The same Colorado baker who refused to bake the gay wedding cake is now being fined for refusing to bake a transition cake.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-18T20:38:27+00:00

"Jack Phillips isn't refusing goods or services to people, he's refusing to make very specific, custom artistic renditions, which are considered speech. He's not kicking people out of his business or refusing to sell them goods."

That sums up the crux of the issue.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-29T16:20:07+00:00

You can't just redefine words any which way you want and expect the rest of society to go along with it. That's why.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T04:37:11+00:00

That is the point of the question. It should be uncomfortable. It should make people squirm a little. When you take a cold hard look of the reality of what trans right activists are demanding, it isn't pretty.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-25T04:50:41+00:00

If we can reduce women's odds of being sexually harassed or straight up assaulted by roughly 90% in locker rooms and changing rooms by making them single sex why wouldn't we?

Also as for the just report them argument, please explain to me what good that will do? Do you honestly believe that there is a chance in hell that most women will see any justice whatsoever when a man gropes her, rapes her, leers at her, flashes his junk and so on? Allowing trans male bodied people in the women's single sex spaces will just makes it even more likely that she won't be believed. Right now women who step forward about sexual harassment or god forbid straight up assault are called crazy, hysterical, lying harpies and now we get to add 'transphobic' to the list if she is unlucky enough to be sexually harassed or assaulted by a transwomen.

"Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions. At least 89% of victims face emotional and physical consequences."

"Men are responsible for the vast majority of sexual violence in America. According to a 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 90 percent of perpetrators of sexual violence against women are men. Moreover, when men are victims of sexual assault (an estimated one in 71 men, and one in six boys), 93 percent reported their abuser was a man. It’s true that women also assault men, but even when victims of all genders are combined, men perpetrate 78 percent of reported assaults."

Edit: Added if at beginning of first sentence.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-11T15:07:01+00:00

Totally legit, bisexuals who don't respect LG spaces are assholes. The ones who encourage the trans woke homophobia are even worse. Bisexuals need to understand that they are not gay or lesbian and should not speak for those groups. They are bisexual which is it's own thing.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-04T21:17:47+00:00

Men are dangerous to women and other men. That is acknowledged, but violating women's consent, boundaries and bodily autonomy is never okay. Not wanting to be in men's spaces does not give male bodied people the right to violate female bodied people's spaces.

If a certain subset of men/male bodied people are especially unsafe around other men the solution is finding a 3rd space for them or a more creative solution to protect them, not sacrificing women's rights.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-30T01:05:36+00:00

Accepting that transgenderism is a personal subjective belief that should not be forced on the rest of society. Preferred pronouns should be voluntary. Respecting people's boundaries and right to consent especially in single sex spaces. Not sending death threats, rape threats, trying to defund rape crisis shelters and so on. The trans movement's entitlement (a lot of it is typical male entitlement under a different guise) is what is causing the animosity.

Ironically a lot of the bad actors in the trans movement are an excellent example of why women need single sex spaces away from male bodied people no matter how they personally identify. A disturbingly high percentage of males are a threat to women. It sucks that men cannot be blindly trusted because of this fact, but I'll be damned if women aren't allowed some measure of safeguarding from male violence and male sexual harassment.

Nowhere is safe for women. Not even our own homes. Let me repeat nowhere. The only time a woman can completely let her guard down is when no males are present. Now trans activists are trying to destroy single ex public bathrooms, changing rooms and rape crisis centers. Of course we're pissed off! Many of us have been sexually harassed, stalked, threatened or attacked on public transportation, minding our business walking down the street, at our jobs, at the gym, at the grocery store, the list is endless. What do you think the me too movement was all about? Now I'm supposed to let male bodied people who make my life a living hell into the locker room? Fuck no!

I am so done with being harassed & threatened no matter how conservatively I dress, no matter how careful I am. There is no escaping from it and the trans movement is pulling the ultimate dick move taking what little spaces women have that are set aside to specifically allow women to be free from that bullshit when they're vulnerable!

The double standard where women are expected to be nice doormats while men who claim to be women do whatever they want regardless of the very real sometimes deadly consequences for women is maddening. I'm a goddamn human being and I should be able to change in peace without being leered at, cornered, flashed, groped, inappropriate comments made about my body and if I'm really unlucky attacked by some unhinged misogynist who refuses to take no for an answer. The only way to give women that space is to ban all male bodied people. The alleged good men more often than not do nothing even when a women is being sexually assaulted on a crowded train station right in front of them! I don't trust any man anywhere near me when I'm vulnerable. If a movement takes my right to change in peace free from sexual harassment away, yeah I'm going to be angry and I'm not going to mince my words.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T20:20:32+00:00

Do you deny that half of the human population have bodies built to be able to gestate and give birth? What are these bodies exactly if not female? Do you deny that the other half have bodies that are built to be capable of impregnating the other half? What are those bodies exactly if not male? Extremely rare exceptions to the rule do not a spectrum make.

If there are no female bodies how do you explain how we figured out with astonishing accuracy which half of the human population to deny basic human rights for 1,000s of years up to the present day? The baby girls being buried alive in misogynist countries didn't get to identify out of being female. The girls dying in menstruation huts sure as hell didn't to get to identify their way out of their demise. The little girls married off and raped by old men dying from being impregnated at a far too young age didn't get to identify out of it either. Female bodied people have bigger problems than whether or not someone recognizes their "identity" or uses the correct "pronouns". Why should trans activists be allowed to trample over the very real, very urgent needs of female bodied people? Why should sex denialists have any influence on the law? We may as well let flat earthers run the coop while we're at it.

Not being allowed to trample over women's consent, bodily autonomy and basic liberties is not oppression. Trans activists who are hellbent on destroying women's rights are the oppressors, not the oppressed. The cornerstone for women's liberty is being able to say no to men, no matter how they personally identify. If we cannot say no to men in single sex spaces, if we cannot reserve spaces for women to save them from male violence, child marriage and all of the other horrors that are inflicted by men on women throughout the world, how else exactly are we supposed to protect ourselves? Do you have an alternative better solution to protect women from male predation once all of women's single sex spaces are gone? Do you have a better way for women to advocate for their liberation when women are no longer allowed to meet together to advocate for their interests and rights free from male influence?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-01T04:23:02+00:00

Failing utterly & completely to engage with GC's arguments. They have a tendency to change the subject or bring up something so completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand that it boggles the mind. Like clown fish when we're talking about human sexual dimorphism. Failing to define their terms is a big one, because if one side refuses to be clear/honest about what they're talking about, it's pretty difficult to have a meaningful debate on anything.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-13T23:21:17+00:00

If you have a female body you are welcome in all female only spaces. If you disobey basic rules of human decency and behavior, you may be summarily kicked out of those spaces for being an asshole. The difference between a woman leering and a man leering is strength and a huge difference in violent & sexual crime rates between women and men. Women aren't even in the same ball park when it comes to violence. It's sor rare that I don't even worry about violence or sexual harassment at all when dealing with women. If a woman (extremely unlikely but bear with me) sexually harassed me or attacked me I wouldn't be afraid to fight back. I wouldn't be afraid to tell her she's being a creep and to knock it off.

If a man did that I know he could easily overpower me and do much worse. I also know that society doesn't have my back, so I just get the fuck away from him as quickly as possible and hope I never run into that predatory piece of shit ever again. (I've got a lot of righteous anger built up after a life time of dealing with sexually predatory men). The strong prey on the weak. That's why we have protective spaces for the female bodied people. Women are literally not strong enough to physically defend ourselves from the average man.

That's why I have no issues with lesbians or bisexual women in women's spaces. Every woman I have interacted with in my entire life has respected my boundaries. Men on the other hand... Whoo boy you couldn't pay me to go into a unisex locker room. I'm bisexual myself, but please as a matter of basic human decency never ever under any circumstance stare or god forbid leer at people especially strangers. It is extremely rude at best and really threatening at worst. Social awkwardness is not an acceptable excuse. You're an adult. Control yourself.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-05T06:23:38+00:00

Because blatantly basing their gender identity on stereotypes makes them look bad, but a lot of trans ideologues can't help themselves, because stereotypes/bio essentialism are necessary for trans ideology to make even an inkling of sense. How can a man claim to have woman essence if he doesn't believe that there are certain traits and behaviors inherent to women, that allows men somehow magically to also be women, because he shares these same personality traits that all women allegedly have? What does it mean to be 'treated' like a woman if not to be treated according to society's external imposed concept of gender? What transwomen consider 'validating' gives the game away.

Gender identity is nonsense without stereotypes. To believe in gender identity you need to believe in magical woman essence, a gender soul, a pink brain or something similar. If there is no 'magical woman essence' gender identity is bullshit. Full stop.

Human beings come in two varieties female & male. There are infinite personalities that any individual person can have, but that does not magically change their sex. Womanhood is not an identity. It's a fact, like having brown hair and brown eyes. Would you really take someone seriously if they said "I identify as a blond person and want to be treated like a blond person"? The sentence "I identify as a woman and want to be treated like a woman" is equally absurd. It gets worse, the person who identifies as a blond person finds the dumb blond jokes validating and claims they have always been stupid and that's why they knew they were blond. It's easy to find examples of transwomen trotting out equally offensive stereotypes of women to justify their belief that they are magically, somehow women too and women are expected to smile and nod along as transwomen encourage and identify with the exact same sexist stereotypes that have been hurting actual women their entire goddamn lives.

Gender identity is the same old sexism wearing a different cloak. Either way women (humans of the female variety) are expected to lay down and be good little doormats. Or else.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T04:31:27+00:00

I am very worried about the consequences for teenage girls. Boys are watching violent porn from and attacking teenage girls at disturbingly young ages. Single sex spaces are a refuge when teenage girls really start getting the full brunt of male sexual terrorism and violence, now there is no refuge for them. I wonder how many of them must be harassed, assaulted and raped before the democrat party wakes the hell up. The scholarships and opportunities lost by young female athletes will also be a tragedy.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-29T00:59:16+00:00

From my experience it's not normal at all. My clothes are just clothes. My body is just my body. The things that autogynephiles find arousing revolt me to be honest. I am revolted by a lot of male sexuality, especially when it involves dehumanizing and objectifying women. Autogynephiles take the dehumanization to the next level, they somehow manage to be even more disgusting and revolting than the average man.

A lot of bitterness gets built up after a lifetime of being told what to wear, what not to wear, ways I shouldn't move to avoid harassment/tempting the men. I wish female bodies weren't sexualized at all in day to day life and that was all kept strictly to the bedroom.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-13T23:38:46+00:00

The reason women need not want NEED single sex spaces: Male Violence
Why is male violence such a big deal? Because men are on average significantly stronger than women. Women wouldn't even have a fighting chance stronger.
Because of the underlying threat of male violence women cannot safely socially police criminal & non criminal, but still completely unacceptable behaviors that many men engage in. Most men get away with groping, leering, stalking, threatening and attacking women. The justice system does not have our back. The conviction rate of rapists and other types of sexual predation is abysmally low. Sexual assaults, rape and what not cannot be undone. Hence why single sex spaces are a justified preventative measure.
The consequences of rape for women can be catastrophic on multiple levels including unwanted pregnancy.

The strong prey on the weak. So the weak need protection. Single sex spaces and racial segregation are not comparable at all.

The differences between lets say a white person and a black person are superficial. Skin color says nothing about a person's character or capabilities. Racial segregation is irrational and unjust. That is why it is wrong. There are significant important physical differences between men and women. Given the scourge of male violence and male sexual predation single sex spaces are justified as a preventative measure to protect women from violent and/or sexually predatory men.

Lesbians & bisexual women have the same average strength as heterosexual women. We can safely socially police homosexual & bisexual women if they engage in inappropriate behavior without fearing for our lives. (Also it is extremely unlikely for lesbians to behave inappropriately. Men commit roughly 99% of rapes and the vast majority of sexual crimes.)

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-25T04:34:14+00:00

You do acknowledge that transwomen have male bodies right?

One of the benefits of single sex spaces is that I know I am sharing it with other people who also have female bodies and know what it is like to have one. This is especially important for teenage girls who are dealing with menstruation. The last thing they need is to be harassed by boys or god forbid grown ass creepy men when dealing with very personal strictly female bodily functions.

A far too high percentage of male bodied people engage in unacceptable behaviors ranging from leering, unsolicited sexual/inappropriate comments, flashing, invading personal space, groping, stalking, placing cameras in locker rooms and bathrooms then posting the videos online to full on sexual assault/rape/murder. As a general rule of thumb women aka female bodied people don't do this shit. Roughly statistically men are 95% more likely to engage in those kinds of behaviors, hence the need for single sex spaces, because women shouldn't have to tolerate the above listed behaviors in any way shape or form.

Transwomen are not special. They have the same likelihood as any other male bodied person to engage in these atrocious behaviors hence why we should not make an exception for them. It's basic safeguarding that massively benefits 50% of the population, so absolutely worth it to keep these spaces single sex.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T16:39:54+00:00

Are you saying that a space specifically reserved for people with female bodies also belongs to people with male bodies if they say so? What about female bodied people's consent? Is it okay to violate their consent without their express permission? How is it not creepy/predatory to violate people's consent especially when they are changing?

"There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent"

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T16:34:26+00:00

The issue is not transwomen's transness it's the fact that they have male bodies. If a transwomen uses a unisex communal changing room it is no longer creepy and predatory, everyone has already consented to share that changing room with male and female bodies. The issue is deliberately crossing the line into predator territory by going into women's single sex spaces without women's knowledge or consent. For 99% of society women means female bodied person. So when women see women only on the door they understand it means they are only sharing the communal changing room with other female bodied people. It is a violation for a male bodied person to enter that space. Only to the trans movement does it also mean a male bodied person who claims to be female.

This site breaks it down quite clearly: "There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent"

The refusal to accept third/unisex spaces as a good compromise only adds to the creepiness of the demand. Also if any male is permitted in a female changing room the sign should always be changed to unisex so people know exactly what types of bodies they are consenting to share the communal changing room with. You are asking women to give male bodied people the benefit of a doubt. It's not all men all over again.

Enough men are predators that we need to be able to enforce flashing & related laws to hold predatory men accountable in full force without any confusion. Any male bodied person in a women's changing room is a violation. Full stop. Any visible penis in a women's communal changing room is flashing and the male bodied person should be charged as a sex offender. The simple solution is for transwomen to use the space reserved for male bodies, a private individual changing room or a third unisex space which many facilities already have (Family changing rooms).

Your side is making the insane claim that men aka people with male bodies should be treated as though they were actually female. You should backup your claim with evidence. Prove to us that there is a special subset of men who are as low of a threat women as women are to each other. Give us good reasons why women should treat a subset of male bodied people exactly the same as female bodied people. My side is based on objective easily verifiable reality and decades of stats showing that men as a group are a threat to women's safety.

Transmen still have a lower rate of violence especially sexual violence than transwomen, because they are female. Many transmen do not pass at all, in fact I recommend that most of them continue to use female only spaces for their own safety. Their female socialization often gives the game away even if they do pass. I have no problem sharing a communal changing room with the Buck Angels of the world. Her female socialization makes it obvious that she is actually a woman. Many if not most passing trans men can put women at ease with a simple explanation. Heck the mastectomy scars make it really obvious they are actually women. Detransitioned women should also be welcome in female only spaces even if they look fairly masculine for the rest of their lives. They have female bodies, therefore they are welcome in women's single sex spaces. It's not fair or right to force men to share their single sex changing rooms with female bodied people either, but less of a pressing issue, because female bodied people aka women aren't a major threat to men's safety.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-08T14:49:46+00:00

Not true at all. If a man wants to be 'dominant' I wouldn't touch him with 10 foot pole. When I think of dominants I think of abusive sad pathetic little men who only have an inkling chance with women who have very low self esteem.

This concept is very hard for the average man to grasp, but women are human beings. We have desires, we have fantasies that are completely independent of men's desires or fantasies. Men who don't know this are shit in bed guaranteed.

As for 'maximum desire', I don't want to be desired by people I find repulsive. Being groped, being followed, disgusting sexual comments made about my body, cornered, threatened and coerced, none of that shit is sexy. I feel a hot seething rage when dealing with every single one of those pieces of shit.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-01T01:02:06+00:00

Key concept: Consent. Trans activists seem to have a really hard time understanding this. If it's not consensual it's not okay.

I have never once in my life been sexually harassed, threatened, or nearly killed by a woman. But I sure as hell have had to deal with all of that bullshit from men. Not just once, but throughout my entire life. Most women I know have experienced varying degrees of male sexual terrorism and violence. That's why I have no problem consenting to share a locker room with other women, but not with men. Do you really want to make life easier for sexual predators, pedophiles and creeps? Do you?

Allowing male bodied people into single sex spaces reserved for female bodied people does exactly that. Once that boundary is destroyed women no longer have a legal right to say no and we are fucked literally and figurately by piece of shit sexual predators who should've never been allowed in in the first place! You are arguing that we should destroy what little recourse women have when a piece of shit sexually harasses her and yes nonconsensual dick exposure is sexual harassment. In the good ol' days before this madness took off we could go to the manager and have that bastard kicked out of the establishment and put on the sex offender registry, so everyone would know that he is a dangerous rotten creep that should be kept far far away from women and children.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-13T18:57:04+00:00

Eh, sexuality isn't a choice. I suspect a lot of bisexual people make the mistake in thinking their ability to be attracted to both sexes can be extrapolated onto everyone else. Tastes aren't a choice. You're either into something or you aren't. Some people love licorice, some people hate it. Some people are only attracted to the opposite sex, others are attracted to both sexes in varying degrees.

Heterosexuality and homosexuality are both natural. Having blonde, brown, red or black hair is also natural. Humans come in quite a few varieties.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-10T15:26:49+00:00

In South Korea the sexism is more blatant and extreme. In the U.S. it is more under the surface, but still there in liberal circles. I have a strong suspicion that women who grew up with more blatant sexist cultures (quite often religious) in the U.S. have similar gender nonconformity to women in the take off the corset movement in Korea. There are a lot of people in the U.S. who deny sexism is even still a thing and women are gaslighted en masse to believe it isn't that bad. It really is that bad for women no matter where you live in the world. Some places it's more likely to happen out in the open in others behind closed doors. Either way women are still suffering.

I'm rooting for them. I don't shave my legs and I don't wear makeup. I like braids too much to keep my hair short all the time. Left my religion, because if god is a sexist asshole he isn't worth worshipping. So I totally get where they are coming from. I wish more women all over the world took off the corset. That would really get the ball rolling on women's liberation if we collectively said fuck this. Fuck all of this and embraced our goddamn humanity together. Femininity is a gilded cage. The misogynist men who claim to be women can have it.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T20:06:51+00:00

Gosh the news stories titles are infuriating. What about women's rights? This isn't a case of some poor beleaguered trans woman. He deliberately exposed himself and viewed women's naked bodies without their consent. It blows my mind how tilted the coverage is.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T01:18:56+00:00

By getting by I hope you don't mean males violating women's consent by using women's single sex spaces. A particular trans individual not feeling safe in the men's room does not justify violating women's sexual boundaries, bodily autonomy and consent.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-26T02:08:08+00:00

Should medical transition for gender dysphoria be allowed? For children no (they don't have the maturity or life experience to make such a permanent decision about the rest of their adult life, before they have an inkling of a clue what it is like to be an adult.) Adults potentially yes depending on what kind of physical transitioning they are engaging in. I do think we should take medical ethics very seriously and have a bare minimum level of gatekeeping involved to reduce the odds of someone making a permanent choice they could regret for the rest of their life. Many physical transition surgeries and hormone therapies cause irreversible lifelong negative health and quality of life consequences that cannot be undone. It makes sense to treat the mental health issues first before making any body modifications. So I am neutral about adults physically modifying their bodies to look more like the opposite sex, but it should absolutely be a last resort.

If you believe it should be allowed, why and with what restrictions (if any)? Adults must be fully informed of the consequences and risks involved in any body modification they are interested in. For more extreme modifications like genital surgery they should be required to undergo a reasonable amount of mental health treatment first before being allowed to replace a perfectly healthy body part with a poorly done faux one of the opposite sex. If you read about the side effects, the consequences of surgical failures and overall health consequences of genital surgery it makes sense to think no one should be doing this, hence why at bare minimum we should be requiring mental health treatment first if not outright banning some of the more objectively harmful body modification practices pushed by the trans movement.

What about legal/social transition (i.e. legal documents)? Legal documents absolutely not. I have a book recommendation: "Invisible women" which talks about all the ways failure to measure sex in studies has led to a huge data gap in every aspect in women's lives from the way cars are designed to the effectiveness on drugs on women vs men. It is also incredibly important for safeguarding. Allowing a man into a rape crisis shelter, women's prison, an all girls summer camp and so on can have catastrophic consequences, in fact it already has had catastrophic consequences. Allowing men to legally change their sex to female undermines women's essential sex based rights in the law. We have different bodies and drastically different needs than male bodied people and that should be recognized in the law with no confusion.

As for social transitioning eh, live and let live. As long as the trans person in question isn't being a jerk I have no problem using pronouns and whatnot as a social nicety. Part of not being a jerk though is male bodied people staying out of women only spaces. That's where I draw the line. I can be nice to them socially, but if a man who claims to be a woman tries to join me in the women's locker room oh hell no. If he barges into a lesbian meet up he should be kicked out. If he tries to participate in women's sports he should be called out for exactly what he is: a cheater. He can play on the men's team or join a unisex sports league. Pretending to be the opposite sex does not give men the right to be treated as though they really are the opposite sex in all aspects of life. There are hard lines they should not be allowed to cross to maintain women's rights and safeguarding so we can freely participate in public life.

I see trans individuals the same way I see religious fundamentalists. I lowkey think they're kinda nuts and disagree with them on a lot of things, but as long they leave me be I'll do the same for them. It's when they start destroying women's rights that I say now hold on a minute, there's a very important line I will never allow men to cross without a fight. Women's rights are tenuous at best and men's personal beliefs, identities, feelings whatever you want to call em' should never be allowed to override those rights. There is a very long history of horrific oppression against women up to the present day that we must never forget about. I am Malala is another good book to read. All it takes is one batshit crazy ideology to gain power for women's rights go out the window. Transgenderism is a pseudo religious movement. We can give them reasonable keyword reasonable accommodations the same way we do for regular run of the mill religious folks, but not at the expense of the rest of society.

Edit: Fixing wording

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-17T19:49:20+00:00

Trans men are not an easier front for predators, nor do they pose the same risk to women as transwomen. Thanks to self ID there are lot of transwomen that are unambiguously male, because they are male.

You are ignoring my point that it is predatory and creepy to violate women's consent when a male bodied person enters single sex spaces reserved for people female bodies.

Edit: Also if we don't allow trans people to change their driver's licenses and birth certificates we have an easy non intrusive way to verify who is actually male or female when needed if someone's actual sex is ambiguous thanks to body modification. Body modification is a choice. People who choose to modify their body should accept the consequences of that choice and not destroy the rights of other people to consent, safety, privacy and dignity.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-08T15:07:45+00:00

The Queer theorists have made all of this needlessly complicated.

If you are born male you will live male and die male.
If you are born female you will live female and die female.
Man = Adult human male
Woman = Adult human female

There is no such thing as being less female or less male. All the surgeries, hormones and makeup in the world will not change your sex. If someone's leg is amputated they are not less human. If a woman has her breasts removed she is not less female. That idea is absurd on its face. Having cat whiskers surgically installed on your face doesn't make you more cat either. Body modification doesn't change who and what you are.

Homosexual - Attracted to the same sex.
Heterosexual - Attracted to the opposite sex.
Bisexual - Attracted to both sexes.

Occam's Razor comes into play with this new modern theocracy. See my definitions of male, female, homosexual heterosexual and bisexual vs queer theorists definitions of the same terms. My definitions are based on obvious easily verifiable objective reality. Simple straightforward, to the point. No confusion.

Queer theorists definitions are based on denial of that same objective reality while contorting themselves into knots trying to redefine these words so that a male bodied person can be considered the same as a female bodied person, so that a heterosexual person is now magically somehow actually a homosexual person even if they are only attracted to the opposite sex. Once again that is absurd and obviously wrong to anyone who thinks about this for more than 2 seconds. A cat is not a dog. A woman is not a man. A heterosexual person is not homosexual even if their opposite sex partner made body modifications to try to look like the other sex.

Believing that 'Men can be women' makes the word woman meaningless. Believing that 'Heterosexual can be homosexual' makes the word heterosexual meaningless. There are two types of human beings. Male and Female. There are 3 sexual orientations. Same, Opposite and Both. Simple.

TLDR: Trans activists are literally telling you that black is white and white is black. Men are women and women are men. Heterosexual people are homosexual and homosexual people are heterosexual. It irks me to no end that this 'philosophy' even got off the ground when it is obviously and categorically wrong on every level. My refutation to all of those points is literally black is not white. Queer theorists will need a hell of a good argument to convince me that black is white and they should be the ones doing the convincing since they are making such a ridiculous claim.

Trying to force a definition change of the word white/black will not change the fact that out there in the observable world there is a color black and another color white. If you steal the words for those colors for your own nonsense beliefs the rest of us will come up with new ones for black and white, because we need words that actually mean something to describe the world around us.

A good summary of Occam's Razor: "The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is "when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

Edit: Formatting

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-07T00:26:42+00:00

Masculinity, and Femininity are bullshit impositions. I'm a human being and I'm tired. I just want to go out and do my thing without people ascribing masculinity or femininity to it. Also sexism is built into those concepts. I don't consider being into math[insert any subject here] or logical[insert any descriptive word here] a 'masculine' or 'feminine' trait.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-09T02:27:07+00:00

Yep. The lack of empathy & even the most basic consideration trans activists and their ilk have for others is a huge problem.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-30T01:22:06+00:00

The Male Bodied Person aka man should be charged with indecent exposure.
If a business decides to allow any male bodied people in a women's single sex space the signage should be changed to unisex so women know what they are walking into. Keeping the sign women only and allowing male bodied people to enter is unacceptable.
Any male bodied person who exposes himself to women and girls in women's bathrooms and locker rooms is a sexual predator. Full stop. Trans status should not give male bodied people extra super special immunity from sex crime law nor should it give them permission to sexually harass women which is exactly what this trans identified individual did. Transwomen do not have a right to force women to see their penis without their consent. That this even needs to be said is absurd.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-31T20:20:43+00:00

This whole argument is nonsense. Human sex is not a spectrum. Either you are male or you aren't. Somethings are spectrums yes, that doesn't mean everything must be a spectrum. Are you getting tired of making these asinine arguments?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-19T03:46:44+00:00

Putting women at higher risk of sexual harassment, assault & rape, completely destroying women's even playing field in sports and erasing women's sex based right in the law is more pressing issue than whether or not Always has the female symbol on its products. I don't give a shit if Always removes the female symbol. Destroying women's sex based rights is a bigger deal than a company changing it's package design. Hence why Transwomen's entitlement aka male entitlement must be stopped. Men's feelings do not matter more than women's rights.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-19T02:52:52+00:00

Who's in charge the vast majority of the time? Who easily gets positions of power? I'll give you a hint. The trans people who have male bodies hold most of the positions of power and influence. Sexism holds true even after transition. Go figure.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-13T06:11:40+00:00

Then what exactly are you transitioning into? Why is there any need whatsoever to change your body?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-13T04:56:05+00:00

You do understand that transitioning is conforming to a different gender role right? Trans people say I don't like this [male/female]box, I want to get into this [female/male]box instead.

Gender critical people say fuck the boxes. Your sex is not your fate. There are two sexes and infinite personalities. There is no need whatsoever to modify your body. You are your body and your body is just fine the way it is. You know what actual gender nonconformity actually is? Being 100% honest about who and what you are and pursuing your interests regardless of whether they are 'masculine' or 'feminine', the haters be damned. Not trying to fool them into thinking you are the opposite sex. That's the cowards solution.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-19T06:05:51+00:00

Gender nonconforming people are proof the gender is bullshit. Gender/sexist stereotypes is what makes makes their life harder. I sure as hell would be a lot better off without bullshit sexist gender roles for women.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-09T00:24:32+00:00

Before sex disclosure is a must. Sexual orientation matters and should be respected. Gay men are not interested in vagina. Lesbians don't do penis. Heterosexual people aren't interested in people who are the same sex. Bisexuals are more likely to be open to it, but they deserve to know beforehand.

After surgery it should still be disclosed. Many people do not want to have anything to do with neo genitals. Surprise neogenitals are likely to be traumatizing for the other person especially if they get up and personal before finding out what they are actually dealing with.

Neovaginas aren't even remotely close to vaginas. Neopenises aren't even remotely close to penises.

Initial dating it should be up to the individual trans person when it makes sense to disclose, but for long term dating the other person should absolutely know. Kissing is a bit of a gray area, but knowing the sexual orientation of the person you are dating can help determine if it's okay or not.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-08T00:50:05+00:00

Sex absolutely matters especially when people are naked. You have a lived a very lucky life if you haven't learned that already the hard way.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T00:38:12+00:00

That is the point of single sex spaces. Any male entering them is willfully disregarding women's consent and can be immediately kicked out. This strict crystal clear standard makes it relatively easy to prosecute offenders.

By stepping into that space he has violated women's consent and is committing at bare minimum Voyeurism. It doesn't matter if he is leering or not. The women there did not consent to any male viewing their naked bodies. He could be a world famous painter who just wants to paint naked women, but if they did not consent to it he is to all intents and purposes a sexual predator and his neutral artistic intent is irrelevant. There's a reason artists hire models and don't go traipsing into opposite sex changing rooms when they need to practice drawing the human form. Consent matters.

If we make exceptions for some males we can no longer hold predatory voyeuristic & exhibitionistic men accountable which was why the Wi Spa fiasco happened. What if the man who entered the women's area was one of those extra super special exceptions? What if he really felt deep down that he was actually a woman on the inside? We see exactly how that plays out in the real world. Women are told to suck it up and now they no longer have a safe place to change nor are they allowed to seek justice for Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure. The comfort & desires of 1 male has been put above every single woman who goes to that spa.

Less than 1% of rapes result in convictions

Now if the conviction rate for rapists is 1% how low do you think it is for voyeurs and exhibitionists? I bet a lot of them face 0 consequences for sexually harassing women. Sexual harassment & assault is notoriously hard to prove and convict (especially in places where for privacy reasons cameras are not allowed like you know a locker rooms/spa rooms & don't get me started on the predators who place cameras in women's restrooms/locker rooms so they can violate women even further by posting the footage online. About 80% of the victims of spy camera porn are women.).

Women's only spaces are one of the very few areas where holding sexual predators accountable is a no brainer. If he wasn't a sexual predator he wouldn't have entered the women's only area in the first place. By making exceptions for men who claim to be women we go back to square 1 with that lovely 1% conviction rate. Allowing any male in destroys the entire purpose of women's single sex spaces. At that point we may as well make all spaces unisex, which leaves women once again having to deal with sexual harassment/rape with no recourse or justice the vast majority of the time making the space safe for no one. Now that's what I call a lose lose scenario.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-10T22:07:29+00:00

Yeah it's nuts. I grew up religious, so I felt very strongly about sexism from a very young age since it was blatant in my little subset of American culture. Curious did you grow up with less blatant sexism in your local community?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-06T22:31:06+00:00

"Why aren't children sexless even though they can not release eggs or sperms?

Sure someone who removes all their sex organs in a surgery once had sex organs, but now they don't, and they don't meet the definition of sex, which requires one to have certain organs and release gametes. So why aren't they considered sexless or less of a sex?"

FairyPrincess you're the one who brought up this ridiculous idea in the first place, then freak out when someone is being somewhat charitable to this nonsense saying they could see it that way in very specific circumstances figuratively but not literally. You're the one making sex out to be much more complicated than it actually is. Even asking these questions in the first place proves you don't know what you are talking about. Sex isn't some abstract philosophical quandary than can be postulated, redefined and undefined to death. It's an easily verifiable objective fact that we have understood for 1,000s of years. We just a have a deeper understanding of it through modern science now.

If you cut off a cat's tale it is still a cat. If you surgically install a dog tail on the cat it is still a freaking cat! Same thing applies to human sex. All the surgeries, hormones and roleplay in the world cannot turn a man into a woman. If you cut a man's dick off he is still a man. If you surgically install a poor imitation of a vagina on him he is still a man. He still has a male body. It is physically impossible to turn a male body into a female body. The most we can do with our current technology is make a poor imitation. Ted talk about how fundamental and all encompassing in every cell of your body sex differences are Binary sex denialism/obtuseness just makes the Query Theorists look foolish and ignorant.

You're taking things way too literally and being deliberately obtuse. If your only method of engaging with GC is deliberately misunderstanding and misrepresenting what we are actually saying there is no point in discussing anything with you.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-19T02:57:07+00:00

I'm just going to leave this here:

"Among known risk factors for being convicted of a violent crime, male sex is the most prominent; men commit about 90 % of violent crimes" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/

I'd rather take my chances with women thank you very much.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-18T03:39:09+00:00

The vast majority of the world is aware of sex and the fact that humans come in two varieties male & female, so my view of the world needs no effort to spread, because people have eyes. It's like gravity, you don't need to know about Newton or Einstein's theories to know it's real.

Only a fraction of the world's population have the luxury belief in a 'gender identity'. Many people who bleat "Transwomen are women" and "Transmen are men" are just playing along. They can see. They know that transwomen is a man and that transmen is a woman. It's just easier to play along then deal with the left's version of the McCarthy inquisition.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-21T01:15:30+00:00

Women do not need men in any way shape or form outside of reproduction. I cite all of history up to the present day how men have made women's lives significantly worse than they would have been without men. Even in liberal democracies, sexual harassment, assault, rape, domestic abuse are still huge problems. Every single one of those women would have been better off without men in their life. That's for sure.

All the positive traits men have, women also have. The only thing that men really have going for them is their brute strength which is too frequently abused. In patriarchal societies "Might Makes Right". Throughout history up to the present day men have not been protectors. They are what women need to protect themselves from. Women can easily use cooperation with other women to make up for the lack of raw brute strength negating the need for the male sex entirely in day to day life.

Sure there are good men out there. They aren't special though. There are plenty of good women too. It really is a no brainer which of the two sexes in humans is safer on average to be around. I'm inclined to believe that women are the backbone of civilization, despite laboring under the yoke of Male Tyranny & Male Violence.

The Ultimate solution to Male Violence & Male Tyranny: Kenya's Women only village

There is much more to evolution than just reproduction. It is a lot more complicated especially with social animals. Cooperative species like ants do just fine with most of their members not sexually reproducing. Males are so useless in a lot of these cooperative animal groups that they are often used solely for reproduction then die due to a shorter life span or by being kicked out of the colony.

There are matriarchal groups of animals like elephants that kick males out of the group when they get old enough, likely because adult male elephants are too troublesome.

Animal Kingdom Matriarchs

Grandmother Hypothesis

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-15T23:54:10+00:00

https://www.ted.com/talks/paula_johnson_his_and_hers_health_care?fbclid=IwAR0a_CAL2PpcZtUehHUBRzfHXB3fUrJBUxoC2zNxDCu9DkkGt2Ysc3v2JzU

Take a look at that video. You would have to change every single cell in their body to change a person's sex. Assuming we could even do that in the future, what are the odds of them surviving the process? It is extremely unlikely we will ever be able to change a person's sex with technology if not impossible.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-09T03:38:56+00:00

I think it is more accurate to call it sex dysphoria or body dysmorphia more akin to anorexia than anything. If a person was raised alone in a vacuum would she or he have sex dysphoria, anorexia or any other body dysmorphia disorder? We'll never know for sure, but I'd bet a lot less people would.

Social contagion can increase the odds of someone developing symptoms, and culture has a big role to play as well. I do believe that the trans movement is making the problem worse by encouraging people to ruminate about it and embrace it instead of finding healthier ways of coping that don't involve life long medicalization.

So I'd say body dysmorphia disorders are definitely a real thing, but they are inextricably linked to societal influence. There is something very wrong with society when a lot of teenage girls develop anorexia. Likewise there is something horribly wrong with society if a lot of people are damaging their bodies in the pursuit of the impossible goal of changing their sex. The culture at large has catastrophically failed to accept gender nonconforming people as they are, much in the same way it has failed to accept teenage girls and women as they are.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-01T00:46:03+00:00

What about consent?

If I walk into a unisex locker room I am consenting to share that space with strangers that have male bodies or female bodies.
If I walk into the women's locker room I am consenting to share that space with strangers that have female bodes.

Exposing genitals to people without their consent is indecent exposure and it is a sex crime for a reason. No one should be forced to see a surprise penis. Any man who exposes his penis to women who did not consent to it is a sexual predator full stop and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Some men need to be forced by law to keep their unwanted disgusting dicks to themselves. Women have a right to be free from sexual harassment and that includes freedom from exhibitionists who enjoy flashing their genitals in front of the unsuspecting public particularly women and girls.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-30T02:25:45+00:00

If it's not about humans, it's irrelevant. Cats have a tail. That does not mean that humans also have tails.
Scientists can also be ignorant. Especially when they step out of their lane. Ex. A physicist isn't the person you should be going to when asking questions about biology. Saying some scientists support x isn't a good argument.
Bad scientists exist. Bad studies exist. You need to use your best judgment to determine if a scientific study, theory or conclusion is reliable. As more data is gathered scientists throw out old theories, ideas and conclusions on a regular basis. Generally the most reliable information can be found by looking at scientific consensus. There is scientific and public consensus that human sex consists of males and females, because it is an easily verifiable objective fact.
Scientists can lie and can be paid to lie by big industries. This spectrum nonsense is coming from a few outliers. There are scientists denying climate change, there are scientists that were paid by the tobacco industry to deny the adverse health effects of cigarettes and there are scientists today that have a vested money motivated interest to legitimize transgenderism. So if you want to convince us that human sex is a "spectrum" you need a better argument than a couple nut job scientists say so. Give us some solid evidence that it's a spectrum. Ex. Junk Science and the Tobacco Industry
Even if you did manage by some miracle and it would have to be a miracle prove that human sex is a spectrum how does that relate to transgenderism? Even if a human hermaphrodite was discovered that would not negate the fact that 99.99% of humans are unambiguously male or female. It does not negate the fact that all transwomen are male. That does not give any credence whatsoever to males who claim to be women. They're still male.

Male bodied people are not female bodied people. It impossible to turn a male bodied person into a female bodied person. Why should we treat male bodied people the same way we treat female bodied people? Why should male bodied people who claim to be women be given access to women's single sex spaces, shortlists, sports and so on? Why should they be allowed to define what womanhood is instead of female bodied people? Trans activists are the left's version of young earth creationists. They're arguments are equally unconvincing. Stop grasping at straws and come at us with a real argument.

So let's assume the premise for a bit. Let's assume that human sex is a spectrum. Why should male bodied people be put in the same category as female bodied people? If you don't have an answer to that why are you wasting your time trying to claim that human sex is a spectrum? What exactly do you have to gain by doing this?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-26T04:39:46+00:00

That's a tough one. The slippery slope is very real here with men demanding and gaining! access to women's prisons, rape crisis shelters, women's sports leagues and so on. Things have gotten so absurd that a reductio ad absurdum is already the reality. Which is why I am drawing a hard line at not allowing legal document sex change. This is for the sake of women's rights and trans people safety. Ex. If the wrong sex is on their driver license in an emergency they may get opposite sex medical treatment that could kill them literally.

Normalizing gender nonconformity would go a long way to making trans identified people's particularly trans identified males lives easier. Women have already normalized dressing in 'men's' clothing. It's normal for us to wear pants now as an example. Source: Women arrested for wearing pants (not an ideal source, but you get the idea) Women were the change they wanted to see. I continue that tradition by not shaving and not wearing makeup, because I believe it should be normal for women to exist in their natural state the same way it is for men. Fortunately I'm not getting arrested for it though.

Trans identified males need to be inspired by women's history and toughness, buck up and start normalizing feminine presenting men in society. Claiming to actually be a woman is the cowards solution. Society is more comfortable with a transwoman than a gender nonconforming man which is one reason I suspect trans activism took off despite the absurdity. There are extremely conservative countries that harshly punish homosexuals that embrace transgenderism, because a transwomen is easier for them to tolerate and accept than a feminine gay man.

We need to embrace that there is no such thing as a 'girls toy' or a 'boys toy'. Girls aren't born innately feminine, boys are not innately masculine. Biology is not destiny. Femininity does not = woman. Masculinity does not = man. Both sexes can be varying degrees of masculine and feminine. We need to separate 'gender' from who a person is. Gendered expectations are cultural impositions, not innate. When feminine gay men are fully accepted as a normal part of human variation transwomen's lives will be much easier as well. The same applies to transmen.

The trans movement unfortunately is regressive, because it is pushing back the progress we were making in accepting gender nonconforming people. Saying a masculine woman must be a man isn't progress. Transing historical gender nonconforming individuals isn't progress. Most of us don't quite fit into the straightjacket of femininity or masculinity.

There are a lot of gender nonconforming people myself included who are horrified by the trans movement, because if we were born a decade or two later we would have been trans too. I wanted to be a boy when I was a kid, because I had a more masculine personality, but I'm glad I grew up before the trans movement took off. Transitioning for me would have been a tragedy. For many of the detransitioners it is a tragedy and I really feel for them.

A gender nonconforming woman explaining being gender free A collage of her life A gender nonconforming gay man talking about gender nonconformity

Sorry for the wall of text, I just find this whole moment in history so frustrating. It feels like we're going backwards and I'm pushing back hoping to do my bit to turn it back around.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-19T03:42:37+00:00

That makes sense. Relying on external validation instead of internal validation is a recipe for misery. It seems to also breed entitlement when external validation is made out to be a human right rather than something that's nice to have.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-18T19:17:20+00:00

The big problem with cis is the assumption that everyone has a gender identity. There are many people myself included that do not have an innate sense of gender. Gender is something separate from me that is imposed on me by society. It is external not internal.

I agree with her that it doesn't make sense for the vast majority of people to live on the extreme end of the masculine or feminine spectrum in their culture, most of us fall in between those two extremes, but the in between is not transness or nonbinary it's just your personality. Pressure to conform to sex stereotypes definitely exists, but it is not necessarily trauma when people conform. Much of the time it is a matter of habit and convenience. In homophobic societies homosexual people who attempt to engage in heterosexual relationships may very well have some trauma involved. (This also includes homophobic subcultures where gay men and lesbian women are pressured to overcome their "genital preference" to be open to dating someone of the opposite sex.) Heterosexual people will not have trauma involved at all, because going with the cultural flow is well, easy.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-15T03:38:07+00:00

Yeah, I think you're out of luck on that one. The institutional capture is strong, from what I can tell Youtube is the most tolerant for now, but that may change. It's scary how much power these large platforms have for silencing political speech.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-02T01:44:36+00:00

So why do you perceive yourself as female? How exactly could a male bodied person even have an inkling of a clue what it is like to exist in a female body? Explain what this female essence is.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-25T06:31:36+00:00

Free speech as a principle should matter for society at large. If someone can lose their job, receive death & rape threats for not agreeing with the status quo of the day their free speech isn't very free is it? The status quo will change. It always does and one day you may very well be on the wrong end of it.

The Trans Activists are the McCarthyists of this generation. Authoritarians are the enemy of pluralistic societies and suppression of dissent is one of their classic mo's. Trans activists are very much so repeating history albeit in a unique way thanks to modern medicine. All it will take is for enough people to say enough! For it all to come crumbling down.

Remember that the people who are suppressed the most by authoritarians are disenfranchised groups like women & minorities, which is why suppressing free speech by mob rule is a fucking big deal. Women have been shouted down as long as we have written history. Your lot is just more of the same misogyny. Trans activism is regressive, your lot has got the fundy conservative Christians beat for viciousness. Screaming at women and telling them to shut up or else isn't a pretty look. Anyone who sends rape and death threats isn't fit to be a member of society. They failed at the bare minimum of basic human decency.

"Have you no sense of decency?"

Threatening people's employment, because they disagree with you is unacceptable. People need money to live, to support their families and trans activists act shocked that people are fighting back against them. Of course there is going to be pushback. We should be free to speak are minds and fight for our rights without being attacked by the braying mob of the day.

Would you like it if a bunch of bigots banned every trans sub on reddit? Would you like it if 100s perhaps even 1000s of people tried to get you fired, because you said something in support of trans activism they didn't like? Would you like it if you were sent death & rape threats, if you were assaulted for advocating for trans rights? Really think about this. Who are the bullies here? Who are the oppressors? Who are the tyrants?

Bigotry Definition: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

In this debate who are the bigots? I'd say it's the group of people who suppress any speech that they don't like. Suppression includes banning subs you don't like from the public square of our modern age. The public square includes platforms like reddit, twitter, facebook etc.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-19T03:09:19+00:00

Simple it's sexism.

Why are most CEOs men? Why are most politicians including trans politicians men? Why are most managerial and higher up positions held by men? Why is the main focus of trans activism and the criticism of it on trans women? (Hint: It's because transwomen are men) Why did the trans movement particularly trans women get so much support so easily? (Hint men sympathize with & support other men)

Men's feelings matter more. Men's demands matter more. Men's self inflicted victimhood is catapulted above women's real problems all the goddamn time. Men need to be held in check or they will trample over women. You know that we have to make child marriage illegal to force men as a class to stop marrying & raping literal children right? I cite all of human history up to this very second as to why men's power, influence and control over society must be held in check or girls and women will suffer monstrous atrocities at men's hands legally.

Imagine if the trans movement only consisted of trans men aka women who claim to be men. Would it have ever gone off the ground? Really think about this. Women are struggling to get basic bodily autonomy and now basic protections are being stripped away, because men's feelings matter more than women's rights. Women are second class citizens. They are thought of last if at all politically.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-13T06:29:27+00:00

Women are people with female bodies. Trans women do not have female bodies. Women need a word for themselves. Trans Women aka Men aka people with male bodies have no right whatsoever to define womanhood for us. The only way you can justify considering men who claim to be women women is by claiming womanhood = a certain subset of sex role stereotypes.

Pray tell what does the magical woman essence consist of that means male bodied people can be lumped in with women aka adult human females? If you get rid of gender roles aka sex roles aka sex stereotypes from the debate all you have left is that there are two types of human bodies male and female. Males can never be female full stop.

Black is not white. Transwomen are not women. They're men. You're going to have a hell of a good argument to convince me that men can be women.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-01T19:42:54+00:00

Here's the deal those stories are anecdotal. I need actual stats. I am fully aware there are homophobic men who will go after men who aren't masculine enough for their own tastes. The solution is to hold these men accountable and change our culture so men tolerate other men who are feminine including men who claim to be women. We need to reduce men's homophobia, misogyny & transphobia. Men need to buck up and act like adult civilized human beings. (Obligatory not all men for the whiners, but too many men.)

I'm glad you are okay with not violating women's boundaries and a neutral space solution, but I am concerned about the trans activists who think that it is okay. The risk of assault and murder on trans identified people has been exaggerated by bad stats. We need a firm basis in reality to have a solid discussion. If a trans person is not a prostitute their risk of murder and assault is very low. Yes it does happen, but male on male violence is a completely different ball field than male on female violence.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-18T22:03:47+00:00

Is gender necessary? By gender I mean sex stereotypes.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-16T23:53:25+00:00

If they have the capacity to father children they are male. Extremely rare edge cases aren't a concern of mine. I'll leave all of that to the scientists and the doctors.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-12T04:50:59+00:00

For as long as we have had written history man has meant adult human male and woman has meant adult human female. In just about every language you can think of they will have words for the adult of the male and female sex.. Redefining well established words with 1000s of years of history without a damn good reason is ridiculous.

How about you make up a word for people who have extra special gender feels. Some people are blurble gender. Some people are blarble gender. There you go those new words are entirely separate from a person's sex, have fun. The words woman and man are already taken. They're perfectly acceptable words with solid no nonsense definitions.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-08T00:24:48+00:00

If you go into a single sex space you are only consenting to be viewed naked by members of your sex. Your personal opinions on nudity are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about consent. A male walking into a female only single sex space is violating every single women's consent the moment he enters the space.

This is a non issue in unisex spaces, but we're not talking about unisex spaces right now.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T22:53:00+00:00

If a woman is not an adult human female, then what is a woman? If you're a woman then what am I? I don't have an internal sense of gender, so does that mean I'm not a woman?

Is there an objective way to prove that some male bodied people are actually women on the inside? Is there an objective independently verifiable way to measure gender identity? If not, it is a subjective faith based belief and should be treated as such.

I think the comparison to religion is quite apt, many trans activist arguments & claims are so similar to religious arguments & claims that they may as well be twins. Really I'm getting deja vu from my freshly minted apostate days.

Pseudoreligion: Belief or philosophy with certain aspects of religion (a founder, a principal text, faith-based beliefs, etc.).

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T21:35:33+00:00

It is a faith based belief question, especially since trans activists are demanding that biological men be treated as though they were women. It is impossible for a male person to know what it feels like to be a female person unless someone believes in something similar to a soul separate from the body (innate gender identity). A belief in something innate separate from the body has 1,000s of years of religious history. The only difference between a transwoman and any other man from a nonbeliever's perspective is that one man claims to be a woman and one does not. Physically they are indistinguishable. A man who has 'transitioned' is just a man who got some body modifications. There are men who have transitioned who believe they are still men. Is there an objective way to verify which male bodied people are actually women on the inside and which ones are not other than just taking their word for it?

I respect that it is a deeply felt personal belief hence my willingness to engage in some social niceties while engaging with trans identified individuals in real life, but I'm not willing to do more than that. My rights, my beliefs, my boundaries and my consent matters too.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T19:37:17+00:00

That third unisex space is already built in a lot of places. They're called family restrooms and family changing rooms. I've lost count of the number of places I have seen family restrooms available. Male and female bodied people can both enter that space, that is the point of family restrooms, so opposite sex parents can take care of their young children, this space can also benefit trans people. If it was such a hard sell it wouldn't be so common.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T02:13:55+00:00

circlingmyownvoid2 is on topic. I did specifically mention Voyeurism as well, because women who are using women only locker/spa rooms are only consenting to be naked in front of other women. Men pre op or post op should not be allowed into women's only changing rooms, because women have a right to choose who views them naked and who does not. Fully or partially clothed men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms either. By using a women's single sex space they have denied every single male no matter how he personally identifies that consent. Women are not a roadshow for any male to peruse and view as he pleases. It doesn't matter if he's leering, staring or just plain ol' looking. Any man looking at naked women in a women's only locker room is violating their consent and should risk being charged with Voyeurism.

Many trans activists try to argue that good behavior should mean that women should make an exception for some males in the women's locker room, but that is not a justifiable, because their very presence in that space is a violation. The most well behaved transwoman in the world still does not belong in the women's locker room and he is still at the very least committing Voyeurism unless he closes his eyes the entire time.

So I disagree with circlingmyownvoid2, because I believe even if no 3rd space is currently available no male should be allowed in a women's only single sex space even if he has had genital surgery or made sure to cover the twig n' berries, that does not negate his maleness. Nor does it give him the right to violate women's consent, but I do appreciate circlingmyownvoid2's willingness to debate.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-18T18:37:23+00:00

I totally agree. There are a lot of compromises that would make trans identified people's lives a lot easier without impinging on women's rights, but they're refusing to take the middle ground. I'd be on their side if they weren't determined to step on women.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-16T20:17:42+00:00

I'm sad, because there were quite a few great gender critical essays on Medium too, but many of them got removed. It's crazy!

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-06T15:05:12+00:00

What Bio Essentialism actually means:

"The belief that 'human nature', an individual's personality, or some specific quality (such as intelligence, creativity, homosexuality, masculinity, femininity, or a male propensity to aggression) is an innate and natural 'essence' (rather than a product of circumstances, upbringing, and culture)."

Bio essentialism is referring to sexist stereotypes not biological reality. Believing that women inherently want to be mothers/are nurturing is Bio Essentialist. Knowing that women have female bodies is not. Sexist beliefs and stereotypes can be self fulfilling prophesies via nurture, which is why we should avoid prescribing certain character/propensities traits on people based on whether they are male or female.

The concept of Bio Essentialism has gone over a lot of trans activists heads, because they so desperately want to believe that a man can be a woman or a woman can be a man somehow. Attempting to redefine well established terms & concepts to fit your queer world view then expecting us to argue with your redefinition doesn't fly with me. Bio essentialism has nothing to do with how we define/determine sex. It has everything to with what we believe about people based on their sex aka cultural sexist stereotypes.

A transwoman saying "Now that I transitioned I am bad at math now" is bio essentialist. They believe being a woman means you must be bad at math. "Now that I transitioned I'm super emotional and I cry at the drop of hat." Also bio essentialist. A very large percentage of transwomen believe that women are inferior intellectually & emotionally. (I know this, because I've read and listened to transwomen. Their beliefs about womanhood prove they don't have the faintest idea of what being a woman is actually like and many of their beliefs are extremely insulting. It blows my mind that any woman would play along with this. After reading transwomen's writing my first thought was, oh hell no, same sexist bullshit different century. The religious fundies left a cultural & political power vacuum and this is the sexist nonsense that is filling the void.)

The entire concept of a "gender identity/gender soul" is bio essentialist. Trans activists are presuming that everyone has an innate sense of gender and if it doesn't match they must switch to the other side magically somehow. Crazy idea, but being a man doesn't mean you have to be aggressive or violent. You can be as feminine, kindhearted and flamboyant as you want while still being a man. Being a woman doesn't mean you are fated to be stupid, weak or hysterical you can be tough as nails, invent X-rays and calmly stand up for yourself. Transitioning is superfluous, shallow and unnecessary self harm if you don't believe in bio-essentialism.

That's where I'm coming from. I feel bad for trans identified people. They could have much more fulfilling & healthy lives if they accepted their bodies as they are and embraced being authentically themselves, the bio-essentialist stereotypes imposed by society be damned.

Gender nonconformity aka radical authenticity the stereotypes be damned is the solution. Not transitioning.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-02T05:55:33+00:00

Missexing someone is confusing and inaccurate. I don't trust sources that call men "she" and women "he". It would be a lot harder to destroy women's sports and spaces if media sources accurately sexed people in their articles. He broke all of the women sports records. He was transferred to a women's prison and shortly assaulted prisoners. He is demanding access to women's locker rooms. Accurately sexing people put's these issues in a much clearer light.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-01T18:17:53+00:00

Give us proof. How often does this happen? Is it at a rate higher than how often women get assaulted? Where are the studies, the news stories of trans women getting attacked in the men's single sex spaces, specifically because they are trans?

You do understand that allowing men who claim to be women in the women's restroom defacto makes it unisex and defeats the whole purpose of banning men from single sex spaces for women in the first place right? Also it makes it no safer for you either, because the men who want to attack other men who claim to be women can just claim to be a woman too and follow you right on in. Especially with self id where any man can say, 'I'm a woman now' and saunter on in.

You are also completely ignoring privacy & dignity. Many women are not okay with changing in front of men no matter how they may personally identify. You are violating women's boundaries by insisting on being in intimate spaces with them when they did not consent to it.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-10-20T15:56:58+00:00

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness if it is so strong that it cripples the person who has it. Trans identity is a belief system. Like being a Christian or a Scientologist. A person can have crippling gender dysphoria and not subscribe to transgenderism.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-31T17:27:52+00:00

Women having less body autonomy than a corpse
The unacceptable lack of research into women's health (Many studies test only men and male cells, drug dosages are often wrong for women, because they didn't bother to test the drug on women and women are dying, because of this. Dysmenorhea is huge too, it's tragic how little we're doing to help the millions of women suffering from debilitating monthly pain)
How little to nothing is done to prevent men murdering, raping, harassing and/or assaulting women. Violent men have predictable patterns of behavior and we could intervene much sooner to prevent them from catastrophically harming women instead of telling women to just deal with it.
Child marriage
Slavery Worldwide, too little is being done to end it
Global Warming
Broken Economic System where we have billionaires with employees that are living hand to mouth

There are a lot of very important issues that the trans nonsense is distracting us from, which is one reason that politicians are embracing it. It's easier to support a faux civil rights movement than real ones.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-29T23:36:15+00:00

Gender Nonconformity is not doing or doing something different than what is expected of your sex by your culture.

*U.S. Culture Perspective: Mileage may vary since the U.S.A is a huge melting pot so this varies from community to community

All a Woman Needs to Do to be Gender Nonconforming is be her natural self which is crazy when you think about it. - Not Shaving - Not Wearing Makeup - Not Wearing Girly Clothing (That often falls apart after two washes)

Other ways women can be gender nonconforming - Going to college & gasp graduating! (I have actually been told repeatedly to not go to college and get married by my family) * Being competent at any field or hobby that is considered 'masculine'. * Being Assertive, Rude, Aggressive & Loud * Standing Up For Herself * Not putting others needs before her own * Not having kids * Not Marrying * Not Dating * Playing sports & gasp actually being competitive * Being Rational, Logical & Stoic * Actively Speaking instead of just listening. How Dare * Aging Naturally * Pursuing their dreams instead of being the support character in someone else's life * Being Angry (A lot of men prefer to believe women are 'crazy' instead of you know actually having very good reasons to be fucking furious)

This list could go on for a very long time. In summation women are expected to primp themselves so men have something nice to leer at and they are also expected to sacrifice their lives in service to their family, partners, friends & put men's needs above their own. And if they fail to live down to the society's widespread belief in women's inherent inferiority and prove themselves to be equal or better than the average man they are gender nonconforming.

Gender Roles/Sex Roles for women are bullshit. They're a straightjacket and any movement that embraces these gender roles is a sexist movement.

Edit: Formatting

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-20T23:36:18+00:00

"If they have the capacity to father children they are male." Already solved the edge case. Reading comprehension is a thing. I recommend you try it. Your point isn't as effective as you think it is.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-20T05:22:53+00:00

I don't shave my legs. In the United States it is not normal for women to not shave their legs. In some cultures it is normal for women to not shave their legs. E.G. Gender is arbitrary bullshit. Name any stupid expectation of men or women you can think of and there is probably a culture out there who has the opposite belief about which 'gender' should be doing what. Gender is the problem not the solution.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-06T00:58:38+00:00

So for you would you describe it as a personal fiction that helps you get by? Are people who claim trans status, but do not have gender dysphoria actually trans? What you're describing sounds like transmedicalism which makes a lot more sense than woman gender. There is definitely a difference between preferring to be called a woman and claiming to be a woman. Preferring to be called a woman I would not consider faith based, but claiming to actually be a woman despite having a male body is quite a reach that goes right into faith territory.

I'm a woman because I have a female body not because I consider myself one. Identifying as something and actually being that thing is very different. Many transwomen claim that they have a woman gender and are claiming that they are actually women, which is where the conflicts arise like the Wi Spa incident, because women (female bodied people) have very different needs than male bodied people, which is why the law needs to be based on sex not gender identity.

There are objective external aspects of both of those illnesses that can be observed, tested for and measured. Objective criteria can also be defined for gender dysphoria making it diagnosable. Innate gender identity is a different beast though. It's too similar to the belief in a soul for my taste. Having gender dysphoria does not make a male bodied person a woman, but it is understandable given the nature of the condition that is what they would preferred to be seen as.

Major depression: an illness with objective physical signs Fibromyalgia: Understand how it's diagnosed

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T20:01:46+00:00

Not pity, but politeness. I think Christianity is bullshit. Playing along to some of their social mores when I am in Christian company isn't pity it's a social nicety. I don't swear around people who don't like swear words either. Many smokers respect nonsmokers by not smoking around them or asking if they mind first, not out of pity just basic human empathy and politeness and as a nonsmoker who really hates smoke I really appreciate the courtesy.

I believe that transgenderism is bullshit too. I'm an empiricist, I don't believe in gods, gender souls, or regular run of the mill religious souls. I don't hate trans people, I don't pity them, I just disagree with them. I don't believe using the Lord's name in vain is wrong, but many Christians do. I don't believe misgendering is wrong, but many trans people do. So out of social nicety I change my behavior depending on who I am with. It would be a dick move for me to walk into a church and yell "God doesn't exist!". I wouldn't walk into a transwomen social gathering and shout "transwomen are men". That would just be rude, both groups have a right to believe what they believe and form social groups where they embrace that.

You don't have a right to force nonbelievers to adhere to every tenet of your personal belief system especially when you aren't present. It would be batty to demand that all atheists/unbelievers in the country never use the Lord's name in vain ever, because that hurts Christian's feelings. It is equally batty to demand that every gender atheist in the country never misgender any transgender person ever. What the trans movement is essentially advocating for is forced belief/forced religion and that is not okay. It is extraordinarily entitled. I also have the right to believe what I believe and hang out with people who have similar beliefs just like transgender people and I don't believe men can be women and vice versa. Christians have failed to convince me that their religion is the one true way. Transgender ideologues have failed to convince me that men can be women magically somehow. Thems the rocks.

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Freedom of belief includes freedom from belief. It's not personal, we just have very different belief systems. There will always be unbelievers, you will have to find a way to cope with that. Christians(Insert any other powerful religion here) have to be forced every now and again to stop forcing their subjective faith based beliefs on the rest of society, trans people will have to learn that the hard way too it seems.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T05:27:36+00:00

So I'm curious is there some self hatred going on there if you believe men are monsters? That kind of view just seems weird to me for a transwoman to have.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-27T00:50:46+00:00

I could see that working pretty well, where there could be additional data like sex that could accessed after scanning the license/passport number when needed. In most day to day activities sex shouldn't matter, so that compromise could potentially work with some caveats to protect women's spaces, shortlists, sports and so on.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-26T05:53:58+00:00

Receipts please. We got plenty of em' ranging from threats, hate mobs hellbent on destroying people's livelihood to assault & murder from the trans activist side. Make sure they are actually from gender critical people. Avoid false equivalences. Saying a man doesn't pass is not equivalent to rape & death threats. Not even close.

A lot of trans activists like to lump conservative homophobes with gender critical people when those two groups are polar opposites. One thing I know for certain. The biggest threat to trans people are men. Why are trans activists so hyper focused on 'terfs' instead of the Johns & homophobic men who are actually doing the killing? Interesting that the people who disagree are vehemently hated, threatened and attacked, but the actual killers, the actual threats to trans people safety for the most part get barely a fraction of the criticism. Gender critical people don't hate trans people, we just want you to stop violating our boundaries and destroying women's rights. No means no. Women's freedom matters more than men's feelings or desire for 'validation'. Women don't owe men shit, no matter what they personally believe.

Trans activists actions are just as bad as the religious tyrants that didn't allow people to voice disagreement or dissent. They thought they were righteous and just too. I'm happy to be on the side that doesn't hang dead rats on a rape crisis shelter's doors with the express purpose of terrorizing rape victims, because god forbid any women anywhere ever being allowed to say no to men.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-28T01:35:22+00:00

Go out and do shit that makes you proud of yourself.

Learn how to play an instrument. Get into a sport. Take a class, learn a new skill, get a certification, graduate. Be a good friend. Volunteer. Go on hikes and enjoy the view. Join a hobby group. And spend less time on the computer. Too much time online tends to encourage an unhealthy amount of rumination.

Live a full, rich life and mild dysphoria at least will be an afterthought, because you have more important, more fun things to do. For severe dysphoria, psychological help will likely be needed.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-01T23:18:03+00:00

I liked the old reddit GC debate QT rule where you couldn't use tim or tif, but you could write out trans identified male and trans identified female to avoid confusing people new to the debate. That rule made a lot of sense to me. We could have similar rules for AFAB and AMAB from the QT side.

Natal male and natal female also feels like conceding the point, because it implies that sex isn't set for life, that it could somehow be changed later on.

If someone demands atheists not use the Lord's Name in vain makes it impossible for atheists to effectively argue. Demanding that Gender Critical Users do the TRA equivalent of not using the Lord's Name in Vain aka using preferred pronouns and other language like AFAB and AMAB that all plays into the faith based belief in a gender identity and the erroneous idea that sex isn't set in stone.

Demanding preferred pronouns is too much. No one should have the right to impose their own subjective personal beliefs on the rest of society. GCs need to be able to effectively argue clearly and concisely without kneecapping our language to appease the faith based beliefs of our opponents. Some Qt people's fragility is not GCs problem, just like fundie religious people's fragility are not Atheist's problem. Deeply held beliefs should be just as open to challenge as any other belief.

We need to be able to say the emperor has no clothes, there is no gender soul, that person is a man, no one is born in the wrong body and clearly argue where the line between unchecked entitlement and actual civil rights issues should be drawn. If the QT side can accommodate the GC side on this I can tolerate them referring to people as Cis to make it easier for them to make their arguments and using their own terms that they are used to using, so they are not kneecapped either.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-08-19T01:04:03+00:00

Great question. How can you tell if someone is actually feeling God's presence or they're just misinterpreting the feeling you get when you have a particularly good day? How can you tell if someone legitimately has an objective gender identity or they're just happier conforming to opposite sex stereotypes? Is it the Holy Ghost warning you not to do something or indigestion? Does someone genuinely feel like a boy inside or are they just into shit that boys are stereotypically into? Did the secret work and you got what you always wanted by willing it to be or did you just get lucky?

The base feelings stay the same, but the conclusions drawn from those feelings can be all over the place. I feel happy while at church therefore God exists. I feel euphoric when I attempt to look like the opposite sex therefore I actually am the opposite sex on the inside somehow. The thing I prayed for happened therefore God answers prayers. See how the conclusion doesn't quite follow in these scenarios? I'd welcome a steel man from the QT side.

Gender Identity as something independent from subjective human belief is unprovable. People believe in weird shit. Gender identity is one of those things and should be treated with the same level of reverence as any other faith based belief, which is none at all.

This questions also opens a lot of other questions. What is gender identity exactly? Can you measure it? How is it even possible for anyone to actually know what it feels like to be the opposite sex? What about people who don't have a gender identity? Should gender atheists be obligated by law to play along?

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-21T01:36:37+00:00

Just adding to your point. The type of bullying circling received at the hands of boys is male socialization. Males who don't fit male sexist stereotypes well enough will often get bullied for it.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-17T21:55:58+00:00

You're making the absurd claims. Back up your assertions, bring us proof of a spegg, of a living actual human being that is both male and female. Provide legit sources, you know actual scientific studies. Wikipedia & bullshit news scientist website links aren't going to cut it if you're trying to prove sex denialism is true and ideally the mods will start just banning you, this got tiresome a long time ago.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T20:15:10+00:00

You might be in a different country than I am. Where I'm at people can just walk in and they are really common. It's possible, because that's the way it is where I live. Just sayin'

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-07-05T03:03:58+00:00

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible. Sexism against men is possible, but it doesn't have as much authoritative weight behind it as the institutionalized sexism against women. Feminism not the liberal feminism bullshit but actual feminism is about separating personality from sex. Little boys can be affectionate, empathetic, emotional and caring. (There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there who grow up to be fantastic men) Little girls can be stoic, tough and domineering. Your sex is not your destiny, you could have any personality under the sun, we're all humans doing the best we can. Neither sex is inferior to the other, but we are very different physically and we need to account for those differences in law. Most behavior differences can be attributed to nurture, there may be some innate personality differences, but that would be very difficult to separate from cultural influence.

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

I don't know if this will help you feel better about men, but a very low percentage of men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. Many violent offenders also have mental health issues which is unfortunate. We really need to do a better job of taking care of the mentally ill in society. The 1% of the population accountable for 63% of all violent crime convictions

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-06-26T20:07:32+00:00

Thanks for linking that discussion. If there was a way to create a legal fiction to make a passing trans person life easier without opening a can of worms against women's rights I would be open to it. I have a hard time thinking of an alternative solution/compromise that works well for both parties though.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-28T02:43:05+00:00

Shouldn't be a requirement. Just a social nicety that some people choose to do and some people don't. Same way I'll fold my arms if I'm with a bunch of religious people praying even though I don't believe in it.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-05-26T05:29:28+00:00

People should be free to say whatever they want in their private lives. Workplaces should not be allowed to compel their employees speech outside of working hours. That is insane. I wouldn't dream of trying to get a forced birther fired. I vehemently disagree with them, but I think they have just as much a right to earn an honest living as I do unmolested by braying mobs of zealots. You need to understand that everyone, absolutely everyone believes they are in the right. We need damn good hard ground rules for what is unacceptable suppression of free speech on the governmental level and the social level. If the religious zealots come into power again people could lose their jobs for saying they don't believe in god. The examples are endless. Forcing one groups personal beliefs on the rest of society is unacceptable period.

Penultimate_Penance · 2021-04-17T22:48:35+00:00

When debating Gender Woo Woo we're talking about humans and the human reproductive system. (Also who exactly is claiming that binary sex is universal?)

Human sex is binary.

Different species having different reproductive systems does not override that fact. Conflating the two just makes you look foolish.

Go crack open a couple biology textbooks and read them cover to cover. Eventually the knowledge will sink in. *Hopefully While you're at it go learn a bit of philosophy particularly focus on logical fallacies so you can attempt to make arguments that are coherent and not obvious nonsense.

Penultimate_Penance