights organisations, our spokes people are self appointed, we don't vote for them and anyone can stand up to talk on our behalf to anyone who will listen.
It has meaning to me, but no longer for myself though.
I am middle aged, comfortable, settled. My Pride is easy, I have power, security, and I know who I am. That is not true for everyone, that is not true for the teenager in school being bullied, feeling isolated, having no connections to others like him/her, wondering if it will be ok. It is not true for those who deny we exist, pretend that because they don't know us we are imaginary and can be ignored and repressed.
That is not to say I do not have reservations. Public sex and nudity is not ok, but our local Prides here are not like that at all, they are very family friendly.
My concerns are related to the yoking of my being gay to other issues which I may not support or profoundly object to (conversion therapy of gay youth for example). I object to the corporate sponsorship, they do not care about us, they see an idea/logo/concept with out copyright and so seek ownership of it and therefore us and our custom. 20 years ago there was not a single rainbow flag in the city during pride, not even outside of the building it was being held INSIDE of and you needed to have free tickets to "prove" you were ok to get in, now the whole shopping mall is bedecked in rainbows.
Finally it is the atmosphere. When I used to go to Pride it was the only time in the year where I was outside in the open air and not in a minority. This is no longer true where I am at least. Last time I went, I did not feel comfortable enough to hold my partners hand ... at PRIDE, I saw people gawping at the actual same sex couples! The increased acceptance has lead to increased attendance, and that is great, but I was a little sad to loose that experience of being in a majority!
The link is great by the way!
These fellas would turn heads in any gay bar by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago (0 children)
OH! i didn't know that was possible, but the degree of abdominal muscle development seems unfeasible without a similar level of muscular development of the arms and legs.
If the Drop the T movement is successful, would you want the community to return to what it used to be? by PatsyStone in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago (0 children)
Can you not just tone it down?
At this point I probably disagree with censoring you, you will simply make a new name each day after your ban. It would be easier for me if you just kept one user name so I could identify you.
You have some very strong opinions, some of which I can sympathise with, others I cannot. But hey, that's opinions for you. It is the generalised attacks which you need to drop.
I can't engage with the points you make which do have validity when you angrily generalise them onto every person who is not you. Even if every point you ever made was indisputably 100% true people would still fail to discuss with you because you go on the attack without regard to how it makes others feel. It is not a strategy which is working for you, unless you are simply ranting into the void.
Please balance what you say with humanity towards others.
[–]Treeofthoughts 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun - 20 days ago* (0 children)
Total agreement. This is a evolution of homophobia. I grew up in a system which legally and socially discriminated against L&G and the B (in a different way). I like many others had to reject it and was forced to find common cause with other LGB people because of my homosexuality, which gave an identity overlay to my underlying sexual orientation. It was a terrible system to grow up in.
Young people now still have LGB orientations, but some are trying to identify out of opression. We have always had a concept of internalised homophobia, but we have now institutionalised internalised homophobia inside LGBT, where we tell "cis gays/lesbians" that they are evil due to their sexual orientation. So it is kind of ok to be LGBT but not ok to be a proud homosexual. Gender is a more genteel conversationone can have over the dinner table, it is about social stereotypes, where as sexual orientation involves who you want to have sex with, and remains taboo. I definitely see LGBT signing up to this concept - lets have conversations about what clothes people should wear, lets not talk about people's sexual partners.
So I suspect it is easier to say you are a NB girl and as you have removed ourself from the category girl - you can like other girls without being a lesbian - which is a porn category for straight men, or a group of bad women within LGBT. You can be stunning and brave, and have side stepped the lesbophobia, can pour scorn on other lesbians, all whilst still being a lesbian.
Same goes for queer - the boy using that label pretends its about nail varnish and funky hair, when really he is indicating without having to say it, that he is going to fall in love with another boy and have sex with his own sex. He is already rejected from straight society, but by using queer at least he is no longer an evil and oppressive sex obsessed genitally fixated white cis gay.
LGBT is not waiting with open arms to accept these kids and young people, it is deeply judgemental and can be profoundly homophobic. You have to be the RIGHT kind of queer or you can get out. It has become a branch of philosophy, when it should be about people.
[–]Treeofthoughts 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago (0 children)
You are right, my perspective is from the UK. I am not familiar with the culture in the US, and a lot of the recent events over the last 5 years have made me realise how different our cultures are despite the shared language.
My impression is that there must be much more discrimination - your protections are not yet universal, and it is still up for debate in a way that it really is not here. Also you have religion in a way we do not. I certainly get the impression that big gay communities concentrated in large cities are the norm, where as here, even our large cities are not large in terms of the US excepting London. I also get the impression that the direction of movement is different between "TERF island" and the US at the moment.
I am sorry things are getting harder. I am worried about the atmosphere for our youth here, IRL it is definitely SO much better than my youth, but I live in the same online space that they do, and it is so much worse than it used to be.
[–]Treeofthoughts 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago* (0 children)
I like the question!
And no I do not want things to return to how they were.
We hung around together as a community because we had to. It was not safe to go on a night out to a straight place, particularly if you were visibly gay. It would 100% have been unsafe to attempt to make a move on someone in those environments.
Politics also united us, every LGBT person had my ally-ship on the big political issues, no matter how much I didn't like them or how much I disagreed with other aspects.
I see our place in the mainstream now and with interest groups. We are mostly accepted ish, I can move in straight circles, I do not get rejected or discriminated against regularly, I can make friends with people who are like me in personality and interests and not confine myself to those who don't hate me for being gay ie: other gay people.
What I want is more LGB interest groups, more gaymers, more sports clubs, social groups, charities, and offering support to each other. We still suffer from much worse mental health for example. I want us to be able to build social networks, not isolated enclaves.
Mostly I want the uncoupling of the LGB and the TQ+ so the LGB is left alone. I am an assimilationist, when I realised I was gay I saw no reason for me to change my world view or expectations for my life because I happened to like other boys, I have carried that through into adulthood. I do not want to fight for neo pronouns, or neo identities. I do not want to create new definitions of people so we can pretend that is oppression. I want to support other LGB people within our broader community.
[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago (0 children)
For your reference.
It’s almost Pride month so have some gentle reminders from Aydin's buddy Jaecyn by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
Your point is very important.
I used to roll my eyes at the concept of bi erasure (as presented to me by Pink News) that straight people are mean and gay people even worse, and I should feel bad about it. I used to think - why are these guys and girls who can fly under the radar complaining, why is this something I should care about as a gay person?
But it is really important! Bi people feeling they have to define as gay or straight is a disaster for everyone, it hollows out what being bi means. Of course I should care because of the shared attractions, discrimination and basic humanity, but also from a purely self interested perspective. "straight" bisexuals are invisible, and so minimise the size of the same sex attracted population, "gay" bisexuals undermine what it is to be gay, and to compound the problem we apply negative stereotyping to those who are in the middle. It is a label which needs a lot more love and I hope many more people can be true to their sexuality and feel proud of it!
[–]Treeofthoughts 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago (0 children)
Note that lesbians and gays are the only ones who are excluded.
Every class of person gets to self define themselves, even if their self definition is an impossible oxymoron such as a sexual asexual.
There are lesbians who are bi, lesbians who are straight but no lesbians who are lesbians. There are gay men who are bi, but no gay men who are gay.
Even straight people are included, the only group of people excluded from her pride are homosexuals.
[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago* (0 children)
Hassan Mamdani's thread which precedes this is brilliant however, and I would definitely have a read of it:
I do question what has happened to the mastectomy scars, as they have all had double mastectomies. This is from an advertising campaign for an underwear brand and airbrushing is nearly ubiquitous in underwear advertising. Most pass very well, and I wonder how they would feel to know they are being used as a trap question to tell a gay man that he can't actually be gay ... unhappy/indifferent/agreement?
"Stonewall is no longer an advisor and campaigner on lesbian and gay equality. Instead, it has set itself up as the arbiter of who is the right kind of gay" - Simon Fanshawe, co-founder of Stonewall by reluctant_commenter in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun - 21 days ago (0 children)
And here is my messy link to an article you can barely read written by another co founder of stone wall also critiquing its current approach.
A conversation with my mom from last night I figured you guys would enjoy by julesburm1891 in LGBDropTheT
Outside of LGBT I don’t think these things have much traction, and your mums position is pretty mainstream.
People don’t have prejudices agaisnt NB or pansexual which need to be challenged. Theses are new words for new identities which are at best rebranding of real things like bisexuality, at at worst an attempt to create a new social catagory of person which has never previously existed. I suspect they they will pass as a fad before you can educate enough people to know what they are. Again it’s why I object to same sex attraction being lumped in with trying to create a third social gender of non binary, one is innate and immutable, the other is a concept and entirely mutable. It can only harm us to look like we are making up identities and new catagories of people, claiming oppression and then demanding rights for these new things.
Do you ever stop and think, WHY is this alleged straight man putting this question to gay people and not heterosexuals? by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago* (0 children)
I stopped using Reddit because of this stuff. But I used it long enough to recognise the style of writing as an individual person. I engaged with this person - they are a big factor in my peaking. For them, my experiences as a gay man are entirely invalid, only they know the truth about who and what I am.
I would assume it was someone who feels they would benefit if gay men agreed we are not homosexual.
Quick, grab your share of queer oppression before some more privileged person steals it by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago (0 children)
Ok ok okay. This covers a lot of issues in one messy article.
I object to the word queer, but let’s put that aside - this girl is bisexual, and working class dumped into a middle class institution and coming to terms with being bi.
That’s hard. I think bisexuality seems to give added difficulties in a sense of self, which as a homosexual I only have limited insight into. But I can see how it can lead to complexities.
But - the authors experience is nearly universal arn’t they? Do the middle class lesbians feel fully accepted and embraced ? Do the lower class straights at university feel free of stereotypes and ignorance from thier “social betters”? Do bisexual people always feel accepted by homosexuals? Do homosexuals feel accepted by each other and by bi people?
No is the most common answer to those questions, and an occasional qualified yes.
I did not feel accepted at university for my social background. I did not particularly feel accepted by other gay people. I got classified as straight and still do by others, despite being out since school.
Everyone feels like an outsider to some degree, we have to learn to live with it. I hope she gets to where she wants to be ...
LGB ALLIANCE global webinar on Wednesday, May 26th RE the worldwide wave of homophobia. Also how LGB is also under attack by gender ideology & how LGB activists around the world are fighting back. by BEB in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago (0 children)
I am finding this kind of content very helpful.
Thier twitter is less helpful as it’s too complex a topic, and thier website is a little sparse on what they stand for and what they want to achieve. This stuff has lead to me making charitable contributions to them
Post about pansexuality labels me as an awful transphobe and when I criticize NBs, they tell me that gay men used to be perceived as mentally ill. I'm sad to see that even so many cis gay men can be blinded by Ice-Kagen in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago (0 children)
Ah ok, I get your arguement a lot more then your earlier post.
Some of the responses are bizzare, and do confirm that pansexual is a biphobic identity to indicate your bisexual but better and free of the negative stereotypes.
[–]Treeofthoughts 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago (0 children)
New account - this is not a straight man who is curious about the feelings of the gay community.
The writing style is familiar enough that I can recognise this troll.
So, today is pansexuality's international day... by Ice-Kagen in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 22 days ago (0 children)
I don’t have an issue with someone using the panlabel to suggest they find mixed sex characteristics attractive. In some ways I think there should be pan gays to separate the Kinsey 5 gay people who also find masculinised/feminised opposite sex people attractive. But bisexual works too - yet it’s a label many seem reluctant to use.
But 100% pan is also used to virtue signal, in a honophobic/biphobia way. We don’t get to pick our sexualities, the suggestion that everyone who is not pan experiences love in a superficial sexually obsessed way is grossly insulting - it’s another leaf from the old school homophobic text book.
Once you stray from the Nazi binary by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
Same sex attraction is one fairly sinole concept which is likely to be predominantly biological in origin. Trans gender covers wildly different groups of people who are unhappy with thier gender or get a thril out of transgressing it. No one set of ideas or definitions is going to be able to cover it.
The latest from gay male group gone TQ+ by JulienMayfair in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun - 23 days ago (0 children)
I have kind of come to a similar conclusion to your final edit. Some of what is considered TQ+ is a variety of mental health, people who do not feel they fit for what ever reason, be that a personality disorder, backgrounds with significant trauma, autistic spectrum disorders etc. None of these things are bad in and of themselves, and many people are great with these issues, but for some it seems to lead to very extreme online behaviours which are not infrequently homophobic. It seems to concentrate in LGBT spaces disproportionately, but in gay spaces too. If I visit a conspiracy theory forum I am going to expect a lot of crazy, but when I visit a gay space why is everyone at each other's throats?
The age thing is a different issue which the gay community suffers from. I get the impression there are very few connections between the generations sadly.
Stonewall’s same-gender attracted chickens are coming home to roost by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 23 days ago (0 children)
I hope so. I think I have watched and listened to enough of thier YouTube content to support them.
I just worry that the push back agaisnt moves to damage women’s rights, will end up as a front for the anti gay band wagon. I know by being gender critical I am making some uncomfortable bed fellows ...
[–]Treeofthoughts 31 insightful - 3 fun31 insightful - 2 fun32 insightful - 2 fun32 insightful - 3 fun - 23 days ago (0 children)
We should abolish gender, it’s a social construct, let’s build another better one which is less constrictive and oppressive .
But sex will remain - males and females, and so will homosexuals.
Sunday Social - open chat! by TumbleweedFireflies in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 23 days ago (0 children)
Skylines has certainly captured my other half’s attention in a way that sim city failed to, if that helps!
Did we lost people? Perhaps they just don’t know saidit is up again? by CuntWorshiper in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun - 23 days ago (0 children)
How long has it been back? I only noticed an hour or two ago.
All of this contributes to my worries.
Yes I think stonewall has abandoned gay people and our rights. I cannot support an organisation which seeks to muddy the waters around what being gay means, and therefore deny me the word as a same sex attracted man.
BUT - the EHRC being on the opposite side to the largest LGBT charity is still a scarey thing to see. It does not mean the direction of movement is towards my position, I am gender critical, but I am also gay. The lurch to the right my country has taken happens to align with some of my specific beliefs around gender but will it stop with rationality, or continue into the comfortable right wing groove of homophobia ?
Hilarious karma by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun - 28 days ago (0 children)
Don’t these tweets just need reporting?
My clit is just an undeveloped penis by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun - 28 days ago (0 children)
I really do think that it should be intersex people who are talking about intersex issues and how they would like the rest of us to deal with those issues.
I imagine having people who do not have disorders of sexual differentiation speak for you for thier own reasons must be frustrating.
Separately it’s an odd arguement. If there is no such thing as sex, it’s simply a spectrum of characteristics, and there are no cis people, then there are no trans people. This seems like a gender critical arguement taken to the extreme that it is also sex critical. Thst our genitalia/sex don’t matter we are all people. My objection to erasing men/women is that oddly enough the non childbearing people who already have the power will continue to disadvantage the other kind of human. Removing the concept of sex will not result in equality for everyone, or us all becoming bisexual. If other mammals arrange thier social groups by sex without the concept I suspect we will not struggle without our Eurocentric (?) views on physical reality.
r/bisexualadults - Might as well say I'm a gay man who likes women by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun - 29 days ago (0 children)
Bisexual erasure is a huge issue, obviously for bisexual people but to a lesser extent for homosexual people.
I get why straight society thinks all bi people are gay - any degree of homosexual attraction being classed as homosexuality. Do a lot of gay people do this ? I have always been very aware that bi people exist, and found the idea that they might not bizzare.
Does anyone else here worry about this? by helloolleh in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
All the lesbians I know are in committed relationships or married. Several of them have either their own or adopted children. So lesbian life looks an awful lot like everyone else's life to me. Being gay does not alter who you are, or what you are entitled to expect or want from your life.
Your description of how you feel sounds an awful lot like you are a lesbian, though that something only you can know and decide on. But being a Lesbian or gay or bi is not a mental health condition. It occurs in nature in many other animals, and it occurs in every society and every time period, it is just a variant of normal, like blue eyes, or red hair.
Religions are a complication because they include LGB people in their beliefs regardless of if it is fair or not, and there are many religions and many versions of religions, so you can choose if you wish to listen to them or not.
There is no correct life. Some people believe they live as a god or gods intended, but that is a different issue to if gay is natural vs a mental health issue. The only reason you ask these questions is because you have been taught that not being straight is abnormal and a problem when it it IS normal and is only a problem because other people make it so.
Not all LGB people go through a period of intense self questioning and doubt, but many of us do, myself included. The only advice I can give you is to know that you are not wrong, that asking questions of yourself is fine, but try to come to constructive conclusions which help you move forwards in life and avoid blaming yourself or hating who you are. You are not alone in this, many (?most) LGB people have experienced this.
The insufferable... er, suffering... is real by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I do not think asexuality is an orientation in the same way as same sex attraction.
I think you have to be somewhat careful with how you deal with this kind of data. Depression and anxiety cause loss of sexual interest, so finding that 63% of children who define themselves by their lack of sexual interest suffer from poor mental health might be expected. 33% of these children have an anxiety or depression disorder. Also this is a group of 11-18 year olds, not feeling sexual attraction at 11 is 100% normal.
It appears form this article that the children who define as asexual appear to be LGBT - so same sex attracted or gender atypical. Why do heterosexual asexuals not dominate the group 90+% as they do all in other sexualities - could it be anything to do with self hate, internalised homophobia, repression and poor mental health?
How can one be asexual and gay? You are identifying as experiencing no sexual feelings, but "if" you did it would be same sex? That sounds a lot like discomfort ...
I do not doubt that some people do not experience strong or even any sexual impulses, these people have always existed.
But they did not exist in large numbers 20 years ago, they are new and I simply do not believe that an enlightened society has permitted them a new way to express themselves. I suspect an unenlightened society has conspired with other circumstances to create a label to apply to them. I have no doubt that at 15/16 I would have leapt on the asexual label - anything to explain why I did not like girls and to deny I liked boys, I could not conceive of what being gay was like, I even had people suggest I was asexual 20 years ago before it was a thing (I am definitively not).
trans guy agrees with supergay and superstraight..... maybe there's hope for the T after all by lesbianbarbie in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I have never understood why this is not the default view point.
Sexuality labels are helpful! They help you identify people who can find you attractive, and are good dating prospects. I can’t imagine how hard my dating life would have been if we did not have the labels gay and bi, and instead I had to individually quizz each man to figure out their sexual orientation. It would be a disaster, lead to loads of rejection and rejections which would feel particularly insulting and yes - invalidating.
So I get why some trans people are upset about this topic - but the ONLY solution is dating people who can find them hot. The idea that it is everyone else’s issue to educate themselves and “change” thier sexual orientation is wrong. It’s like me saying straight guys need to be gay because I find it upsetting that I am a member of a minority and with limitations on my dating prospects ...
And as this trans man says - trans is not a monolith. Gay and bi are also not monoliths either, yet somehow we have arrived at a point where LGBTQ+ is !!
Liz Truss confirms conversion therapy ban and consultation on “protecting the medical profession and defending freedom of speech” by Movellon in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
Obviously they have to be careful about limiting appropriate therapy for people with issues around gender and sexual orientation, and in particular in relation to children.
What I am also interested in is how it will match in with freedom of religion. Is it going to be illegal for churches and mosques to convert gay people ? If I am gay and religious will it be criminalised if I want to seek religious conversion.
I have very strong personal views on religion, but what’s the plan here ?
Today’s Prides are “spitting in the faces of the brave men and women who marched for our rights at a time when Pride marches still had value, purpose and relevance. by Movellon in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
Our pride is very family friendly. It is sadly a signature on the letter against the LGB alliance, and I won’t go into why that is ironic ...
There are LGB kids, there are kids of LGB people, and so I would rather Pride was family friendly than resembled some kind of sex parade.
Trixx doesn’t particularly like it when his clients — who are mostly cis gay men, though they include people of all genders — fetishize HER by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 22 insightful - 5 fun22 insightful - 4 fun23 insightful - 4 fun23 insightful - 5 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
This is all kinds of interesting.
Most of this person's clients are cis gay men who are fetishising vaginas ...
The idea that it is uncomfortable for a client who pays for access to the use of the sex workers genitals to fetishise them.
A charity for male sex workers turning down trans women for support on the basis they don't identify as men.
The idea that sex workers foster understanding, care, love and advocacy between communities.
Some level of superficial analysis of why gay men may not like vaginas featured in pornography, but only along an abstract political axis.
The idea that some gay male sex workers who do not like vaginas are becoming "accountable"
Describing what I perceive as sexuality as "pointless boundaries"
Cards on the table - I do not think sex work is empowering or a career that many people take out of fully informed conscious choice. I do not think it is labour in the same way as other jobs, and the level of exploitation is much higher. But I do find this take to be interesting, surely all sex workers are fetishised, one does not pay a person to use their body for sex because you value the whole person, you do it because you have the means to exploit that person as an object to fulfil your own desires.
I suspect sex workers often do loose the rights to boundaries, I am certain they are regularly dehumanised. So I am not shocked to see a sex worker suggesting "accountability" for other sex workers who will not perform based on sexual orientation - it is a job, someone is paying, and they don't pay to care how you feel - now dance.
Amnesty International - selling out LBG people since forever, to everyone from Islamic terrorists to gender terrorists by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
Iran has forced transition for gay people.
The state recognises and funds trans people.
Gay people can be punished by death.
Amnesty international taking the murder of a gay man in Iran as an opportunity to promote a western political movement to erase gay people is particularly sick.
I'm a girlfag because... by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
... yeah I am beginning to wonder the same thing .. :(
[–]Treeofthoughts 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
I believe the correct woke term is that this girl needs to “check her privilege”.
She is for queer liberation but believes being a faggot is offensive. She needs to meet some gay people and listen to them rather than thinking about herself.
"gay men are the weakest link" compilation by motss-pb in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
So as far as solidarity goes, I would agree, gay men are the weakest link. I have come to see that as a good thing, because whilst I have strong solidarity with other same sex attracted people, I do not have solidarity with all of LGBTQ+.
Gay men are the biggest, most visible and most powerful section of LGBT, we are the least likely to pretend that we are something we are not to please others. As LGBTQ+ sprouts legs and walks off from us, we will indeed be the weakest link, the one who is most likely to break and whose breakage will be the most damaging. Lesbians have broken first, but if large numbers of gay men begin to break with LGBTQ+ then the movement is at risk.
Personally I think we need to be a weaker link, make the break sooner and redefine. Hello LGB alliance ...
Bisexuals fantasizing outloud..again by UselessThought in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
This behaviour from some bi men towards gay men is not hugely uncommon, but I have never fully understood the motivation.
The whole world caters to heterosexual sex, it is normalised and celebrated, yet they choose to discuss it in the miniscule space reserved for those who are not heterosexual. Why?
I went to a forum dedicated to heterosexuals sex and started talking about how "cock is driving me wild", I would expect a negative response, I am off topic, and talking about the literal opposite of what the people in the forum are there to talk about. So why do some bi guys do this? I assume it is internalised homophobia or biophobia - that the space is "too gay" and that is some how perceived as a threat, is it that they feel the space should cater for all aspects of their sexuality (despite being marked gay) and so post explicitly not gay stuff? I am uncertain ?
It seems weird that we can apparently only talk about how gay we might be in one direction.
It seems weird that we can apparently only talk about how gay we might be in one direction.
I mean yeah dude! Gay only goes in one direction ...
Also - Hello again Silentchief, you browse here as often as I do!
A thought about the use of the word 'queer' as a descriptor by lovelyspearmint in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I think it is a particularly poisonous philosophy for gay people. The only definition permitted is reactive - anything not normal is queer, you can not be a positive thing such as gay, lesbian, or bi, you can only be a weirdo or not a weirdo.
It sounds like it is for the advancement of LGB people, people assume that it is, people study it thinking they are going to help people like us. Achieving gay equality is makes us normal, we cease to be queer, so straight misfits with blue hair are the new weirdos on the block and are suddenly queer. This leads to appropriation and redefining of the struggles and experiences of LGB people against whom the word queer was originally used..
Critical Race Theory (about which I will freely admit my ignorance) seems like a much more robust theory for the advancement of racial minorities, regardless of if you agree with it's tenets or not, it is likely to consistently work in the favour of the people it was intended to work for. Unlike Queer Theory which will forever move onto the newest group of weirdos (and I mean that in the queerest way possible).
He/They and They/Them Gay Men: My Issue With Them by Capn in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
It is the basis of my objection to listing my pronouns. As a gay man I do not like the implication that I might not be a man, and that somehow people cant tell.
Pretending you don't have a sex, particularly if you are gay feels like the opposite of Gay Pride, it feels like a soft way to avoid others seeing you as gay and accepting your own sexual orientation. We should be proud of who we are! Proud of being a man and proud of being gay.
Society is homophobic, our rights are equal, but we are not socially equal. This stuff just feels like the next generation trying to avoid having to be gay because it is still seen as a bad thing to be.
I wish more people knew that not only TQ+ wants to trans the gay away, but also trans the autism away. by theytookourjerbs in LGBDropTheT
ASD traits are more common in males and seen as a male thing, it conforms much readily to the gender stereotypes of maleness. I can see how a girl with ASD might think her thought patterns are more male than female, being female comes with a host of undesirable random demands that they cannot meet and so I could see how that could lead to dysphoria.
And I’ll admit, males with ASD/Aspergers are easier to deal with, men are allowed to be rude abrupt and cut to the chase. I had a female friend with it, and I had to do some internal recalibration for in my head before I worked out how to get along with her, my issue not hers, but every person she meets will do this to her.
What I don't understand about heterosexual transgenderism and no one's been able to answer. by lesbianbarbie in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
Oh sorry I see what you mean. There is a thesis in that one ...
You are right, off the top of my head I can think of numerous historical examples of men cross sex dressing but it is always associated with homosexuality, from Ancient Rome to the vikings. Women are more complex but also there are lots of lesbian examples - but there are other historical reasons for a heterosexual women to be perceived as a man, but never as a homosexual man ! They would have lost all the advantage they sought to gain.
I think it is part of the reason I find it so shocking - heterosexuals identifying as homosexuals is something that I have only really encountered in the last two years. As you say, if the stigma of homosexuality was enough to 100% prevent any heterosexual identifying as a cross gender homosexual it makes it less likely that it is an immutable characteristic. Unlike homosexuality and gender non conformity (even a trans type experience of it) which despite being punished by death kept cropping up again and again.
So presumably there is another driver, either purely cultural and of our time, or a driver which is so weak that you can be put off forming thet identity for all times prior to the last few years/decades.
[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
It is a bit terrifying that I can look back long enough to refute some of this stuff - I am still in my 30s, I hardly have - longitudinal view, but some ideas are just wrong.
As for the whole of human history - GNC people have always been there, as have men and women who cross dress, often associated with magic/shamism/religion and prostitution. People who feel they are more like the gender of the other sex are not new, the way our culture is dealing with it is. I am comfortable with the idea what some people are going to be happiest living a trans life, and that it is not a new thing. I am not comfortable with all the social messaging around this, because support for GNC people should not only be medical interventions, and should not be conflated with being LGB. I also think the conflation of fetishising women’s clothes being conflated with trans and therefore with being LGBT is unhelpful.
[–]Treeofthoughts 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun - 1 month ago (0 children)
There are some fascinating people on this sub.
Unprecedented levels of insufferable wokeness incoming by Chunkeeguy in LGBDropTheT
[–]Treeofthoughts 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I don’t know anything about this really. But portraying gay families is a good thing isn’t it ?
[–]Treeofthoughts 37 insightful - 2 fun37 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 2 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I am with you on this.
The counter arguement is that they existed but were hidden. But then so were we and our numbers have not exploded after legal equality.
There have always been straight male cross dressers. They used to hang around in gay bars together in the past. I never understand the motivations, but they were not there for gay rights, they were not gay and were often not afraid to make thier distain known. I think they have basically been rebranded, Eddie izzard used to say he was a cross dresser and not trans - now what is considered trans has increased from transsexual to include straight men who get a kick out of cross dressing.
This is the probelm with including a socially constructed category of people alongside immutable characteristics, thier category will expand and contract depending on the definition and the social pressures which push people into or out of the catagory.
So if it is fetishisation, in the very recent past it was not reasonable for a man to define himself by his fetish for dressing as a woman, or a woman to fetishise gay men. But the pressure on them to not do this is not as extreme.
I suppose rhe nearest parallel I can a draw is to the leather community, except they have not received sudden social acceptance, your work polices have not been rewritten to be more inclusive and non discriminatory against that fetish, and no political parties want to enhance protections for it.
Obviously the current trans umbrella covers many different things, and it is more complicated .
[–]Treeofthoughts 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
I suspect they mean the over representation of autistic people who identify as trans or are referred to transitioning services.
As in why does society make autistic people (particularly girls) feel like they are not thier sex. I think of gender as the enemy, and it is obvious why gender makes gay men and lesbians feel less like the sex they are, but it also appears to does it to people with autism. It think this shows how socially constructed it is - as LGB and autism are both immutable characteristics and have no relationship with each other, yet both groups get caught up in this for different reasons.
[–]Treeofthoughts 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun - 1 month ago* (0 children)
Queer is treated entirely differently to the N word and other slurs.
And I think there are a variety of reasons IMO:
it is tied into a philosophy - queer theory, and the proponents believe that othering us, and highlighting us as wierd odditities is good and assimilation is bad. The philosophy permits no category other than queer, and does not permit permenant categories such as LGB as thst allows us to explain who we are and achieve equality in society, the antithesis of queer theory. Because it is a belief system (unlike LGB) the believers are very vocal, think they are doing the right thing and try to generalise thier beliefs into all of us by calling us all queers.
we are not a community, so unlike race we do not get taught by our parents and grandparents about our oppression, each generation has to figure it out themselves. So there will be kids who have never experienced queer as a slur so are comfortable with it, where as if your parents had been beaten by people using the word and your grandparents imprisoned, you would be less quick to embrace it, and if you did you would be fully aware of its meaning to others. I have had convos online with younger gay men who simply deny that I can experience offense at the word.
internal an external homophobia. The rich and powerful do not reclaim slurs - no wealthy person self described as a “capitalistic pig”, you have to have internalised a least a little bit of that self hate to identify as a slur, and LGB are taught self hate on an industrial scale. We systematically taught we are lesser, broken, wierd etc, is it any wonder that some of us accept that ?