Is it exclusionary for the LGB Alliance to not include the T? by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the problem comes from different people having different expectations for what the LGBT umbrella exists for.

I think, in many ways, "transphobia" could be described as a branch of homophobia, in that transgenderism and homosexuality both are discouraged in environments where society has rigid expectations of the roles of men and women. If someone views the LGBT movement to be a fight against rigid gender mores, and says "there's nothing wrong with men doing things like wearing dresses or having sex with other men", I can see how they would see the basic shape of the trans fight fitting into the LGBT fight.

It's also very hard to find a trans person that isn't "queer" - I know it's a questionable word, but many trans people use it specifically because "queer" just means "weird", and most transpeople are just going to have complicated sexualities that are just... kinda weird compared to the average person. My sibling is trans, and has joked that they're so grateful to be bisexual, because it's a non-gendered term used for both men and women. We've talked about it a few times, and they've said it'd probably be better if there were words that just mean "attracted to men" or "attracted to women", and that probably a lot of trans people wouldn't look to the LGBT banner if they weren't by default being categorized as LGBT by the wider world.

Also pressing: most people who date trans people, even if they aren't trans themselves, tend to also be LGBT to one degree or another, as they are dating someone with non-standard sex-based traits. I know GC would consider a man who dates a transman to just be "straight", but many people do not, and if their partner passes, they're going to be treated like a gay couple, and suffer from all the issues a gay couple would in public. I'm sure many wouldn't feel like they belong, but if they're perceived as a gay couple, and treated like a gay couple, it's not illogical of them to gravitate to the largest group of people fighting for fair treatment of gay couples.

Now... is it "exclusionary" for LGB alliance to not include the T? Meh, I don't really think so. There are specialized interest groups for specific demographics, and they're literally calling themselves "LGB" not "LGBT" so it's not like they're making any pretense about who they stand for, and who they don't.

I do think it's unreasonable for an LGB person to want LGBT groups to stop supporting trans folk, just because they don't want to support trans folk, tho. Some people actually want to include trans folk in their advocacy, and they should be free to do so. I think assuming the worst about them for it, calling them "handmaidens" and assuming the only people who would advocate for the T are delusional, weak-minded followers who only do it for praise is pretty scummy and dehumanizing.

GC: How do you feel about out trans people choosing to become parents? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not GC but...

I mean, there are Ovarit posts of GC people getting angry at the sight of trans people doing inane things like sitting in waiting rooms or shopping at stores. They get lathered up when trans people date, dye their hair, or mention feeling too good OR too bad about themselves or their bodies. People get downvoted for so much as saying "you can still be friends with someone who's trans."

I think in reality, most people suck. All parents make mistakes and have opinions that their children would be wise to scrutinize for whether or not it applies to themselves. I don't think a trans person would make a better parent than any other random member of any other demographic. I don't think they'd make a worse parent either, tho. As long as a child isn't isolated from the rest of the world, and can see what myriad different types of people are doing, and is allowed the freedom to explore these options with a sane amount of guidance, they'll likely have as much of a chance as anyone to turn out okay.

QT: What is a rooster? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know this must feel like an exciting "gotcha" because GC all tell each other that trans people "literally don't understand what sex is", but I feel like this is more just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with how things are categorized when they're referred to.

Humans use the word "rooster" to describe a chicken they identify as male. If there was a mutant female chicken that developed plumage and secondary sex traits that made it appear like a rooster, without an invasive inspection, people would probably identify it as a "rooster" and if someone said "look at that rooster", no one is going to say WHAT ROOSTER I DON'T SEE ANY ROOSTER. Essentially, I'm describing the "looks like a duck" phenomenon.

And I know, I know "but LEMUR, those people are WRONG tho even if it LOOKS like a rooster!" Sure. But if I wanted a picture of a rooster, and was given a picture of the mutant-chicken, that picture would serve all the purposes a picture of a (lol) "natal" rooster, because I don't plan on breeding the rooster, or eating its eggs, so functionally speaking, there's no difference.

This is sort of the issue I think a lot of people face around the trans issue. For people who are supportive of trans issues, it's not that everyone literally thinks "they're the textbook example of the sex they want to be, down to the chromosomal level". I think it's more that people don't care about what people have between their legs - they aren't doing the thing I see GC talk about on Ovarit where they scour the faces of people on the bus "looking for an adam's apple" or whatever weird "one cool trick to clock the transes" that's in vogue at the time. If they are sitting next to a natal woman, or a trans woman, it doesn't really change the bus ride or harm anyone to say "he sat next to some woman".

I have a friend whos a transman. He's said it better "I know I wasn't born a man. I'm genetically female. But because I pass, people see me as a man, so I am treated as a man. In that way, I socially occupy the role of "man" for the people I interact with. At this point, I just don't correct people." I'm paraphrasing, but it was kind of interesting. He wasn't the type to insist on pronouns or anything - he always maintained gender was a joke, and no one should take it seriously. When he was earlier in transition, he said people both confidently call him "he", and some people confidently call him "she", and then literally debate with each other over it. He never would tell them which was accurate because he thought it was funny how important people thought it was to KNOW what he had in his pants.

So... I think I'm fine with the distinction between "gender" and "sex", for medical reasons. Gender is a social construct, because it affects how we are referred to socially. Sex is your biological plumbing.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I poked my head in to lurk, and this post inspired me to go dig up my old sign-in info.

I think this sub and the GC people behind it probably should figure out what they want the purpose of this sub to be - civil communication, or "bravely standing up to evil trans people and finally getting to tell them what you REALLY think". I made exactly one post here, asking if the "rudefem" behavior was intentional on GC's part or if it was just an unfortunate byproduct, and I think you, worried, were literally the only person who didn't refuse to even admit that rudeness happens at all. I got a lot of the same answers: 1.) GC aren't rude, you're just stupid 2.) They're rude because this is the only place they can be, so they're allowed to be (but also they aren't rude, you're just stupid.)

I should point out I'm not even trans. My sibling is. Out of curiosity as to what sort of shit they're likely to get for it, I looked at what GC people say, and... yeah, mostly it's "they're disgusting narcissistic degenerate criminals who live to rape and masturbate to violent porn". Hell, the top bullet to most "guide to peaking people" usually starts with "make sure to tell people the transes are doing it for sexual pleasure and they'll rape you as soon as they can get you alone".

So... I'm a little surprised this even needs to be said but... stuff like this isn't fun to interact with. Not for a trans person, and not for anyone that has trans people they care about. It's literally just prejudice, coming from people who claim to want to fight prejudice.

I hang out on other debate subs, and what makes them fun is getting to learn more about people different from you; I've gotten to like people I never thought I would, just by being open minded. I don't get the feeling that is possible here. I don't know if feelings are just too raw for most GC to be neutral about it, but diverse, mixed communities have to rely extra hard on giving each other the benefit of the doubt, and proactively trying to find ways around insults, name-calling, prejudice, stereotyping ect. This sub does not offer that. It's not required to, and I'm not saying it has to. But it doesn't want to. And that makes it hard for anyone non-GC to feel motivated to contribute.

QT: What is a rooster? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol I'm a natal woman. Sorry for not living up to your stereotype. (Edit: I am legit not sure how what you just said isn’t like… classic sexism.)

I dunno, tho, I see a lot of GC sentiments centered around whether or not transwomen have penises and how that is the primary indicator of how their gender should be defined. They also talk a lot about how their vaginas are what make them women. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, as that is how sex is defined - by the sex-based organs. But that is what people ultimately want to know if they really want to know someone's sex. They want to know what their sex organs are.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The main GC sub (both here and on Ovarit) has some people who paint the entire trans community with too broad of a brush. I don't support that.

You are the only poster that has even acknowledged this. Thank you. I think I remember seeing your posts on the reddit sub, and I always appreciated your perspectives. I wish there were more people I could talk to about this, because I have a lot of problems with the way trans people act, too. There's plenty of things GC talk about that i think should be explored. But man, the GC hostility is hard to wade through. Thanks for answering in good faith, I also do try to remember when I have good interactions with GC people. Even if they don't happen as often as I wish they did.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m saying that the rudeness has been earned.

So it's more "no one should have to be polite"? Or are there people/circumstances you feel people should be considerate of?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. So for you, there is no truth to "rudeness" being associated with GC at all, and it's entirely one-sided antagonism. That makes sense.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"facts don't care about your feelings."

Honestly, I get the need to vent. There are certain topics that make me very upset and depressed.

This is... sort of what makes conversations here hard. You claiming "GC are just too rational, we don't worry about feelings" and but also claiming "we're so repressed that we need to be able to vent our feelings." You can't "vent your feelings" and also "put facts over feelings" at the same time, you know?

Which is why I say this sub first probably needs to figure out what it wants this sub to be - a place to "vent" or a place to communicate objectively with people who don't necessarily all agree. It can't really be both.

I should clarify, I see plenty of trans people that are rude as well and I'm not a part of their culture any more than I'm part of GC. I argue with trans people plenty as well, over similar topics (ie burning bridges instead of setting good examples, prioritizing venting over objectivity, us vs. them mentalities ect). I'm not saying any of this with the intention of implying GC are the only people who do anything wrong. If this were a trans-heavy sub trying to increase GC contributions, I'd be just as forthcoming with issues I've observed from the trans community. This is just a GC sub, with a primarily GC demographic, so I'm just talking about things GC do.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I've had to say to another person... I'm not trans or QT, tho. I've never done any of that. Is there room for discussion with people who don't threaten rapes and call people "cupcake" but just... aren't GC?

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But I'm not trans or QT and haven't called anyone a nazi. I've never threatened anyone or banned anyone. I've never hurt women or children (that I know of??) I don't think it's a "huge favor" to show up (tho I do think it's silly to expect people to stay if there's nothing enjoyable about it, but that applies to anything.) I wasn't the one that got the old sub banned. I've never said I was happy that GC was shut down.

What can GC do to distinguish the "evil transes who threaten to rape everyone" from the normal people who just aren't GC?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

I agree with this. There's a lot of things I've seen GC people discuss that I agree with in concept, but they way they talk about it is what drives me away from ever wanting to be part of GC culture (I'm not trans, but my sister is and we have discussions about this a lot). The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying.

It's honestly just not healthy to, dude. The responses to even this post, where I'm only asking if GC wants to be associated with this sort of behavior, I'm being called annoying and stupid. I don't think it's annoying and stupid to ask, and I don't think GC shouldn't be "allowed" to call me annoying and stupid, but I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

It's a problem for both sides, to be honest.

I agree with this. I've debated with people in trans communities as well, and I've seen plenty of rudeness there as well. But maybe because there's less unified opinions than there is in GC circles (it seems no two people have the same relationship with their own transition, or with the people they interact with post transition), but when someone is rude to me on most trans subs, there's at least other trans people who have also stood up for me, who tried to empathize where I was coming from. I've had multiple trans people message me and try to encourage me not to take my bad experiences as a sign that all trans people are equally negative...

I don't see this happen in GC circles. While trans people can be rude, there is at least a pretty wide swath of the community that will acknowledge that it happens and try to openly fight back against their own community to reclaim a less hostile narrative. I don't see this happen in GC circles. I rarely see any GC person even able admit GC has ever done anything to exacerbate the hostility at all. It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable". As it sounds like you've experienced, any GC people who do try to counter the narrative tend to get shouted down and accused of not being "real" GC.

So like... I agree with more GC positions than I do greater trans positions (like transwomen in sports ect), but the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash. So I have more actually enjoyable conversations with trans people than GC people.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I wanted to stick around. I was really excited to find this sub, after it vanished from reddit and made a saidit account specifically to be able to chat here. But after slogging through and trying to respond to everyone here, only to be told over and over that I'm just annoying, stupid, rude, incapable of answering questions (tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer), incapable of forming arguments (even when I'm not trying to argue at all), and that if GC is rude to me, it's because I deserve it... I don't really know why anyone would want to stick around. I feel like I've just gone 10 rounds with my abusive gaslighting mother who used all the same lines on me ("I'm not abusive, you just deserve it for being stupid; if you can't answer for things you didn't even do it means I'm right; I'm actually the victim and you're attacking me" ect.) That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile...

If you ever find a sub where people can talk about GC stuff while also acknowledging the problems in GC, please feel free to message me. I'd love to participate. But this sub is not fun to participate on, and I am not surprised non-GC people do not stay long.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't say I'm shocked that few non-GC people are motivated to stay long. Unstructured debate where people degrade to insults tends to just feel like fighting.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. Well, thanks for responding, even if it was annoying for you.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did you make a post about gc women being rude and then have the nerve comment asking if we (gc) distinguish between the trans people who send death threats ans the ones who don’t?

I made a post asking about gc/rudeness. And in follow up to a response that suggested "it doesn't matter if we're nice, they will send death threats anyway", I asked for clarification as to whether they distinguished which trans people did what. I am glad I did, too, as I appreciate the clarification it received.

But just because not all trans people are sending us death threats, that doesn’t mean we feel inclined to sacrifice our rights and spaces to the ones who don’t.

I never said you should.

Are you able to distinguish between rude and polite gc people?

Yes. You have been rude and insulted me. worried19 did neither, and was still able to communicate her answer well. I would say she was very polite, articulate and answered in good faith. It very much helped the discourse run smoothly.

You just said that on the old sub you saw many of us getting along and being courteous- so why are you even asking this question?

Because everyone seems to be getting meaner and I am curious if it's intentional or not.

If I meet a TW who can leave women, our language, our spaces, our sports, etc alone- he’d have all of my respect and there’d be no resentment or rudeness towards him.

I mean, you are even being overtly rude towards me, and I'm not even a TW, nor have I said women should have to give up any of those things.

You seem to think that sending threats and verbally harassing women who don’t agree with TW is the only way that they are upsetting or harassing women- it’s not. There are myriad ways that even the nicest, most self aware even gender critical transwomen are still offending and oppressing females.

That’s still invasive. That’s still infringing on our rights. And they get treated as such by us

Am i making sense?

Yes.

EDIT:

the reason other users are saying your line of questioning is annoying is because you refuse to answer our questions or address our points.

Also, you keep saying this, and I keep re-reading and I'm trying to answer everything in good faith. I'm sorry you're getting annoyed by this. What question did you want me to answer, that I might have missed? Though I don't think my opinions are really relevant when I'm trying to learn about you, I really do want to answer as best I can.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you dense? Sorry that was rude. But that was me being rude. Nothing to do with me being gender critical.

...I genuinely didn't expect a GC person to start insulting my intelligence in the middle of a conversation about how whether GC should be associated with rudeness. Though the mentality that one's behavior should not reflect on the demographic they speak for does help in understand why GC people don't understand why rudeness is associated with them.

I notice that you don’t actually respond to what people are asking you, that could be interpreted as rude. Does that mean you’re GC?

Is this intended to be facetious? Because 1.) I never said "all GC are rude" and 2.) I never said "all rude things are thereby GC". I didn't even say that I firmly believe GC should be considered rude. I asked if the association people make between rudeness and GC was something GC wanted, or did not want. That's all. You are asking me to account for things I either didn't say, or that aren't related to the topic. But I can comb over it and give it a shot, I guess...

Really what are GC women doing that is mean?

I have not accused GC women of doing anything mean. I asked if the association of meanness is something GC finds desirable or not.

Are we compelling speech?

Some GC people take issue with the way some people use words, but I do not think I've seen any significant consensus about how speech should be used in the wider GC convos I've seen. There seems to even be some rousing debate among GC about how they want gendered language used, moving forward. I personally see this as a good thing.

Forcing ourselves into others safe spaces ans sports etc? Denying the lived reality of slightly over half the world’s population? Perpetuating rape culture and homophobia(and sometimes racism)? Are we appropriating the struggles of other groups of people?

While all valid conversations to have, none of these topics are about what I asked, which is whether GC wants to be associated with rudeness, or if they find it to be an undesirable association. This is what is the kids these days call "whataboutism", I think.

Are there any other questions I'm not answering? Because most of them are presented more for rhetorical purposes (ie "why do women owe men consideration"), which I admit, I didn't answer because the implication is that I have an opinion about what women should do. I don't. I just want to know what GC thinks about its own image.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm struggling to understand this, so definitely correct me if I'm understand wrong. When I used to lurk on the old debate sub, I saw many trans people and GC people get along, be courteous and even agree on some topics. It was really nice to see.

Does GC do anything to distinguish trans people who don't send death and rape threats as perhaps not warranting the same treatment as those who do? Because it might "not matter" to a GC individual who assumes all trans people are rapist no matter how you treat them, but I think to a trans person who hasn't harassed female celebrities (which is most of them), it would probably matter a lot to not be treated like one.

Am I making sense?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am saying your line of questioning is personally annoying,

Rats, I was trying not to annoy anyone. It was just something I wondered about. Sorry to bother you.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Doesn't this line

Being considerate does not include giving up female spaces, or accepting the term woman being dehumanised, or accepting males policing my behaviour.

contradict this line?

This obtuse line of questioning exact sort of thing many of us are exasperated with and get ‘rude’ about.

in the first one, you are saying GC is not rude, they're just called that because they don't accept male policing... but in the second line, you're saying "GC is (or can be) rude if they find questions annoying...? Or are you just saying you consider questions like this a part of "tone policing", and thus feel I will consider you rude for how you're responding?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, was that an inappropriate question to ask here?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I consider to be a toxic expectation of niceness in debate is expecting women to not address certain topics that might cause offense, expecting them to use hedging words and sacrifice clarity, expecting them to emphasize when the transwoman they are debating isn’t, and in general holding them to a higher standard than the transwoman they’re debating. One of the effects is silencing women.

I would agree that expecting women to remain silent where men are not would be silencing to women.

Do you think there is a baseline of consideration that men and women should equally be expected to maintain for decorum, or would it be ideal if no one had any expectation for consideration in social situations?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There can be people who say rude things- that’s not gender critical. That’s a rude person.

There have been plenty of rude and even violent transwomen

Are you saying "neither GC nor trans people are rude inherently, but some people in either demographic can and do behave rudely", or are you saying "GC people aren't inherently rude, but transwomen are"?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women not batting eyes and cooing pretty please is super rude apparently.

I didn't suggest this.

Disagree with a man? Extremely terrible manners and you have no basic decency.

Nor this.

Disagree with a transwoman? So rude and an act of hatred and spite because you are mean spirited and cruel.

Nor this.

Disagree with a libfem? Wow that’s rude. Is it really necessary for you women to speak if what you say is not a lovely ‘yes!’?

Nor this.

Is it possible you're extrapolating more from my post than I have said?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure. Are you trying to say that, for you, being considerate of others is akin to having your rights eliminated?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure how to address your points other than to say "thank you for responding"? - you answered a question with your perspective, which is all I was curious about. I don't see a reason to argue with opinion - I accept that you "refuse to be quiet". I don't have any desire to tell you you can't.

you believe no one should have to accommodate anyone?

That isn’t what I said at all.

Hmm. I got that from when you said this:

Women are expected to be overly accommodating. When we refuse to be quiet, to soften our language, to put other’s feelings above our own

I guess I was just assuming you thought "refusing to be quiet" was a more desirable behavior. I guess I should ask - Are there demographics that should "speak softly", or do you feel "being accommodating" and considering other people's feelings is generally negative for discourse?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. So you do not perceive anything rude in the GC community at all. I accept that.

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't say you owed anyone anything. Am I interpreting your answer correctly in that you prefer the association of "rudeness" as a counter culture to what is normally expected of women?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Should all people approach the advancement of their demographic with this sort of mentality?

Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association? by LemurLemur in GCdebatesQT

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. So for you, the terse way GC people speak to one another is ideal, and you believe no one should have to accommodate anyone?