Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Are people with CAIS male or female? Doesn't CAIS challenge binary sex?

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T22:34:08+00:00

I apologize, but that was not helpful at all. And this one here:

What determines sex, phenotype or chromosomes? Yes.

Sounds like a "how many x do you want? Yes" meme. Not an actual answer.

How are XX males without SRY males? Depends on the individual symptoms of the condition.

Please explain how, according to those symptoms of conditions.

What is their sex? Female.

Why?

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T22:22:49+00:00

You didn't answer any of the questions in the post.

You're refusing to answer those questions about intersex, which is why they continue using intersex for their arguments.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T21:39:37+00:00

And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

Which I mentioned. And is "invasive", but we should do it.

Both males and females with CAIS are looking like a female when born. To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive

Since checking a newborn's genitals is as "invasive", but doctors should do it, doing x-rays and blood tests on newborns is "invasive" but they should be done.

And as I said, it's funny you use the word "invasive". People literally bathe newborns, and touch their naked bodies while bathing them ... You can't get any more "invasive" than that. But x-rays and blood tests are where you arbitrarily draw a line? Yeah I'm not buying that. If people get to bathe newborns, then x-rays and blood tests are nothing compared to it.

But why do it for every kid if only one in few millions girls born will have it? Why do it on rest? It is not saving anyones lives and can do harm - either physical or psychological. Why are you so obsessed with this question about extremely rare condition?

Eh. CAIS are all males. There are no "females" with CAIS. That's what I learned. None of the people with CAIS have internal female sex organs. And they. Have. Testes. Which doctors usually remove because they are underdeveloped and turn cancerous.

They should test everyone for whether they have DSDs or not, because I think it is worth it. I can just imagine talking to someone, who I think is one sex, but turns out is another sex. That's so "invasive". Making me and others use false language because to you these people pass as the opposite sex, and you think "it's invasive to test on newborns".

That one in two millions women who have completely female phenotype, was raised as a girl and maybe not even knowing themselves about their condition, is someone with CAIS?

CAIS are male. Not female.

Just because they think they are female, or pass as a female on the outside doesn't make them female. You say they are no different because they can't impregnate ... so you're saying males who have no penis or testes are not different from females ... so they are females ...

By that logic, a "trans woman" who chopped his dick and testes off, and on the outside totally passes as a woman due to hormones, is a female because he can not "impregnate". Do you hear yourselves? CAIS individuals are males with no penis and testes. Their "female phenotype" means boobs, and maybe vulva. They have no internal female sex organs. They are not females.

It's better to test on newborns to know if they have DSDs so people don't go lying to kids they are a sex they are not, like the case with CAIS who think they are women eventhough they aren't. It doesn't give the kids identity crisis. It doesn't make other people use false language when referring to the kids with DSDs. And when these kids grow up to date, they don't have to test then. They already know they have DSDs and what their actual sex is so they can tell others about it when dating.

Just doing ctrl+F on "?" showed me there were few.

...

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T20:51:41+00:00

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids.

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

That's definitely "invasive", but should be done. We can't say "omg it harms kids to look at their genitals, what are you, you a pedo? omg!! omg omg".

You know what's invasive? Not doing tests, thinking someone with boobs is female eventhough they have testes and letting a lie continue around in circles. Yes. People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male. Usually the testes are removed because they are underdeveloped and could turn cancerous. Doctors KNOW all the CAIS individuals are male. But either they don't tell the family, or if they do the family lies to the kids with CAIS that they are girls eventhough they aren't.

Want to know what's even more invasive? Not doing tests, telling CAIS people they are women eventhough they aren't, and when they come to the realization, it's too late. Speaking for myself, if I learned someone I thought was a "she" was a he instead of a "she", I would feel totally disgusted for the deception.

Or I can imagine if I had DSD, but found out about this way later, I would be very very angry because it means I did not know myself and the issues I had, all because of people like you advocating for doctors not to do more tests at birth to find out if someone has DSDs.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD. This is outright disgusting and horrible. Making people use false language because you think "it's invasive to look at the genes and organs of kids, to figure out they have DSD". You must be a liberal.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

People like you are the reason we are in this mess right now.

Anyway, there is no way testing kids to see if they have DSDs is invasive, just like vaccinating kids is not invasive, or bathing kids is not invasive, or examining kids' blood to see if they have other diseases is not invasive.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

Lmfao what questions? "Why are you ignoring all the questions and answers" was the only one repetitively being asked. Please list the other questions here if there are any, because I saw none.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T19:37:01+00:00

No one can even know that they are male, including themselves

Now we know.

But if you mean they themselves don't know, that's worse. Either doctors chopped the testes of males with CAIS (with or without family's request), and told the family who later on lied to the males with CAIS that they are women eventhough they are not, or doctors chopped the testes of males with CAIS and did not tell their family.

They (doctors, family, etc) should test whether or not someone has a DSD in hospitals before or after birth. Once they know someone has DSD, they should inform the family. The family shouldn't lie to the kids with DSD that they are a sex they are not, and should wait until they are in a stage of development capable of understanding this, so they can inform them of their actual sex. That way we won't be in this mess.

You are acting with her like an abusive person, so of course by your complete ignorance and repeating same questions over and over and ignoring her arguments you will make a person to write with caps lock or be mad at you. Such actions are either making you a troll or abusive narcissistic person who only wants things "your way". So it is showing you from a very bad side.

Discussion is when two people speaking and not when one is answering questions and other ignoring all answers and all questions. Sub is for discussions.

I didn't ignore. They answered my questions, and I understood. The only part that needed addressing, I addressed.

They didn't ask any questions for me to answer them.

I just disagreed on some things. It's so much easier to happily nod when ideas are brought forward, without disagreement. But I don't have better things to do at the moment and had to share my disagreements.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T18:12:05+00:00

I ignored the rest because you answered the questions and revealed people with CAIS are males. That was the only part that needed addressing.

I don't care that men with CAIS were raised to think they are women and everyone around them is so stupid to think they are women. My view is truth is better than lies even if it "hurts".

And yeah, please continue calling anyone who disagrees a troll. Amidst the caps locks and extreme shouting in your comment, I didn't once call YOU a troll. It's hilarious.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T18:03:56+00:00

So now you're saying there are more than 2 sexes, 3 to 42 sexes. GCs keep contradicting themselves ...

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T17:58:39+00:00

In general, we are accepting people with CAIS as women in society, but as males in healtcare. They were raised as normal and regular girls, everyone thinks they are girls/women, because in everything but inner biology they are like girls/women. So it would be extremely rude and unethical to out them to everyone but closest people and medical personel.

You say this is not like "transwomen" eventhough it is. Just because people with CAIS think they are female, doesn't mean they are female. That's gender identity for you.

They have no female sex organs? Then they are male, and I'm not using she/her or woman for people with CAIS.

If it's not rude to call a "transwoman" he/him, man, and male, it's not rude to call people with CAIS he/him, man and male.

You sound like trans right activists. "Trans people are not under an obligation to tell you their sex, you should address them by their pronouns and preferred gender if they pass, and it would be rude and disrespectful not to" has become "people with CAIS are actually male, but identify as women, so you should address them the way they want, and it would be rude and disrespectful not to".

People with CAIS do not have female sex organs. Even if they have boobs, and pass as a woman, they are not women. Just like a "trans woman" that passes is not a woman.

People with CAIS are either male or female. They don't get to lie they are female/women when they are not, and make me or others change the way we speak, just like "trans women" don't get to lie they are female/women.

I don't think you understand how morality works either. If I see someone that passes as a woman, and I use she/her for them, but later on find out they were a man, I would feel deceived. It's not different when males with CAIS do this, and make everyone think they are women/female when they are not.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T15:21:43+00:00

More questions for GC, because mods keep removing when I post:

Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Are people with CAIS male or female? Doesn't CAIS challenge binary sex?

People with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have male chromosomes and a female phenotype.

What is their sex?

That requires an understanding of what determines sex in the first place. Is it chromosomes, or phenotype? If it's chromosomes, then people with CAIS are male, despite having female phenotype.

If it's phenotype, then people with CAIS are female, despite having male chromosomes.

If it's both chromosomes and phenotype, then people with CAIS are male and female at the same time.

Please let me know which one is true.

And also why CAIS does not challenge binary sex?

When people can have variations of primary sex organs, secondary sex organs and chromosomes (which they call intersex), sex becomes a spectrum?

Someone could have undeveloped female sex organs, but developed male sex organs. If sex is a binary, it would be really difficult to determine what their sex is when their sex organs are so mixed.

This person says intersex people are nonbinary, neither man, nor woman, no matter what gametes or genitals they have and are a third sex: https://imgur.com/MERbsgr

Intersex people are where I understand the concept of nonbinary (a third sex). Someone naturally has very atypical hormone levels leading to abnormal secondary sex characteristics, has ambiguous genitals, and appears genuinely androgynous due to an intersex condition? I can completely understand why they feel the most comfortable saying "I don't want to be called a man or a woman", despite what gametes they produce.

Intersex are not male nor female? Just because they think so?

I remember in the wikipedia article on sry + xx males there was mention of xx males that don't have the sry gene too (how are they males then?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

It says that about 10% of XX males do not have sry.

If sex is a spectrum, intersex and regular people can be some of these things, 1) male, 2) female, 3) more female, less male, 4) more male, less female, 5) neither male nor female, 6) male and female at the same time.

And if sex is a spectrum because of the variation we see for primary sex organs and chromosomes, then if a man takes hormones, removes his sex organs, and a neovagina is implanted in him, he becomes 1) less male, more female, 2) less male, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

And if a woman takes hormones, removes her sex organs and a neopenis is implanted in her, she becomes 1) less female, more male, 2) less female, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T12:29:59+00:00

I never got handfuls of answers to these questions ...

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T11:54:48+00:00

I definitely posted this here after you removed my post. I also posted in gendercriticalguys to have a higher chance of getting answers, and didn't get any.

CAIS was being discussed in that other thread, but noone answered my questions properly. They kept ignoring them. "Why don't you go ask CAIS whether they are male or female?". They and the links you left said CAIS individuals have male chromosomes but a female phenotype, but never answered if that means CAIS are male and female at the same time, whether sex is determined by phenotype or chromosomes, etc, etc. Just because CAIS are "raised as females" doesn't mean they are actually females. That's gender identity, they believe they are female, but that doesn't mean it matches with their actual sex.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T01:17:14+00:00

Okay?! I don't care if you report. Go talk to the mods. Not my fucking problem they remove my posts and leave me without a place to ask my fucking questions.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-15T01:13:24+00:00

I've already posted there. The mod removed it because "we've been asked these questions many times before", that's why I posted here instead: https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/7vgy/gc_is_sex_determined_by_chromosomes_or_phenotype/

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-14T20:30:42+00:00

You haven't answered my previous questions: Are CAIS male or female? Are they male because they have male chromosomes? Or are they female because they have a female phenotype? Which one would be true?

the conflict between their sex chromosomes and phenotype

Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Intersex people with CAIS are chromosomically male and phenotypically female. Are they male and female at the same time then? If they are just one of the two sexes, then should we go with chromosomes or phenotype?

Depending on the answer, I think your "morality" differs from mine. To you, people with disabilities never do anything bad. If someone with a disability says they are able-bodied, it's automatically not a lie and it's a good thing to do.

But I think it's a lie and it's deception. If sex is determined by phenotype, then CAIS are female, and not male no matter what their chromosomes are, and if they tell me they are male, that would be a lie.

If sex is determined by chromosomes, then CAIS are male, and not female, and if they tell me they are female, that would be a lie.

And by "everyone" you really mean you, and that you take it as a given that if you're really, really curious to know something about others, then none them have any right whatsoever not to divulge to you the information about themselves that you desire to know when you stamp your foot and demand they come clean and cough it up.

They want to feel comfortable right? Why should I feel uncomfortable when they say they are something they aren't (a lie) just because they feel comfortable that way?

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-14T18:29:17+00:00

They don't have to say they have CAIS. But they will have to say their sex. if I meet a CAIS individual that tells me they are male eventhough CAIS are female, then I will feel deceived and lied to.

And if they say they are female eventhough CAIS are male, the same thing happens. Everyone has a right not to be deceived and lied to like this. I don't want to use false language. If CAIS are female, I will use "woman", and "she/her" when talking about them. If they are male, I will use "man", and "he/him". It is like if I meet a "trans woman" who "passes". If he doesn't tell me he's a man, then he's withholding information from me, and making me use false language such as "she/her". This would make me feel uncomfortable just because they don't want to feel uncomfortable.

So are CAIS male or female? Are they male because they have male chromosomes? Or are they female because they have a female phenotype? Which one would be true? Nobody has answered this question so far.

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-14T16:49:31+00:00

Why is it "unethical" to determine the sex of CAIS people? How is it as unethical as or more unethical than determining the sex of regular people when they look at their genitalia?

Are CAIS male or female? If someone happens to want to date a CAIS individual, they should know if they are with a male or female, or at least might be curious to know. And I think it is unethical for them to be told "we can't test if you're dating a male or female because it's unethical". Which sex are they and how do we know?

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-14T07:23:31+00:00

Its only a very few that can't be classified one way or another.

But it still means there are intersex people who are neither male nor female. They have no sex?

IWoreWhat · 2021-05-14T06:39:16+00:00

Ask them (only if and when it’s relevant).

No I meant how do you determine whether an intersex person is male or female. The intersex person might identify as something, like transgenders do. But how do you determine they are actually male or female? Their sex organs and chromosomes are ambiguous, so how is their sex determined?

IWoreWhat