"If I tell you you're transphobic, then you are." This person seemed to be genuinely apologizing and it wasn't enough. Nothing is ever enough. by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 18 insightful - 16 fun18 insightful - 15 fun19 insightful - 16 fun -  (0 children)

"they threw up, cried, and had to take a nap"

Kinda sounds like a cat but without the fluffiness to take the edge off.

WITS Ireland is bashing "Invisible Woman" for not being "inclusive" of biological males by MezozoicGay in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 16 insightful - 14 fun16 insightful - 13 fun17 insightful - 14 fun -  (0 children)

That medium article complains that Criado Perez mentions police uniforms being dangerous because they don't fit well over large breasts, and that this is exclusionary and transphobic. I am not a police woman, and even if I were, I don't have a large bust. I have invented a new term, small-bust-exclusionary-researcher-feminist, and I now intend to slander Criado Perez for her exclusionary work. SBERF! Also, NPERF! (Non-policewoman-exlusionary-researcher-feminist). Criado Perez needs to think specifically about me before she researches anything. /s

People who menstruate of saidit, make sure your sexual partner has a trash can in the bathroom and soap. You know, normal bathroom things by SteppenSlut in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 31 insightful - 14 fun31 insightful - 13 fun32 insightful - 14 fun -  (0 children)

Be a good host. Have snacks and tampons ready for your women guests. Also, like feminism, soap is for everybody.

r/transgender talks about potential rugby ban, suggests trans women are weaker than cis women by RadioSilence in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 29 insightful - 14 fun29 insightful - 13 fun30 insightful - 14 fun -  (0 children)

To the commenter who says they struggle to open jars after two years on HRT: get thee to a gym and get thine hands upon the iron. Verily, the deadlift can purge thy piteous weakness. Sure, having thin, unmuscled hands and forearms may be fashionable, but nothing is more important than rapid access to pickles.

Margaret Atwood stanning how sex doesn't really matter by WrongToy in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 36 insightful - 13 fun36 insightful - 12 fun37 insightful - 13 fun -  (0 children)

The Scientific American article says "New evidence suggests that the brain consists of a “mosaic” of cell types, some more yin, others further along the yang scale."

Ah yes, the science of yin and yang cells.

TRAs were angry when r/gendercritical existed. Now they're mad s/gendercritical exists. It's almost like banning subs doesn't delete people from existence by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 38 insightful - 12 fun38 insightful - 11 fun39 insightful - 12 fun -  (0 children)

I wish I could tell my TRA acquaintances that they converted me. To radical feminism.

BBC officially drops Mermaids by Terfenclaw in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 38 insightful - 11 fun38 insightful - 10 fun39 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen that. It's so friggin gross. Where does identifying with a barbie come from, I wonder? Can't be society. Must be the soul.

I had two busy days - successfully peaking others and terfing merrily by braveandstunning in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 10 fun9 insightful - 9 fun10 insightful - 10 fun -  (0 children)

Are ye not wee terven beasties?

I've got an idea for a strategy for dealing with required "gender diversity" training at work. by Oof_Too_Humid in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 9 fun8 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

You could always identify as a trans women.

"If I tell you you're transphobic, then you are." This person seemed to be genuinely apologizing and it wasn't enough. Nothing is ever enough. by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 14 insightful - 9 fun14 insightful - 8 fun15 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

Actually, it's "mit ihr". How dare you misgrammar them /s

Men's Health magazine. How to choke a woman. I don't want to live on this planet. by our_team_is_winning in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 21 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 7 fun22 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I'm actually happy to leave 'choke on dick' comments to the lovely trans rights activists. It seems to be a core part of their gender performance, and I wouldn't want to appropriate that.

If we used TRA logic on the definition of mammal... by Realwoman in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 8 fun8 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

also, behold the platypus:

the platypus lays eggs but is a mammal

egg layers can be mammals

so birds are mammals, too

i, too, can deconstruct categories with postmodern magic

PIV SEX/INTERCOURSE IS BAD FOR WOMEN by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I think we should lay eggs, though. Small ones that we can leave under a heat lamp.

Bizarre doublethink going on in r/JKRowling by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Just in: "Accusing the mod team of making "accusing the mod team of "banning people for supporting JKR"" a warnable offence", is now a warnable offence."

Study on The Psychology of Gender Critical Feminism by GenderCriticalStudy in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 21 insightful - 6 fun21 insightful - 5 fun22 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Results: GC feminists are suspicious as fuck, and rightly so.

Seriously - 'The TERF Industrial Complex' by Chunkeeguy in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Where does the 'industrial' come in? Do we have factories? Do the factories produce facticities?

Apparently not stripping in front of TIMs is "transphobic". I never thought that they'd come up with something more rapey than the "cotton ceiling", but here we are. by justradfemthings in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 81 insightful - 6 fun81 insightful - 5 fun82 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Newspeak for "women are evil for refusing to get naked with men".

Ridiculous Cosmo article: 12 Best Makeup Products That Won't Smudge or Smear Under Your Face Mask by bluetinfoilhat in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 20 insightful - 6 fun20 insightful - 5 fun21 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

You know what doesn't smudge under a mask? Resting radfem face.

An actual nursing student says… by Chunkeeguy in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Women have multiple penises. The nose, for example, is a penis for breathing. We have ten hand penises for grasping, and as many foot penises for balancing.

'Improve cervical screening for transgender people, says expert' - THIS INSANITY HAS TO STOP by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

So... people changed their legal-medical-fiction-sex to male and stopped receiving medical reminders for females. So they pretended they were males and doctors took them seriously and stopped sending them reminders for females. So now doctors should know better--they should know to send reminders to some female men. But wait, saying that only females get cervical cancer is exclusionary, and punching down! So... doctors should know that some male men have cervices. But they should know which male men have cervices as opposed to the others who don't. If only there were a way to distinguish male men and female women with cervices from male men and female women without them! If only we had a word for that! Alas, we shall simply have to send cervical cancer screening reminders to everyone, and trust that cervix-less male men and female women will know not to book appointments in response.

We've reached peak crazy. by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 24 insightful - 5 fun24 insightful - 4 fun25 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

That word doesn't mean what you think it means: certainty, vagina, imbibe, valid, substantiated, shamed, discrimination, objectifying.

GC: If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex? by Nohope in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. At any moment in which you are not conceiving, gestating, delivering or lactacting, you are sexless. Sexism and misogyny will not apply to you. Your risk of domestic and sexual violence at the hands of men will be lowered to the average. Also, men will not talk over you. /s

"Assigned __ at birth" is a bizarre and goofy expression that should never be used by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I was wrongfully mis-assigned the wrong height at puberty.

"Assigned __ at birth" is a bizarre and goofy expression that should never be used by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Wowwwww that's a really loose, inaccurate and terrifying definition of privilege that I think translates roughly as 'I want what you have, it's not fair, this is your fault'

"I wonder how many gay people are actually transgender" but this isn't conversion therapy at all by readingotter in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 21 insightful - 4 fun21 insightful - 3 fun22 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Wouldn't that make, like, all feminists trans men? Shit, we could start a movement.

So the guardian is cutting jobs and "dying" and rad fems are being blamed? What? by inneedofspace in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 28 insightful - 4 fun28 insightful - 3 fun29 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, what a coincidence. I withdrew my support for them after seeing their lovely 'neutral' coverage of JKRowling. I told them to shove it.

We are just like mass shooters apparently...? by Fortiquen in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Welp, if more sexist men keep calling themselves feminists, and more of us cease to become feminists because we don't 'understand what feminism is about' (according to TRAs), maybe the statistical risk of violence posed by feminists will in fact go up. But as things stand, I don't think the war will start any time soon. Unless you count murder by words, in which case I think JK's reign of terror has just started.

My friend said "radfems wanting to abolish gender is equivalent to a white ethnostate." by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

He's fixed on the label terf in an us vs them/paladins vs nazis fantasy. Maybe just send him terf stuff but don't say it's terf, just say it's feminist stuff and ask what he thinks.

"Vanilla shame" - yet another byproduct of liberal feminism? by vitunrotta in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 18 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Nothing wrong with just liking sex and not needing to make it into an elaborate, artificial performance with hierarchical role play that reproduces your internalised misogyny. Kink isn't spicy. It's an artificial flavour enhancer for people who burnt out their taste receptors with porn.

Biden's first move in office by PassionateIntensity in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I hate Biden, too. But the republicans are working hard to sabotage climate action and to keep big money in politics. I'm not American, but I'd really love it if you all would vote Trump out then argue this with Non-Trump when he's in office.

Masschusetts Bail Fund doubling down in new statement, disregards public safety, will free dangerous people because they are "non-judgmental" by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

If you're non judgmental you can't judge me for being judgemental. Come on. If you're going to do moral relativism do it all the way. Don't kink-shame my moral absolutism /s

Masschusetts Bail Fund doubling down in new statement, disregards public safety, will free dangerous people because they are "non-judgmental" by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Erm. 6.8% of tens of thousands is quite a lot of people. Help me math here. Is it, like 680s of people?

And why the fuck is a twice-convicted rapist not locked up permanently? Can we please just free all the non-violent people who are in for stupid marijuana and traffic charges and throw the rapists in a deep well?

WITS Ireland is bashing "Invisible Woman" for not being "inclusive" of biological males by MezozoicGay in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder if trans women have 'feminine' patterns of work and transport. Do they do the majority of care work in their families? Either way, I didn't throw the book out the window when it looked at issues that I personally don't face but other women do.

The state of trans discourse is a dystopic, capitalistic nightmare that places personal sense of identity over all else, including physical reality and historically oppressed classes. by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Ugh. Placing personal identity over structural analyses of injustice isn't radical. Somebody needs to confiscate that word from them and ask them to sit in the corner and think about what they're doing.

Can muslim women be GC feminist too? by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 61 insightful - 3 fun61 insightful - 2 fun62 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

No one is asking you to ask for forgiveness, and there is no atheism requirement. You are welcome.

We will not refrain from critiquing misogynistic and sexist practices wherever we find them. You've probably noticed that much of our critique is focused on western culture and trans rights activism. Still. Sometimes we talk about other cultures and practices. Do you believe that this critique constitutes hate and vitriol, or are you referring to something else when you mention hate and vitriol?

Radical feminists are unlikely to agree that any enactment of gender norms is entirely 'free'. One of the main jobs of our feminist critique is to analyse the ways in which culture, violence, economics and politics result in systematic reductions in our physical and mental freedom. Not all GCs are radical feminists. However, there is significant overlap. You are likely to encounter people here who are deeply sceptical of any claim that we truly, freely engage in feminine gender norms that systematically disadvantage us, or that the approval and nice feelings we get from conforming with gender norms constitute any form of 'power'. That goes for western femininity, too, not just for women practicing Islam.

You can ignore any conversation or thread that is uncomfortable for you. You do not need to engage with any specific person. You can participate as much or as little as you want, in whatever topics interest you. Welcome and I hope you find something of value here.

Oh look, it's "black lives matter is racist against white people", but about men. Again. Weird. by GrendelsScaryMom in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Women are trans women!

.../s

TERFs, I see TERFs everywhere... by Lyssa in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

My friend brought up JKRowling the so-called TERF in a conversation, and I said "well, actually..." and told her what I thought. Surprise, she agreed with me. JKR is a witty, compassionate, articulate queen and the people attacking her will regret drawing attention to their viciousness and illogic.

"Why Won't Woke Boys Pay For Sex?" - A fascinating look into the minds of two TiM sex workers by SeasideLimbs in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think he should pay them, though. If sex is between two people, they should both pay. Right? That's how it works, right?

Is there anything we can do to build on J K Rowling going public? by spinningIntelligence in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I'm going to become 'that feminist' who complains about everything :P

Discussion- Reclaiming T*RF by RuminatingOracle in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

adjective: merven

Margaret Atwood is a fucking disappointment by FuriousPenguin in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The tails would be extreme glowering with explosions and deadly swordfights on stilts(!) on one side, and gentle cooing with smelling salts, glittery armadillo heels, and competetive inability to read maps(!) on the other!

Just kidding. Yes, people who say sex is a continuum tend to avoid saying exactly what kind of distribution there is because that would give up the game. Hint: it's not a bell curve.

GC: Scientists say sex is a spectrum, even an illusory man-made social construct by Fastandthecurious in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do you bring this level of radical scepticism to all categories, or just male and female? I propose to you that the world is a blob with patches of different properties, and that trying to distinguish, group and label different areas of the blob is always social construction. It's social construction to distinguish yourself from the surrounding environment (where does the air begin and end? Inside your lungs? Outside your mouth?). To distinguish air from water (what if the air is humid? What if the water has bubbles in?). To distinguish cake from bread (What is even banana bread??? Fruit bread? Fruit cake?). All human-invented categories that impose order on the single-item, the blob universe.

That said, certain categories have incredible explanatory and predictive power. For example, even though it's somewhat arbitrary where we place the boundary of "beach" and "ocean" the likelihood of being bitten by a shark is rather higher when the human is in one of these socially constructed spaces. Likewise the category MALE can predict with astonishing accuracy who is most likely to commit violent sexual crimes against other humans, for example.

It's funny how the kind of people who treat the categories of male and female with radical scepticism treat all other categories as common sense, and base their behaviour on them (which of course, is necessary for any sensible interactions with the world). It might be instructive for you to look at whose interests this highly specific deconstructionism serves.

GC: If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex? by Nohope in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We all (even dogs, apparently) are laser sharp at detecting men and women, except youngsters who have lost this ability due to exposure to postmodern deconstruction.

GC: With the potential for future advancements in medical technology, what does this mean for the immutability of biological sex? by transwoman in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ehhh. I think female and male are types created by nature, not just collections of features. A female is a creature whose body is organised around the reproductive role of conception, gestation, delivery. You might as well ask whether we can surgically construct a cat if we get all the cat features right.

Sick of Reddit misogyny? Are you Ovarit? Come join us at our permanent new home for Gender Critical women! PM me for an invite code! by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yay! It looks so shiny and new I'm afraid to post.

As transgender rights debate spills into sports, fights for the right to compete by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Like feminism. Might want to know what it's for before we completely retool it using gender identity.

As transgender rights debate spills into sports, fights for the right to compete by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 27 insightful - 2 fun27 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, it always helps to look at the reasons why women might need something separate. Sometimes it's about bodies, sometimes it's about socialisation, sometimes it's about class. Sometimes it's about all of those together. When transgendered males say they need or deserve access to women's spaces, because they're "women", they're using a new definition of "womanhood" that is totally incapable of justifying those spaces in the first place. They hope you won't notice the mix up, though.

As transgender rights debate spills into sports, fights for the right to compete by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 51 insightful - 2 fun51 insightful - 1 fun52 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I like how they frame it as a ban of people competing in the category 'consistent with their gender identity' rather than 'inconsistent with their sex'.

There are no 'gender identity' categories in sports. Otherwise they'd need to check the gender identities of everyone competing. And I guess we GC types wouldn't be allowed to compete at all, since many of us deny having gender identities at all.

"Assigned __ at birth" is a bizarre and goofy expression that should never be used by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Right? They just want to make natal sex seem arbitrary, like a mistake, so that their chosen sex has more weight.

Really sick of porn/sex work apologizers by PurpleAmathea in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I completely agree. Their moral analyses of prostitution are completely individualistic and focused on 'free choice'--they're blind to power, to systematic oppression, they refuse to analyse structures, and they prioritise negative freedom (not being prevented from doing what they want) over every other value. They welcome market values into every arena of life, including the female body. Because they're relatively privileged, they don't perceive being 'positioned' themselves by societal structures, so they have little interest in how those structures constrain others even more cruelly. They have utterly betrayed and abandoned other women and children. I am so angry at them.

Apparently not stripping in front of TIMs is "transphobic". I never thought that they'd come up with something more rapey than the "cotton ceiling", but here we are. by justradfemthings in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like they're always trying to make it a crime when we talk about their bad behaviour. What can we do except keep talking?

I know you guys probably aren’t keen on the Left anymore, but believe me, as a commie this trans idpol crap is depressing by JoeDzhugashvili in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I feel like both the left and right focus a lot on individuals, choice, and freedom, but not on power, structures, and class. They're powerblind, to my intense and lasting disappointment.

Netflix is promoting transing kids. Really. Look: by EvaWumben in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

But... left handed people are demonstrably left handed.

Oh look, it's "black lives matter is racist against white people", but about men. Again. Weird. by GrendelsScaryMom in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 43 insightful - 2 fun43 insightful - 1 fun44 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

There's a difference between segregation and separatism. Segregation is forced on a subordinated group in order to maintain their subordinate social status. Separatism (whether it's having our own spaces or our own theory or even disaggregated data about us) is an incredibly important tool for advancing the perspectives, interests and needs of a systematically disadvantaged group that would otherwise be disappeared and neglected.

Thanks for coming to my saidit comment.

I’m so sick of unequal comparisons between women and men on reddit by Confuzzled in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 45 insightful - 2 fun45 insightful - 1 fun46 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think normative masculinity can be brutal and crushing. The difference is that when you cave in to the gender policing and perform masculinity correctly, you get significant benefits despite the strain of conformity and the fear of policing. With femininity, the strain and the policing are still there, but the reward you get for compliance is lower status and the rather dubious 'power' of being attractive and wanted. To say it's 'just as bad' is to really look at those two things out of context. Society never stops finding ways to make women's disadvantage invisible again.

So Sick of The Term "Sex Work" - a good post from our Reddit community that I wanted to share. by [deleted] in antipornography

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

First comment is good: "Speaking positively of prostitution only serves to further the exploitation of the larger, teenage, trafficked majority. Don't step on their carcasses to give your anecdote."

They are still trying to delete/silence us, right here on Saidit. by Lilith_Fair in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Hello! I am a books-and-staring-out-the-window-at-birds-gendered-person who doesn't understand the internet. What is an 'air gap'? Is safari safe? Is firefox better? What can people know about me if I visit this site on a laptop without sharing my email? What if I read forbidden feminist works on medium, quillette, unherd, 4W and feminist current? What is VPN and do I need it? What is a cloud server and do I have one? Do they already know who I am if I used my email for reddit?

I know that's a lot of questions. Thank you in advance for any and all answers.

After taking over the lesbian subs on reddit the TRAs are going after the gay guy subs now. by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Goddess preserve. Does it bother anyone else that these people think human surgeons are creators akin in skill and competence to nature itself?

To all of you trans ladies out there by AdmiralPangolin in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

So.... it sounds like validation is just making supportive, affirmative noises at someone?

To all of you trans ladies out there by AdmiralPangolin in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't even know what it means. Is it, like, saying someone is right? Or that they're okay? Is it just saying 'yes' to someone?

Both: What do you hate about your natal sex/gender? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Sex: being weaker and having trouble getting bench gainz, obviously.

Gender: men talking over me, men thinking I'm stupid because they didn't let me speak, and me knowing being sexually assaulted is always a possibility. So uh, I don't hate my gender, I hate theirs.

A gender critical feminist philosopher describes her hostile environment by dandeliondynasty in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I know. I really appreciated her efforts to talk about how to keep trans and gender non conforming people safe. But a bunch of extremists have decided that the danger and difficulty of being trans is located in 'obstacles to self expression' and people being unsupportive or critical about one's identity, not in, you know, actual violence, discrimination and harassment in real life by actual bigots. You know, there's a really similar parallel with the 'sex work is work' people, namely, the idea that the danger and difficulty in prostitution comes from 'stigma' (by feminists, again) or criminalisation, not from, you know, exploitative and violent men. Violent men kinda get disappeared or treated like a force of nature that we exacerbate with our analyses and critiques. So odd.

TRAs know Rowling has researched both sides extensively and wonder why she is still gender critical by RoundFrog in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Me too. "Don't read this it's triggering*. I read it already and it's transphobic+. Read Julia Serano instead."

*a coherent challenge to your world view

+a coherent challenge to your world view

TRAs know Rowling has researched both sides extensively and wonder why she is still gender critical by RoundFrog in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Tautologywomen is beautiful :D

Open Letter Endorsing Free Speech Sparks Civil War Over Trans Issues at Liberal Website 'Vox' by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wish I could say I don't feel safe whenever people spout sexist bullshit or cancelly shit, but that wouldn't work. I actually have to argue for things. Pity. Do you think if I stopped merely being a woman and started identifying as one, people would take me more seriously? "I identify as a woman and a cancelled person, and you saying this letter makes you feel unsafe, makes me feel unsafe".

PIV SEX/INTERCOURSE IS BAD FOR WOMEN by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They should be born tiny and helpless with conveniently small skulls, and grow strong as we feed them a mixture of unicorn blood and snake venom for another few months.

There were over 5 "Karen" posts on r/popular today by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The answer you seek is in my comments. Feel free to read them.

If you think people are using the word 'misogynist' inaccurately, or too broadly, as a general insult, I suggest you take it up with them. Not me, them. I'm not 'this whole sub'.

QT: Can men compete in women's sports if they meet all the same requirements of transwomen? by FlanJam in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The way I read it, it's meant to reveal the silliness and unfairness of the testosterone rule. The sports organisations seemingly can't decide if their categories are about gender identities or bodies. They're letting in male people who identify as women, only if they meet some arbitrary rule that in no way accounts for the differences between male and female bodies. It should be clear that allowing males with feminine gender identities to compete with women is unfair because of the systematic average advantage of males (which is barely touched by testosterone rules), but a lot of people seem to suppress their knowledge of sex differences when prompted to focus on gender identity, so the question is meant to probe whether people really think that low testosterone equalises male advantage and makes it fair for males to compete alongside female athletes. It doesn't.

You don't need formal education in sports to get an inkling of the differences between male and female bodies. If you're interested in learning a tiny bit about female physiology I can recommend Stacy Simms' Ted talk "women are not small men" about women's training needs. Or you could read Caroline Criado-Perez's book Invisible Women--in particular the chapter on sports and medical research (or rather, the lack thereof) on women.

I mean, maybe, theoretically you could make some rules to totally negate the average advantage of males against females in sports. But then you have another problem. Even though women perform worse at, say, weightlifting than men (with some exceptions), we recognise excellence in women's weightlifting by comparing them to other women. Or take boxing. While the heavyweight champions may be the best, we still recognise excellence in the lightweight categories, too. But a man who competes at the same level as the top female athletes is not an excellent sportswoman, he's a less excellent sportsman. For example, women have on average 8 or 10 percent more bodyfat than men, and that holds for athletes as well as mere mortals. It's absolutely necessary from a health perspective, but an athletic disadvantage because it decreases the power to weight ratio, which is crucial for speed and power. Now imagine we make weight classes based on bodyfat percentage. If your average elite male sprinter has, say, 7% bodyfat and the average female elite sprinter has 14% (just guessing, doesn't matter exactly), what would you make of a male sprinter who has 14% bodyfat and competes with the women? Would he be an example of excellence in that category (let's call it the 14% category)? Or is he a non-elite sprinter? I'm going to say it's the latter. Same for all the other aspects of male advantage. If you found a shorter, weaker, fatter male athlete with lower upper body strength, thinner bones, more flexible ligaments etc... would you say 'here's an example of excellence amongst women-and-some-men!' ? Personally, I don't think so. You'd see at least some excellent women (by which I mean they're the top of that category) being displaced by non-excellent men.

QT: Can men compete in women's sports if they meet all the same requirements of transwomen? by FlanJam in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Assuming the current rules are fair is begging the question, because the question is whether the current rules are fair. The hypothetical given by the original poster is designed to reveal this.

I don't see how fair rules could be devised for mixed sex sports (at least those involving strength or speed), because men's advantages are multiple and relate to various body parts and systems: size, body fat percentage, joint thickness, q-angle, lean mass, metabolic ability to utilise glycogen vs fat, explosive power, tendon and ligament stiffness (important for transferring force), upper body strength, heart size, lung size, bone strength. And those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly others. We don't know all of them because we don't study women athletes adequately, and because there is always more complexity to uncover about the human body.

Trying to make rules so men can compete with women seems like a losing proposition to me, but I wouldn't be against trying it, as long as women's sports remain intact as well (that is, if women could decide to compete against other women or against small men with high body fat, thinner bones, etc.). What I am against is the elimination of the women-only categories with a very badly designed testosterone rule which makes zero sense either from a physical perspective or a gender identity perspective.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cheers!

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it is strange. You know what I think? I think men invent femininity, their own picture of how women should be, and force it on women with violence, threats, humiliation, "medicine", grooming, economic coercion, advertising and so on. And they fall in love with their own invention of femininity, which is so much better than actual women, who, after all, have minds of their own and bodies that answer nature's purposes, not men's. And then they say femininity is the real thing and women don't exist (I've gotta credit de Beauvoir and Daly for these ideas).

I think trans and non trans men alike do this. I think if the trans movement were to succeed, it would fail. That is to say, if men could successfully strip femaleness from every social meaning associated with it (in short, from femininity), they would be able to enter the category at will but it would no longer be appealing to them. It gets its appeal from the sexual aspect which relies on female bodies. I don't think they'd want to wear makeup and women's clothing if these were no longer associated with women. So they actually need to weaken the definitional criteria of "women" to let a few people in, without changing the content much. They can do this because most of us haven't actually changed our understanding of what women are, we just added "trans women" as an addendum whose logical incoherence we paper over in our minds.

Anyway, that was a much longer aside than I intended. Long speech short sense: neurological sex is only useful to the movement because it conflates femaleness and femininity without destroying the category "woman" (since females are still presumed to be similar enough to each other to produce a standard to which trans women can be matched) while being unfalsifiable. The second it becomes practicably measurable it will be dropped.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Brains are physical, I just don't think what we can currently measure about them should overrule the whole package of physical sex. I would also not use height, elbow thickness, or hair length to determine a person's sex, though I might expect these to differ by sex.

Oh, I do think men and women are psychologically different (though I don't know to what extent this is socialised vs innate, if such a distinction even makes sense), I just think behaviour is a much, much better and more useful measure than neurological scans. Some of the salient features of male behaviour are a greatly increased statistical tendency to sexual predation and physical and social aggression. That's why I like women only spaces. Neurology is not meaningful in this context because it has virtually no predictive or explanatory power with our present measurements, as far as I know.

Can you point me to where neurological sex has been reliably measured and described? I got the impression that the best we can do is say that men and women have a 'mosaic' of brain features that a programme can tell apart with low accuracy? I have also seen a study that shows at least some trans women have brains similar to women and gay men (in one small, specific and potentially unimportant way, kind of like elbows... the fact that gay men and women have similarities here should tell us that this is not a good or comprehensive measure of anything like neurological sex) but I have never seen anyone suggest either that they can reliably tell female from male brains, let alone that trans people's brains can be reliably classified as the sex they identify as without previous knowledge.

So yeah, I'm still concerned that you're preferring a virtually unmeasurable definition of woman/man (neurological sex) over a concrete, highly reliable measure (actual sex), and that the effect if not the purpose is simply to allow men access to everything formerly reserved for women, including the word itself.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When you say neurological sex, are you saying you think there are distinctively sexed brains? I have a couple of questions, then.

  1. Do you think these differences are significant enough to make them the more important classifying feature (in other words, is this more important than physical sex?)

  2. Would you be willing to restrict legal sex change and access to women's spaces on the basis of neurological sex, assuming it could be measured?

Because honestly, I think a lot of trans women have bog standard male psychology. Behaviour is a much better measure of psychology than neurological features. And redefining women as an idea they have is a traditional male behaviour, a continuation of what men have been doing forever under patriarchy. And the more recent strains of activism I've seen online, involving bullying and sexual threats towards women, is so distinctively male in my opinion.

My worry is that you're trying to shift the meaning of 'woman' and 'man' from something concrete, meaningful, and highly significant to our lives (sex, including whatever sexed psychology exists) to something unmeasurable ('neurological sex') in order to blur the boundaries of 'man' and 'woman' so that men can have access to everything formerly reserved for women. That's the problem with an unmeasurable, unprovable, unfalsifiable definition.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right. I can say what I think trans is according to what trans people say, but the real question is whether any of it is meaningful. I just don't find gender identity a meaningful thing. I'm sure some people feel they have one, but I don't find it more important than, say, your star sign or whether you identify as belonging to a music subculture. Let alone more important than, or capable of replacing, sex.

For GC: what makes someone trans? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't invent the word, so I can't really make up my own definition. Going with the definition that other people seem to use, it's something people say about themselves, but there may be wide variation in the actual content. It includes people who dress up as the other sex part time or always; people who medically alter their bodies to more resemble the opposite sex; people who identify as or believe they are the opposite sex (or both sexes or neither); people who know what sex they are but believe that "gender identity" is the more important classification and believe that they have some innate quality of mind appropriate to the opposite sex (or both sexes or neither sex). It's also anyone who says they're trans, even if I can't discern any difference from non trans people.

QT: Can men compete in women's sports if they meet all the same requirements of transwomen? by FlanJam in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not lame, the questions are designed to probe your ideas of fairness in sport, and of what defines men and women.

The reason to have men's and women's categories (when I say men and women, I mean adult male and female people) is that men have a large systematic average advantage in almost every sports category. If there were only an open category, men would win virtually everything, except maybe some ultra endurance events and a couple of other things where speed and strength aren't important. There are benefits to women when they can compete in sports: it boosts confidence; it is good for health; sporting excellence is an achievement in its own right; we are committed to enabling women to take part in the same aspects of public life that men enjoy; and some people make a career out of it. We should encourage girls and women in sports, and celebrate when they achieve excellence. However, excellence simply looks different for women because our bodies are a compromise between athletic performance and the ability to bear children (whether we choose to or not). A category just for women means that they can compete without the likelihood of being so dramatically outclassed by men that they are at risk of injury (in contact sports), or that they have no reasonable chance of winning anything. Splitting sports by sex doubles the number of people who can profitably compete, just as splitting boxing or weightlifting into weight classes increases the number of people who can sensibly compete in those sports. Unlike weight classes, however, women are also from a socially disadvantaged class, whom many people like myself desire to see especially encouraged in public life. Virtually all the people who benefit from sports being split into sex categories are women and girls, and virtually all the people who would suffer from sports being mixed sex are also women and girls. Why the flip would we want to take away those benefits from women and girls?

I'll answer the thought experiment for you, because you seem unwilling to commit to any principles or definitions: It's always unfair for men/males to compete in the women's category, regardless of their gender identity. Low testosterone rules are worse than useless, because they create the illusion of objectivity around the women's category while eroding its original, actually useful meaning.

QT: Can men compete in women's sports if they meet all the same requirements of transwomen? by FlanJam in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You say it's fair for a person to compete if they meet the requirements, but the question is: what should the requirements be? What categories are supposed to exist in sports, and why? It's not "lame" to pose hypothetical scenarios; it's a very useful way of figuring out what priorities someone places on different values, and for clarifying their positions when they seem ambiguous or inconsistent.

If sporting organisations wish to protect purely non physical identity categories, why do they have testosterone or other physical requirements? And why should we have separate sporting categories for personal identities at all?

These are questions worth asking because there are good reasons to have male and female sporting categories. Allowing males to compete in the women's category contradicts the purpose of the women's category, and adding a testosterone requirement is a useless papering over of this contradiction. There is no coherent principle or reasoning behind these rules, and the hypotheticals are designed to reveal this.

Women's perspective on sexualized video game female characters? (Mortal Kombat, media aimed at women) by Kai_Decadence in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"An experiment I usually try to ask women who think this way is whether or not they'd wear some of these overly sexualized outfits if they were alone on a remote island with monsters that they'd have to defend themselves from"

Hehe. The monsters is a nice detail because we do in fact internalise our society's requirements so thoroughly that they often feel as though they're coming from ourselves. De Beauvoir talks about this in The Second Sex in her chapters on girlhood and upbringing. Girls are taught to be self conscious of themselves as an object, and receive approval for looking good. We're aware of ourselves as selves, that is, conscious beings who are the centre of our own experiences, and at the same time we're expected to see ourselves as objects for the consumption of others. We reconcile these by internalising the social requirements, the male gaze, and pretending that it comes from our selves.

A more effective line of questioning might be to ask your female acquaintances if they are okay with little girls being absolutely surrounded by incredibly sexualised media, in which women show their worth by being fuckable. Even if they have reconciled these facts with their own "preferences", they may still have empathy for younger girls. As for the dude? Just tell him you don't like pornography in your games. You don't have a double standard because you're not asking for pornified men in your games.

The women in the elder scrolls are varied: warriors, farmers, bandits, assassins, etc. They're not positive so much as just human, like the men. There are a couple of slightly sexier outfits (tavern serving maid has a low cut dress, for example) but mostly not, and nothing porny.

"would you say that when it comes to these sexualized designs, do you think that a character could be designed as sexy without looking like a total porn fantasy character?"

I'm not sure what you mean by sexy. If you mean overtly sexualised to cater to men's hard ons, then I'm not into it. Women characters should have cool, non-sexualised costumes, normal clothing based on them being people, not sex objects. Anyone who's attracted to women will still find them attractive, just as people who are attracted to men are still attracted to them even when they're fully dressed.

Women's perspective on sexualized video game female characters? (Mortal Kombat, media aimed at women) by Kai_Decadence in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"he (guy I was debating) was trying to explain why a lot of the female outfits from Mortal Kombat 9 can be seen as empowering, liberating, and practical"

I don't believe for a second that he believes this. He knows soft core porn when he sees it, and he likes it. It's not that he doesn't understand your arguments, it's that he likes the porny women's outfits and doesn't care if it affects women negatively. For an in depth critique of hyper sexualised femininity, I would recommend Sheila Jeffreys' book Beauty and Misogyny. Suffice it to say that I don't think 'empowering' is a very meaningful word in this context (exactly what kind of power are we talking about?), and I think women and girls choose sexiness because we're groomed into it and given few opportunities for achievement, respect, self respect or status that don't hinge on male sexual approval.

(I play games but mostly RPGs like the dragon age, fallout or elder scrolls series where the sex of my character doesn't affect the look very much. I wouldn't want to play a game where the women look like some pornsick male's jerkoff material)

All: If you were put in charge of deciding policies surrounding sex/gender identity in your state/province/country/whatever, what would you implement? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, when I say men I mean all and only male people. And yes, I think male people have been at the front of the movement to redefine womanhood to include themselves for decades, and that non female people have joined in, in smaller numbers at first and in greater numbers more recently. That isn't what I want to talk about, though.

The conversation I want to have is about you calling people whatever they want to be called, as you say you do, and whether that's respectful and harmless. I want you to address the charge of linguistic poaching that I made in the last two comments. I want to know if you can actually see the conflict and the harm in taking and redefining language other people use to define themselves.

Was it good, or harmless, for Mary Daly to redefine "lesbian" to mean "women-identified feminists" while downgrading actual lesbians to mere "gay women"? What if straight feminists took all those words (lesbian, gay, homosexual) to refer to themselves, too, and said the people previously known as lesbians were a mere subcategory of feminists, and as a result the people previously known as lesbians had to scrape for new terminology to organise events and spaces for themselves (which they would still need because their reality hadn't changed)? Or suppose I see a subculture that I like, but I'm not part of it. Would it be okay for me and a lot of others who feel the same way to redefine their language to include and refer to myself, even if that erodes the meanings of the language over time?

What I'm asking is do you understand the concept I'm trying to illustrate with linguistic poaching, and do you see how it could be harmful? Can you understand why I don't take it as a respectful gesture when you write that you'll call me "woman" if that's what I want, while at the same time you're engaged in the project of stripping the old meaning (female person) from the word "woman" and giving it a new meaning (person with a feminine gender identity) that does not apply to me and is of no use to me?

All: If you were put in charge of deciding policies surrounding sex/gender identity in your state/province/country/whatever, what would you implement? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, yes, you can misconstrue what I meant by using your redefinitions of my words. Very helpful.

We may be welcome to call ourselves "women" but you and others are working on changing the definition of woman. It's not about making certain sounds or syllables with our mouths, you know. It's about shared meaning, and you and others are attempting to take words that are already in use, and redefining them so they lose that original shared meaning and, if you are successful, have a new meaning, while the old meaning becomes more difficult to express. It reminds me of when Mary Daly said she defined lesbian as women-identified feminists, and the people previously known as lesbians were mere homosexual women. It's linguistic poaching. Besides, if "women" did mean people with a feminine gender identity, I would not count this term as applying to myself. So again, you cannot respect everyone by just calling them whatever they want. If you're part of the attempts to poach sex based language from women/female people, in order that men/male people can use said language as fuel for their personal identities, you are not respecting women/female people.

All: If you were put in charge of deciding policies surrounding sex/gender identity in your state/province/country/whatever, what would you implement? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're framing it as calling people whatever they want to be called. But this entails a redefinition of 'woman' away from 'female person' to 'someone who wants to be called a woman'. The ability to name and define ourselves affects all women, so you can't please everyone by just using the words they prefer. It isn't respectful to go along with men's attempts to redefine womanhood as a personal identity and to poach woman centric language for themselves.

Chris chans transition was never really true and honest and complaining about his preferred pronouns isn't the point here. (wanting to say what I can't on twitter) by terf41percentjanny in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not sure what you mean by honest and true. Men are never women, regardless of how earnest they are. Men never belong in women's prisons, regardless of whether they chop bits off.

Help me understand how CAIS is not a problem for us? by whoamiwhowhowhowho in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Could be, but what's stopping someone else from defining it differently?

Of course we can define things differently, but terms should be useful, in that they have power to explain and predict real phenomena. I'd be open to other definitions if they're useful and sensible.

Sorry for that word dump. I'm having a hard time processing my own thoughts about this but didn't want to keep putting off responding.

Nothing to apologise for, I've seen longer sentences :D

A boy who was treated as a girl from an early age and medically altered early on would indeed be a very unusual case, and we might have social reasons to treat them as though they were a woman. But I think the reason that we treat naturally developed features and acquired features differently is that we know perfectly well that nature creates an entire, incredibly complex being when it creates an animal. Our physiological differences from men are profound, ranging from the life alteringly significant ability to conceive, gestate and deliver babies, to the dozens of miniscule differences in a wide range of things like immune function, metabolism, susceptibility to disease, joint laxity etc etc. And not just our physical features but our motivations, desires, and thoughts are shaped by the kind of animals we are, and by our evolutionarily determined reproductive roles and strategies. Nature creates a masterpiece of detail every time it creates an animal, and it's the history of our evolution and development that give us our essential nature. We sometimes pretend this isn't so--we pretend that we are intellectual beings of our own invention, but that just isn't true. Anyway, adding prosthetic breasts is, in my opinion, more analogous to putting on a headband with cat ears than it is to growing breasts in puberty. It's a flesh costume, one that doesn't change the type of animal underneath. In fact it merely reflects the type underneath, since being a trans woman with a desire to mimic femaleness is necessarily an exclusively male experience.

Also sorry if that was messy or incoherent. Very tired :)

All: How has the opposing position been most or least effective in their arguments? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure that's what we need, to be honest. To take the friend I was talking about, I think what she needs is intellectual honesty and to stop treating women's interests as unimportant. I don't think the breakdown in communication was due to sensitivity, impatience or mistakes, I think it was due to her being emotionally and intellectually manipulative in order to rationalise her worldview and behaviour and make it appear less like what it is: prioritising her personal identity, and her affiliation with other transfeminist philosophers and activists, over women's collective interests and safety. She rejected the idea of third spaces, by the way, which made me think it's not really about safety for her. I think when faced with someone like that, patience is beside the point and women need to advocate for their interests more directly, with e.g. policymakers.

Help me understand how CAIS is not a problem for us? by whoamiwhowhowhowho in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC claims "woman" does have necessary and sufficient conditions

Do they? I think different GCs probably hold different positions. See, for example, Kathleen Stock, who supports a 'cluster concept' in which no one feature is necessary (not my view). Even if GCs held that gametes and only gametes that determine sex, that would be a viable position, though they'd have to bite the bullet as regards some counterintuitive boundary cases. That's certainly one way of solving this minor problem, and is by no means the most implausible solution.

Is this different from the trans-affirming position, which says the same about trans women? At the bare minimum, you could make the same argument for trans women who typically pass.

I think it’s different. I meant that when there’s a disagreement between chromosomes and phenotype, I would find phenotype more socially important and would thus treat it as the overruling feature for the purpose of categorising ambiguous cases. It’s socially important because the CAIS person will be treated as female from birth, and will thus have female socialisation. They’ll presumably have a similar risk profile to women when it comes to committing/being the victim of violence. And their political interests would largely align with those of women, I would guess. And I would say privacy considerations would favour them changing alongside other people with an externally feminine phenotype rather than other people with SRY genes.

As for trans women, I don’t think they have female phenotypes, not even if they pass. I would say, as a tentative definition, that a phenotype is an evolved body type that develops according to an organism’s internal logic. Seeking a medically created female body as an adult has a very different social significance to being born and growing up female. Firstly, trans women will be socialised male. I have no reason to think they are less likely than other males to display the behaviours of aggression, sexual predation and social domination, though I’m open to new evidence if it exists. Secondly, seeking to medically imitate a female body is not the same as being female, and doesn’t create the same political interests. For example, some men want a feminised body for sexual reasons, because they eroticise feminine subordination, or have a paraphilia, for example. Women, meanwhile, have an interest in escaping relentless sexualisation and eroticisation by men, especially where that sexualisation is tied to harmful sexist stereotypes. So even if I thought that medicine could create a female phenotype (I don’t), I would propose that there are socially relevant differences between a born phenotype and an acquired one, especially where the motivation to acquire the female phenotype may in fact be motivated by distinctively male psychology/behaviour.

Help me understand how CAIS is not a problem for us? by whoamiwhowhowhowho in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Firstly, even if some difficult-to-categorise cases exist, that doesn't mean the concepts of male and female are bad. They're still very useful and map onto reality exceedingly well. Better than many of our concepts. I don't see anyone deconstructing the concepts of bread and cake as vigorously, for example. No one is panicking about the cut offs between related species, or about how we distinguish and name colours. It is impossible to come up with perfect necessary and sufficient conditions for almost all of our important concepts. If you don't believe me go read up on the philosophical debate on the definition of knowledge, or the sorites paradox. This is a feature of how human thought interacts with the world, and it is absolutely not unique to the categories of sex, which are actually firmer and more reliable than many other categories.

Secondly, I think our understanding of sex has to take into account the fact that sex has an evolutionary history in the species, and a developmental history in the individual. Usually we take one of two evolved developmental pathways to end up at a clear type. But sometimes the mechanisms that drive us along these developmental paths conflict or don't succeed due to genetic variation, environmental influences, etc.

If I understand it right, people with CAIS have the mechanisms that usually sends people down the male pathway (SRY gene, male hormones), but that developmental pathway fails due to insesnsitivity to the hormones, and a female developmental pathway partly succeeds (the development of an externally female phenotype) but not fully (no ovaries). So there are good reasons why they could be categorised either way. Personally, I would say that for the female external phenotype is most socially relevant, and therefore people with CAIS should be treated as female and women for most purposes, except in medical situations where their genetic maleness could be relevant. But yeah, as long as we categorise people by sex, then for fuzzy cases, where people don't fall automatically into one or other category, we have to decide which features are most important and assign them a categorisation on that basis. This isn't a major problem, in my view.

All: How has the opposing position been most or least effective in their arguments? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't like being blunt or hurtful, and tried to discuss things nicely with people at first. The problem, as I see it, is that we define as 'rude' and 'offensive' everything we don't want to hear. And we don't want to hear women telling the truth or defending their interests. Reading a little bit of feminist history has made me realise that women at the cutting edge of promoting women's liberation have frequently been very unpopular. That's not to say there aren't people who are unnecessarily nasty, as well. But when you're talking to people who have redefined clarity and truth as hate speech, you're never going to meet their standards for politeness. I had this problem when discussing the issues with a QT friend. I tried to hedge my bets and use language she would understand and accept, that wouldn't hurt her feelings, but she used the ambiguity in my choice of words to deliberately and repeatedly miss the point and answer straw men. Yet had I used the plain language necessary to prevent these misunderstandings and make a compelling argument she would have been devastated and thought me a villain.

All: How has the opposing position been most or least effective in their arguments? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed. The really effective tactics are 1. telling everyone that their critics are right wing bigots, thus isolating us and our ideas from our likeliest allies. 2. associating their movement with gay rights by analogy so that progressives will accept it without looking more closely 3. redefining language and demonstrating so much outrage when people disagree or use different language that many well intentioned people hesitate to say anything at all.

Logically the twaw position is incredibly weak, though, because at the core is equivocation between two terms: 1. woman (female person) and 2. woman (personal identification as a female person despite lacking the key qualification).

GC: Are "male" and "female" fallacious dichotomous categories? Are we guilty of either-or, black and white, excluded middle, and false dilemma fallacies when we categorize things into binaries such as "male" and "female"? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's a tiny bit of fuzziness at the boundaries of many of our concepts, but that doesn't endanger the categories themselves. The real question is why you have decided to take this radically sceptical, deconstructive approach to sex and not to other concepts. It's a little uncertain where the sea turns into the sand but do you try to walk on waves, or sail in the desert? There could be some argument about when raw becomes cooked becomes burnt but do you eat cinders or raw meat? No, you don't, because there's an important practical difference and the exact boundaries don't matter most of the time. And anyway, sex is not a spectrum like thin to fat or small to big. There are two big, very different categories into which almost everyone falls, and a tiny number of hard-to-categorise cases.

Oh, and I can't believe I have to say this, but humans are not bananas. Humans are not merely a set of genes. They're an evolved kind. They're born from other humans. In other words, there's a process and a history involved, not just a list of properties.

GC: What about male women, male men, female women and female men? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That doesn't work because words also have historical associations, not just current meanings. The redefinition of woman from 'female person' to 'feminine person' allows people to equivocate between both meanings. For example, athletes like Veronic Ivy/Rachel McKinnon say they deserve to play in women's sports (sports for female people) because they are women (feminine people). Even if we agreed to your redefinition, there'd be significant confusion due to all the remaining associations. And if we ever did manage to shift all the associations, then presumably 'male woman' would no longer satisfy male people who wish to be treated as women, precisely because 'woman' would have lost its association with female people.

Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know where it originates, but I don't think it's a medical claim so much as a an "ameliorative definition": a redefinition for political purposes. I don't know if these philosophers created the ideas or just reflect ideas that have emerged through activism, but you can see some turning points perhaps in two philosophical papers. In Sally Haslangers "Gender and Race" -- in which she argues that 'women' should be redefined in terms of social subordination based on perceived femaleness rather than on femaleness itself. Her idea is that this will help the word 'woman' do the work of picking out those individuals who are the concern of feminism. The second paper is Katharine Jenkins's "Amelioration and Inclusion" in which she argues woman should actually be defined as a gender identity so that no one is categorised as man or woman against their preference, and so that we can centre trans women in feminist spaces.

More recently I feel a lot of the discourse has evolved online, so it may be difficult to pin down the origins of different ideas. But you should also look at the advocacy work of Stonewall and Mermaids, for example, since they receive money to train people on trans issues.

NB : not feminine by [deleted] in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. My non-binary friend recently posted a list of all the ways we're allowed to talk about her. Not just pronouns, but also honorifics, nicknames, terms of endearment, descriptions, everything. There was a common theme: anything but female/feminine.

Study on how self-ID & safety (female spaces) by vintologi_se in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's hard to predict. I've seen a lot of stories on the internet that give me a prima facie reason to suspect the number may be increasing rapidly, but it would be good to have studies to prove one way or another.

Study on how self-ID & safety (female spaces) by vintologi_se in GenderCritical

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does anyone want to discuss? I've heard the argument from TRAs that trans people are so few in number, and have been using the facilities they pass in within incident for decades, that we shouldn't even be arguing about this. Does this paper show that it's not a big deal, at least in bathrooms, and that there might be other things more worth focusing on? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A world without gender roles. That's the dream!

I guess there would still be sex differences, though, so people could still develop self-directed paraphilias around e.g. menstruation, pregnancy, and lactation. It would be much harder to justify why other people should play along, though, if there were no gender roles.

Why do we call them transGENDER and call it GENDER dysphoria rather than SEX dysphoria? by IceColdLover in GCdebatesQT

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is certainly what radical feminists like Raymond have been suggesting since 1979, yes. Others, such as Stock, think that expectations and norms will always accumulate around men and women, and the most we can hope for is to make gender norms vastly more flexible and less harmful.

If someone is distressed by harmful, rigid gender roles, then we should expect a more feminist society to involve fewer instances of gender dysphoria. And if we got rid of the harmful Othering of women, transition might be less appealing to certain men with AGP. But if someone is attracted by the gender role of the opposite sex, regardless of the actual content of those norms, then transgender would presumably persist as long as differentiation between men and women does.