r/lgbt - The Heartbreak of Aphobia - and in pride month no less

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-05T19:49:14+00:00

I’d probably have picked it when I was younger because of how uncomfortable I was with being gay. Which is one of my issues with mixing it in with the LGB ...

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-05T11:34:04+00:00

What has Pride got to do with the fact that his girlfriend doesn’t fancy him?

Find a girl who thinks your hot ! it’s not like he is in some kind of tiny minority where expressing your sexuality is oppressed and dating is hard ... go live your best straight life dude !

Pride is now for heterosexuals ! I suppose from a Corporate point of view that’s a great thing. Bigger audience, more to sell to and with fewer controversial gay people it’s easier to onboard it.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-05T10:37:16+00:00

I’ll probably come back to this post, but mostly I agree with the rules.

Whilst I am not supportive of gender ideology and I am gender critical, there is a big difference between this and just hating random people who identify as trans. The test I kind of think of is - would an LGB detransitioner be comfortable here - that would be where I’d want to be. So I entirely agree with removing anything hateful.

There are few spaces to openly discuss being LGB and the effects of gender ideology on t however and this place offers that.

As for off topic - I am less bothered by that. If someone wants to post about their random hobby I don’t care. I may or may not read. There are a lot of very long time posters here, there is a level of community. If there were 100 000 users you would have to narrow the range. With a small number of users I feel you can be a little less narrow.

I am also generally interested by other view points so don’t mind some challenge from time to time. Including some POV which I will never every come around to (salty/oppressed reptillian for example).

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-05T08:25:47+00:00

I suppose I just don't understand.

If you are ace your rights are explicitly protected in law here, rape is a crime, coercion is a crime, marital rape was outlawed, forced marriage is illegal.

But not experiencing feelings of attraction does not make you same sex attracted, or pose similar challenges. Presumably most of those who do experience those feelings will be heterosexual, given the preponderance of heterosexuality...

Though I also get the impression a lot of gay people are "ace" because of the discomfort around their sexuality, making internalised homophobia a kind of sexual orientation is not healthy ...

The comments veer between "emotional connections are more valuable" ie: sexual attraction is bad, not really a key message of gay Pride, to a demand that LGBT people somehow support straight people who don't experience/are uncomfortable with sexuality. I do not agree that either of those things. Moralising about sexuality is what shames LGB people, and it is not my job to make straights happy!

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-05T08:12:18+00:00

I'd also like to know what other communities you recommend?

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-04T23:34:51+00:00

People are coming at this issue from many different view points and backgrounds, and some of them include or are even primarily motivated by homophobia.

Many straight women will be coming at it as a feminist issue, which makes them less likely to be homophobic additionally.

A lot of straight guys may be coming at this because they want to be able to discriminate against anyone who is not them, including the LGB. This is where the “unity” of LGBT has some level of validity.

I wouldn’t say I am against “transgenders”, but my interest is out of concern for LGB people and specially our youth, because I think gender ideology is homophobic and has the potential to cause damage.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-02T11:51:36+00:00

Hummm

Homophobia drives most of the biphobia and lesbophobia from general society.

However I do think that there are specific forms of discrimination against both bi people and lesbians, which are different to homophobia in general.

For example, if i hate lesbians and bi people, it is not homophobia which is driving it (as I am homosexual).

Some discrimination against lesbians is specific to them not dating men, rather than against all female homosexual activity - ie: a bisexual woman is great, a lesbian is a man hating ****. So I would say it is lesbophobia.

However in particular I think biphobia is a more often a bit of a mess. It is sometimes used wrongly, in that the bisexual person has suffered from homophobia, and it is wrongly called biophobia, it is also sometimes used wrongly to describe issues which affect bisexual people but are not actually biphobia, eg: whilst bi erasure is a thing, I am not sure it motivated by biphobia.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-06-02T11:47:03+00:00

Was that disagreement the reason? Like really?

I enjoy diverse opinions, I like to debate and talk with people i disagree with. I am unfortunately one of those devils advocates even when I DO agree ...

So is this the new place to chat about random LGB stuff !?

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T18:45:31+00:00

So, 1/3 of the rise in LGBT identification is from LGBT people, with the majority being from the B, but 2/3 are from political identification rather than any particular characteristic.

This appears to be true online certainly, though I have not really encountered it in real life very often yet.

It does explain the shifts in attitudes, if there are a lot of straight people who claim to be LGBT because of political alignment, rather than because they are same sex attracted. It would explain the weird ideological stances which are being demanded, the side lining of gay and lesbian people, and a lot of the backwards activism - not focussed on equality but on ideology.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T16:16:37+00:00

That’s a bit tenuous !

Just not conforming to the gendered expectations of a fictional world makes you LGBT ?

Having your genitals cut off in childhood to summon a demon makes you LGBT?

Having your mind destroyed by a time traveling Demi god in childhood to make you LGBT!

???

And honestly - did anyone ask hodor or Varis their sexual orientation, or do we just assume that impotence and special educational needs makes you asexual? That does not strike me as progressive at all!

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T09:50:35+00:00

Also true.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T08:46:47+00:00

To use some modern languague - being true to who you are is no bad thing!

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T07:40:16+00:00

I really need to speak to one of these guys to understand what is going on.

Is it internalised homophobia? Is it a current trendy fad? Is it that some gay guys are so gender non conforming they feel there is no space for them at all? I suspect it is a combination of the three.

I struggle to see it as a reflection of happiness, and I’ve tried to have these conversations online with some men like this. They won’t open up about it, which makes me worried it is a box of hurt. If someone ignorant of homosexuality has questions for me I will generally do my best to educate. It doesn’t seem to be the same on this topic, it’s accept it and shut up ... which is a very alien approach to me, ive always felt the gay rights approach has been if you understand me you will likely accept me.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-31T07:17:13+00:00

I have read through the thread:

So I think this is a genuine difference in how people experience their sexual orientation. I suspect I experience mine more similar to you, I am not only attracted to other men, I am actively Unattracted to women. But I am aware for some gay men that they simply lack positive attraction to women, so heterosexual sex is possible, hence the straight marriages etc. I don’t consider them bi because they only have same sex attraction, but don’t have that additional feeling that I experience towards the opposite sex (in a sexual context).

Having talked to some gay guys in that camp has helped me understand why I can feel very different to them. I couldn’t wrap my head around gay men who had had sex with women before, or been married for years and still said they were gay. But that’s because there was something different about how their sexuality worked. The feeling of wrongness about heterosexual sex is at least as strong as the feeling of rightness about gay sex for me, so it was difficult for me to understand gay men who didn’t experience that feeling at all!

However the pressure on women in relation to sex by society is different.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-30T17:16:26+00:00

Reddit peaked me.

I’d no idea up until that point!

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-30T15:39:09+00:00

She is bringing this into the mainstream big style. She has paid for it - but I suspect she will end up being vindicated and look back on as a leader.

Newspapers are no longer reporting her as some kind of devil, but as an example of the “other” (read predominant) view point.

I think I should write to her, I’ve never read her books but the support she is giving has made a huge difference.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-30T15:26:14+00:00

It annoys me that hen this happens, I’ve written to the BBC several times when they do this. Section 28 was a specific law it did not ban discussions of LGBTQIA2++. It was homosexuality it banned.

As for the bisexual bit for ffs!

Bisexuals experience homosexual and heterosexual desire, so yes it affected them, but it was only targeted at homosexuality, it didn’t ban positive discussions of their heterosexual desires.

And the poster saying all his attractions to either sex are always bisexual - how does that even work?!?

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T14:17:11+00:00

Is this even uncommon?

I wondered if I "should" have been a woman, was that what was "wrong" with me?

No I was just gay, but society didn't make any space for that.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T13:55:28+00:00

I have been following this quite closely. The QC is doing very well to getting the witnesses to say things which are not accepted in law and to demonstrate why taking the Stonewall position can constitute harassment towards lesbians.

He got the witness to compare lesbians (a protected class in law) to racist supporters of apartheid. Wow - well done on getting that to happen in front of an employment tribunal judge!

Can you imagine defending your work place as not discriminating against lesbians, but then confirming that you think being a lesbian is like being a white supremacist ... about a black lesbian!

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T13:48:27+00:00

Why would this happen?!

My straight mates know next to nothing about what being gay is like (I am intermittently blind sided by it!), they know significantly less about trans issues, they certainly don't know anything about the issues gender ideology presents for gay people!

I suppose this is a denial thing, that of course gay men would never express reluctance to perform cunnilingus ... I suspect the author of this comic has not talked to a lot of gay men before...

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T13:27:56+00:00

Yep, there are times when we should be considered separately for each other.

Those times are not infrequent. So I am onboard with the message, which I suspect is the opposite of the intended reaction ...

Diversity is difference, differences should be celebrated. We are not all the same.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T07:44:56+00:00

This one has been doing the rounds for a while. It made the papers because of it's "analysis".

Also bear in mind that this is dirty data, with the tiny number of L and G people in the sample, the T people may have significantly affected our rates of dating as measured.

Also note that this article positions sexual orientation as discriminatory repeatedly.

Also it seems surprised that some lesbians will date women, even if they identify as a trans man.

Treeofthoughts · 2022-05-27T07:24:54+00:00

I thought he was pretty even handed with his toxicity. He made jokes on the following topics, trans people, gay people, HIV, the holocaust, nazism, paedophiles, racism, dead babies, and multiple jokes about himself as a white, middle aged multimillionaire. He repeatedly made the point that there will be attempts to cancel him, and that this is the modern zeitgeist, he specifies that it is the trans jokes which will get him the most grief, he even points out that "of course" he supports trans rights.

Almost every minority group would have a valid cause to complain about his jokes, the guy systematically hit every sensitive button in his show deliberately, he is not an idiot, he is laughing at and inviting us to laugh at those who will take offence with him. When they do, it continues his joke at their expense, he knows what he was doing ... it was deliberate ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-26T18:23:57+00:00

My geography is terrible - but I roughly know where the oceans are !

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-26T13:58:27+00:00

Ok ok - I meant to get around to it, I will!

It’s tragic isn’t it - that we are back here ...

It’s not as bad and it’s not the same, but the parallels are striking ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-26T06:48:08+00:00

Good luck to Swiss LGB people ! I didn’t even know about this referendum - showing how poor my access to gay news is ...

It’s sad that he feels he needs to hide his face - but then I am here entirely anonymously abs not brave enough to do what he is doing. Gay rights has still not been a full success, we are still only allowed to say what other people let us say ...

It’s a bit of a pan European joke that Americans didn’t know anything about the rest of the world - but then again my partner was asked if he drove from Europe to the US on a visit ...

Ps. His accent ... wow.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-26T06:36:52+00:00

Yep that was one of my rules - they had to have come to terms and be out to a certain level, it’s a reasonable ask.

The magnet thing is something I didn’t get, but I had a friend who was much more obviously gay than I and he would get chatted up randomly in the street by guys not infrequently!

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-25T23:41:32+00:00

What!

Yes you will discriminated against across your life if people can tell or know you are gay/bi.

If you paint the bi flag on your face ... it’s not homophobia if people look at you funny. But you’re a student - experiment, and they will have seen “unique” looks a million times before ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-25T23:33:28+00:00

Hierarchy - you’re going to have to persuade straight men that they should limit what other straight men talk about, and they are not going to do that. They may even agree or think it’s funny.

When it’s a LGB or feminist issue the straight guys don’t know and don’t care. So tell them to shut down a bad LGB or female sub and they won’t question too hard - after all how onboard are they going to be with women and gays chatting about some obscure issue they don’t understand. Just delete it, it’s easier.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-25T23:22:50+00:00

Erm - he was willing to “try” to have sex with him. “Trying” to have sex with someone you are unable to be attracted to and so you think you might fail to manage sex?

Separate to all other issues this is a poor way to treat someone. This trans guy is not an experiment for people to play with, I’ve had approaches like this from semi straight guys and always found them pretty insulting - I’d like to see if I find gay sex revolting - jog on mate.

This is rubbish virtue signalling - I am open minded and accepting - I’d try to have sex with a trans person despite finding their body gross ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-25T23:05:05+00:00

I’d you come up with any ideas please make a post I’d be interested to hear what you think has happened.

I am also from 80s 90s cohort and was raised to think that you should not be limited by your sex and gender roles.

Which is why this regression has taken me my surprise - the roles have become more strict to the point that the young have invented genders.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T21:28:38+00:00

Having spent too much of my youth in gay bars this is not uncommon to in passing find a butch lesbian attractive due to mistaken sex identification. But the attraction evaporates when you realise you are profoundly sexually incompatible. Double homosexuality of the wrong types does not make heterosexuality.

I don’t get how they this this wouldn't happen because the other person has gender dysphoria that I can’t see and don’t know about.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:36:49+00:00

I believe in this particular case it means to be a straight man dating a woman who is uncomfortable with the fact that she is female ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:28:58+00:00

Everyone I’ve ever been attracted to enough to sleep with has had a dick - and I didn’t ask their pronouns or anything .

I must have a super power - maybe I’m super gay.

...

Occam’s razor - the simple explanation is most likely - sexual attraction is commonly related to sex vs I have super powers.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:18:54+00:00

They are so deeply uncomfortable arn’t they?

I think this is also a youth/zeitgeist thing. They want to sanitise sex and sexuality, it’s about hearts not parts ...

Grow up - give it a go - the parts matter as well as the hearts.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:14:58+00:00

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:13:11+00:00

Yes and no.

People who are sexually very conservative are probably also generally conservative, and so more likely to be homophobic.

However it is up to them to argue why their kinks shouldn’t be shamed in public, it’s got sweet FA to do with being LGB.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:07:04+00:00

They are clutching so so hard.

Isn’t same same sex attraction erasing gay people

No it’s the definition of gay people.

She is erasing gay people by saying we are all bisexual people.

No being homosexual is not homophobic, I mean honestly do we really need to explain how that’s an impossibility. Being female is not sexist, not being white is not racist. Dear lord.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T19:01:38+00:00

But it does seem to work out for most people in the end ! So certainly don’t give up.

My friend has finally shacked up with someone after over a decade of being single. It is definitely harder though - objectively so.

I suppose one of the things I see on social media is people wanting to meet someone. It’s just a shame it’s not easier to find and make those connections. I don’t know much about lesbian dating - it looks quite different to gay male dating :/ probably in a good way tbf...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T18:05:44+00:00

I have watched your YouTubes when you posted them. I am a little surprised you struggle for dates.

But as I say, you are not a similar market to a trans man, and electing not to have one nighters because you want something more serious is also not something to be shamed about.

I’ve been off the dating scene so long and I don’t know what it is like in the US !

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-24T18:00:32+00:00

It is the size of the dating pool - 2% is a small pool of homosexuals and whilst the bisexual pool is larger - they also have a much larger pool to fish in already!

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-22T15:46:40+00:00

No I’ve not.

But I’m a lot older than you and live in a non gay area and am married with straight and the occasional gay friend (all of whom are also GC to some degree).

A jealousy accusation literally makes no sense. You are not fishing in the same pond, they are females looking for males you are a male looking for a male ... not similar.

Also - I’m not being rude or denigrating gay men - but if you are gay you can find sex wherever, someone is always willing - it’s finding someone you want to have relations with that is the issue.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-22T15:35:08+00:00

This is one of the sad things about this area of debate. Straight people come with their world view and their preconceptions, and I suspect on the whole they are more easy to align with gender identity ideology than with the idea their gender non conforming children may be gay. I suspect it just makes more obvious sense to them that the effeminate gay boy or Butch gay girl is really the opposite sex, it is easier to match to their heterosexual world view.

Transitioning into heterosexuality makes the gender non conformity more like them - being gay makes them less like them.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-21T16:00:12+00:00

Woke version of the traditional homophobia.

Old school: you’re not a real man because your gay. Stop being gay and be a man.
Woke : Your probably not a man because you’re gay. Stop being gay by stopping being a man.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-21T15:40:10+00:00

Perhaps not the best worded OP.

But over all I agree.

It is fine to not know what you are. It’s fine to take time to figure out the truth about yourself, and it’s fine to be confused.

BUT - if you are simply refusing to acknowledge what and who you are I think you are doing a disservice to others who are like you.

It’s why I think being visible and out as a gay man is important. I think it helps the generation below to see that a normal life is possible, that we exist, that we are ok and by extension they are also ok. It also gives me the ability to tell others who I am and identify where inequality exists and combat it. Coming out and refusing to stay in the closet was considered a political statement - to demand equality rather than slinking through the shadows.

By refusing to confirm what you are when you know the truth, you are forever half in the closet, and that is not progress. That young gay people are playing with this would only show we have a long way to go before every gay person feels safe to be open.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-21T09:22:40+00:00

Er ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-21T09:17:33+00:00

So I flat out disagree with each point.

I am not a member of a community of unrelated letters.
Trans people are not intrinsically my siblings any more than the rest of humanity.
I do not believe tackling “transphobia” in the form of gender identity ideology will uplift gay people. It is homophobic and misogynistic.

My alternatives are:

I believe that I choose the communities I am a part of.
I believe trans people deserve respect on the basis of being fellow humans, but I share nothing additional with just because I am gay.
I believe fighting misogyny will uplift gay people as I think it is the root of homophobia.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-21T09:06:05+00:00

Male + female = heterosexual. There is nothing queer about that.

A heterosexual man attracted to a female does not stop stop experiencing heterosexual desire just because the female doesn’t like to be thought of as female. His sexual orientation is entirely unaffected by how she feels.

This is why we don’t believe that if a heterosexual man is attracted to a lesbian, his sexual orientation is changed to homosexual. The lesbians feelings of same sex attraction don’t affect his orientation. It is difficult to even imagine someone believing this, but it is exactly the same argument.

Ultimately how you feel inside does not alter what other people are.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-19T06:15:48+00:00

And some of us do so vocally and aggressively.

I understand we are desperate to ensure that no other group of people go through the state and socially sanctioned oppression we have faced - but this is just not the same issue, and by pretending it is we are undermining what has been achieved.

This fight is painfully not equality in action, it’s a new form of inequality.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T23:41:56+00:00

That is a shitty way to treat you.

I am however very impressed by how far you kept your cool. I would have lost it with my husband if I had been spoken to like that.

He is very clearly in a different place to you and has 0 intention of discussing it, he is only going to attempt to make you feel bad.

Conversations between couples can be like this though ... they are not always ideal, and you will know your relationship better than any of us.

However - I would need a follow up conversation about respect after something like this - partners do not always have to agree with each other - but a level of respect is required. In my opinion you did not receive this. You could equally as well attack his position as being homophobic sexist and enforcing gender norms which disadvantage women - you didn’t.

He was being unfair - but it happens. The issue is respect not that you disagree IMO, and that may be worth a separate discussion. He needs to “evolve” into accepting you have a right to opinions and that perhaps he does not know best. Bur after nearly 20 years my husband and I still have arguments abour who is right ...

I hate how much vitriol there is and how much this issue divided us.

I hope you are not too hurt and wish you luck with finding a good solution.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T10:38:53+00:00

They “identify as” straight, but I consider them bi given my knowledge of behaviour.

Identities can be inaccurate and don’t always reflect sexual orientation.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T10:28:10+00:00

Ha!

I don’t think I’ll float that idea past her, better to leave her in blissful ignorance!

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T07:53:19+00:00

That sounds about right.

The issue is it is on a case by case basis and depends on the question being asked and "sufficient understanding". So the first ruling basically says a pre/pubertal child is unlikely to understand what loss of sexual experience/fertility and living as modified trans individual entails, I am not sure this new ruling sets that idea aside - it just says it is up to the doctor and not the court to make that determination - which is the usual case in the UK.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T07:46:15+00:00

TBF it is very unusual for a court to have ruled on what doctors can and cannot do.

The fact that it is "unlikely" an under 16 can consent is a terrifying statement for a court to have already made to doctors trying to obtain consent from this group of patients.

Essentially it is not the courts job to decide what treatment doctors provide. But they have indicated that if they are asked in cases of doubt, that they are going to set a very high bar for obtaining appropriate consent.

It has also placed a huge spotlight on the issue. The service was failing, it was a "difficult" issue which the NHS had not dealt with. It has apparently had little data keeping, and was not robustly grounded in evidence, as well as not keeping a track of it's outcomes. I suspect all this will change, and to the benefit of children suffering dysphoria or various issues with gender, which is something I don't think anyone can object to. This is one of those times when this is an LGBT issue and not just an LGB issue - all of the children referred will benefit from an evidence based approach to helping them with their distress.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-18T07:36:02+00:00

These children have not had sex, and do not understand their own bodies.

In reality genitals are a spectrum too.

I mean seriously - I have never come across a vagnis or a penia, yes there are rare disorders of sexual differentiation, but that is not a spectrum.

And of course - remember its not ok to be gay!

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-17T17:36:08+00:00

I think I know the answer !

Is it our sexual orientation?

No? It’s because we are all bad and immoral people ? Oh - ok.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-17T17:31:33+00:00

Gender tells me so. Who am I to argue?

My mother still can’t figure out who does our ironing with no female in the house ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-17T16:53:40+00:00

I don’t even begin to understand.

If you can have sex with women - why come out as gay? It wasn’t all that much fun to go through.

I’d have a wife and children, the gendered roles benefit me - I’d be allowed to be a prick and she would be expected to tidy up after me.

I bet my fictional wife would let me get away with more than my real husband ...

Anyway enough day dreams.

Why not just date pansexual guys who will specifically like her for her mixed sex characteristics.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-17T10:38:34+00:00

Queerness needs to be taught - it doesn’t just happen like same sex attraction. It’s a political concept.

We do need to be good role models. But we do also need to be there for our youth. I just don’t know what to do on this front, I would love to be able to offer so much more support than I had, but I can’t find things which don’t also promote gender identity ideology or queer theory. It’s so sad that funding LGB issues have become indivisible from funding homophobia.

I am hoping the LGB alliance will make some steps towards offering more support, they have mentioned this before.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-17T10:03:03+00:00

I am guessing this is your article.

It is very powerful, but also depressing.

I am only just seeing this stuff creep into real life as I am so very detached from any “community”. But my most woke friend asked me if I could be sexually attracted to women and declared it sad I was not - a question I have not been asked for nearly 20 years as people used to understand that was intrusive and homophobic.

I am sorry this has happened to what you built and worked for.

Once straight people are in our spaces it’s natural they will bring their entitlement and privilege with them, why should they listen to gay and lesbian people - they already know we are marginalised, how dare we push back or have boundaries.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T23:09:53+00:00

Er - perhaps because they are the polar opposites?

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T23:05:59+00:00

In the Uk (where this is from) obtaining sex by deception - including lying about your sex is a crime.

I suspect a gender recognition cert would get you out of it possibly, but without you are breaking the law. There is president with oral sex too.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T23:02:41+00:00

I’ve started saying LGB and only adding a “and T” when it is a relevant issue, ir rarely is, there is not a great deal of cross over oddly enough.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T23:01:29+00:00

I doubt it, but it’s not disrespectful to be proud of your heritage.

And why wouldn’t I celebrate being gay? We celebrate a lot of things about ourselves ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T05:19:46+00:00

Most of that makes sense and it seems most askgaybros users think that being non binary is an attention seeking behaviour which is cementing gender stereotypes which a lot of gay men have already rejected. It’s one of my issues with it - I married a man I have already broken the gender rules, I don’t need to formally announce it as a separate “identity” and make everyone fall over their words on a day to day basis.

The bisexuals seem much more open to it which makes some sense, but then most of them won’t be dating the same sex in the long run for the various entirely valid reasons.

I’m not - as a gay man I want to be with another gay man who accepts themselves as such. I went through so much to figure out who I am and what I want so in this regard there’s not much flexibility - I have found it is often the same for a lot of gay men in my generation (I’m in my early 20s).

I suspect this is every generation of gay men - it is certainly my experience of my generation of gay men.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-16T05:00:29+00:00

Which is why Saint Patrick’s day is not celebrated in the USA ...

You should be able to be proud and open with your background and heritage (including being gay), without it being an issue.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-15T13:38:37+00:00

Though in principal homosexual only, lesbian only, gay only, bisexual only and trans only organisations are all entirely reasonable ways to politically organise.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-15T13:36:54+00:00

I don’t agree there is a great deal of difference.

Would a Stars and Stripes be unreasonable, could you bring in a flag of your home country if you were not born in the USA?

Perhaps all these things are banned in the US in which case it’s fair to not allow anything. But you would have to explain to me why some are ok and others are not.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-15T03:41:29+00:00

I’ve always been on the science side of academic studies so how you can simply make up none evidence based ideas about the world as an academic career boggles my mind!

Lesbian and gay studies sounds like the study of lesbian and gay people. Queer studies is more of a post modern branch of philosophy as far as I can tell.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-15T03:39:01+00:00

This is true, I’ve heard straight women be openly disparaging to me about it.

I have never known any openly bi men. I know 6 bi women, all are married to men, and it does not appear to be a significant issue that I am aware of.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:58:18+00:00

Where is the subtle homophobia, I only see the overt kind.

A huge chunk of “GC” people are not critical of gender they just want to ensure that 100% congruence between sex and gender. And that includes everyone being heterosexual.

And I totally disagree that gay teachers should be required to be closeted whilst at work.

Talking about my sexual orientation occurs frequently and entirely naturally on a day to day basis. My husband is the most important thing in my life, I’ll not censor him out of my thoughts and conversation for the benefit of others. Straight people do not do this. Why should I.

I am surprised how many people here feel we should be required to act in a totally different manner to straights, I’m not accepting a second class status. I pay the same taxes as everyone else I get the same treatment.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:45:09+00:00

I do not see my inability to be a father as a “cis gay privilege”, I find it one of the most difficult aspects of being a gay man, and I’m not sure I will ever experience that as anything other than loss, certainly not a privilege.

Lying about a defining minority experience you have never had to charade as if you are a member of that group is just wrong.

Flamboyant gay men get a vast amount of stick, being the highest risk portion of the highest risk group for hate crimes. I literally watch the room when one walks in. But then I would not expect a heterosexual woman to have a good insight into the dangers of being a gay man.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:36:44+00:00

That’s really sad to read - They have discovered their sexual orientation is sex based and not gender based, but have now changed their gender on the basis that that is the foundation of sexuality.

Two straight men apparently do not enjoy sex together much.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:30:22+00:00

Ah Julie bindle.

I disagree with her more frequently than I agree with her and have done since I was a teenager.

However she is a big hitter and unapologetically lesbian. She is known to be controversial, but she has weight.

I agree there is a risk in including her, I find her arguments about homosexuality in particular to be very wrong for the vast majority of gay people. If I’d just picked homosexuality to piss off my parents like she suggests, then I see no particular reason why society should be altered to accommodate me.

I get why she is included. I suppose I am used to rolling my eyes at seeing an article by her - but never the less I do read her and consider what she says.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:23:28+00:00

So precisely why doesn’t it make them bi?

He provides no attempt to explain why it’s not bisexuality other than stating it is not.

As an aside why is it only women who are confused?

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-14T22:17:50+00:00

I understand why she has done it. We all have jobs and need to make money.

What I can’t fathom is why it had any impact. It is a bizarre anti science view of the world. Why has it been so widely accepted by LGB people in particular when it harms us?

Is it because it validates GNC in a quasi mystical way, is it because we are more likely to be wooley headed. Is it because it is a philosophy/religion and it’s kind of seen as the one for LGB people? Is it simply that it is an “academic” interpretation of being LGB so therefore seen as wise by our unelected self appointed LGBT leaders.

I just don’t understand. Bur at least on twitter there definitely seems to be a growing gay and lesbian voice against it ..

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-12T05:34:43+00:00

For some it is a pick up and play identity smorgasbord. Try out asexuality then NB, then gender queer, then eschew all labels, then go meet your heterosexual partner get married, have kids and forget the whole thing. So it’s no surprise they think we are the same, and don’t get our stubborn insistence on not being politically correct with a fundamental part of what we are. I’ve noticed a definite “ it’s ok to be gay/lesbian, so long as you do it in a way I morally approve of” theme, very much like the former Christian homophobia, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Yiu can be gay and have a gay identity too, but you can definitely be gay and not.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-11T06:00:29+00:00

This is more complex as she is advertising BDSM services - sexual fetishes and sexual orientation are not the same things.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-11T05:52:55+00:00

Oh Reddit - and it’s trolls

If I thought I was sexually attracted to vaginas do you know where I would post a discussion about it - r/askgaybros I mean what better group of men to receive sound advice about sex with women from.

This is to wind gay men up. It might be something trying to “prove” a trans or queer theory point, or a bored gay man who wants to wind up the rest of us (we never do that to each other!).

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-11T05:42:50+00:00

This is part of an erasing theme, there are right and wrong ways to be gay.

I think being gay is a characteristic - I only experience sexual desire for my own sex. My homosexuality / same sex attraction is what makes me gay.

It’s now common to think it is an “identity” to bring it in line with gender identity.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T20:10:09+00:00

Male lusts after female. Heterosexual desire. It will never be gay.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T20:03:51+00:00

To even suggest that same sex attracted people are not welcome in pride shows how profoundly little they understand about the function of GAY pride.

Shame is not a part of pride.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T19:49:55+00:00

That is exactly where my mind went too ...

I suspect I am still more familiar with the decades of christian homophobia and so read Christian themes into the woke version.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T09:19:56+00:00

I get the impression that compulsory heterosexuality is a much greater pressure for lesbians - and I suspect also tied into all sorts of ideas about female sexuality which are at best poorly informed.

I feel I was in the earlier generations where it was possible to be gay as a teen, I came out over 20 years ago now. But the further back you go the less possible it would be. There will always have been some “gold stars”, and I suspect regardless of the social pressure I would have been one. There was a bbc article on a North Korean defector where this was the case, he was being medically treated as he was incapable of having sex with his wife as they don’t have the concept of homosexuality they didn’t know what was wrong with him ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T05:48:44+00:00

He doesn’t realise he is on the anti vaxxer side does he ...

Because no science does not show that males are females and vice versa. He must have noticed how few of his male friends have given birth and the challenges of same sex couples procreating ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T05:45:06+00:00

Yeah I didn’t get this - I assumed she was calling another trans man a cis gay as a way to humiliate? As gay men generally don’t mind being called gay men ... but then heterosexual trans men want to be seen as gay men, and a bi guy would presumably just be a bit irritated if she kept calling him gay.

I couldn’t figure it out at all.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-10T05:39:09+00:00

It’s another little clue that LGB and gender identity ideology do not go together. Transition is fine, being seen as gay though, that’s bad.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T21:31:00+00:00

Doesn’t he just need a hug and a really good friend to decompress to?

His thoughts seem very unformed and confused.

Whilst gender primarily oppresses women it is still hurting guys like this, even down to his micro panic about being seen as gay.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T21:25:16+00:00

It will simply be stupidity, good intentions gone horribly wrong.

So much of the equalities and diversity stuff which is going on In the UK is poorly thought out, and can easily be divisive and have the opposite outcome.

I mean seriously if your beating someone in pride themed riot gear, they are meant to take away a positive message about us??

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T14:55:29+00:00

Mixed feelings again.

The police are there to protect everyone, in theory.

However painting items of violence in pride colours - that would be a no from me.

Pride lanyard - ok - pride hand gun - not ok.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T14:52:51+00:00

Ah! I thought I had probably understood you entirely backwards !!

I am in a first world country, though it was not anywhere near as ok to be gay then as now, but so it mirrors my experience. I would be interested elsewhere - I suspect higher rates but ... I suspect there would also be sexless marriages and long term bachelors - An impossible study as they wouldn’t be able to identify themselves in order to be counted. I’m profoundly glad not to have to faced that choice in my life.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T11:52:05+00:00

Dead link.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T09:35:43+00:00

Two bar magnets are attracted to each other. A non man attracted to a non man - they are lesbians.

It’s interesting that the more inclusive language dehumanises women.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T08:52:29+00:00

This has made my day.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-09T04:24:01+00:00

I may be confused by your point : You think most gay men are in fact bisexual and the the reason they don’t sleep with women is they are uncertain what to do?

As for the gold star thing, this study suggests that 61% of gay men have never had sex with a woman: https://contexts.org/blog/sexual-orientation-versus-behavior-different-for-men-and-women/

This would mirror my experience. I do know gay men who have had sex with women - but they are a minority.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-08T20:01:05+00:00

This one got me thinking. Why is it important to this man that he is seen as gay.

Is this a sunk cost fallacy? that he Kinsey 5 so “nearly” entirely gay - he has gone through coming out, faced the social consequences, rebuilt his idea of himself as a gay man and then discovered - that’s not entirely true ... but rather then go through that process again and more accurately define as bi - he is going to defend his old and inappropriate label, and demand everyone else change their idea of what gay is to match what he wants it to be?

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-08T19:43:13+00:00

He makes a false equivalence -

True: Attraction is partly innate and partly acquired. Sexual orientation is the innate part.
false: Gay men are all inexperienced bisexuals - because he is.

“Just try it, you might like it” - heard that before. I mean really - why is it important to this bisexual chap that gay men try Cunnilingus ...

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-08T18:30:26+00:00

This man is bisexual or heterosexual. That is not a bad thing and he should consider working on becoming comfortable with who he is. This sounds like I mean it as satire- I don’t - he is not gay, and this makes him uncomfortable. It is his issue to accept himself, not my issue to accept he is gay when he is not.

It would not be fair of me to demand everyone consider me to be straight despite my same sex relationship, it is not fair of him to expect me to accept he is gay when he is has chosen a heterosexual relationship.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-08T10:47:39+00:00

Yes that is an issue where GNC people are labelled. I can see it as a possibility that a feminine young boy could be brought up to accept other people’s perceptions of his sexual orientation. But I still struggle with the idea - that if you had only sexual feelings for women or for no one at all you would accept that label. Perhaps if is just my perspective having grown up at a different time.

However I think it’s telling that the majority of asexual people seem to have some level of same sex attraction - which only -5% of them should have - unless of course internalised homophobia is a factor ...

So I have mixed feelings, I think the label rarely accurate and how often it is an expression of discomfort with sexual orientation.

Treeofthoughts · 2021-09-08T07:33:19+00:00

Thank you for the links.

I suspect quite a lot more will come out over the coming months. Including the national review.

It seems that we have been failing children in the UK who have these feelings for a prolonged time.

Treeofthoughts