GC: Why aren't trans men allowed to have their own spaces?

Genderbender · 2021-01-31T06:18:11+00:00

Trans men are not female and that is the point. There is a thread on Reddit titled Trans men of reddit, what problems do you deal with that people of other identities don't know or think about?. Here is a quote from a comment:

One final thing I'd like to say has to do with what I call benevolent transphobia, which is when people believe that we are men, sort of, but more like men-lite or "good" men who have been socialized as women, which lends us all of our positive characteristics that they value, and which off-set our negative man qualities. An example of this is when people say that trans men are better than cis men because we understand what it's like to be women - no, honestly, I do not. I only know what it's like to be dysphoric in a woman's body.

Yes there are some experiences exclusive to people AFAB, like periods. But when trans men experience periods, they experience it as trans men and may be different from what cis women experience. For example in this article, a trans man wrote:

A period in and of itself can be uncomfortable for any individual, and being transgender adds another emotional layer to that.

The reason I brought up trans women is because if trans women started replying about not being allowed to show their breasts and trans men called them out, GC would make a post about how trans women are evil, narcissistic, AGP, etc. Yet when cis women do the same thing they get upset when trans men call it out.

This is why I can't stand when GC complains trans women talk over trans men. I mean, if one group is talking over the other it should be pointed out, but when trans men point out GC talking over them, GCs get upset or don't use the criticism to change their ways. Like, don't criticize people for something you do yourself.

I edited my post to finish the sentence that somehow wasn't typed. Thank you for pointing it out.

Genderbender · 2021-06-07T17:23:12+00:00

Anyone who has a female gender identity.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T19:19:48+00:00

Agender is part of the nom-binary spectrum. So that means you can't call yourself male or female anymore.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T23:37:50+00:00

People who aren't trans are cis.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T22:48:45+00:00

Here are some examples of cis privilege:

I can use public restrooms that match my gender without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest
I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression.
Strangers call me by the name I provide, and don’t ask what my “real name” [birth name] is and then assume that they have a right to call me by that name.
I can reasonably assume that my ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of my gender identity/expression.
I have the ability to flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that my biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause my partner to question their sexual orientation.
If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that one gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment, or that all of my medical issues will be seen as a result of my gender.
My identity is not considered a mental pathology (“gender identity disorder” in the DSM IV) by the psychological and medical establishments.
People don't speculate that my gender identity is a result of abuse or trauma.
I have the ability to not worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail or prison that is incongruent with my identity.
I can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share my identity.
Hollywood accurately depicts people of my gender in films and television, and does not solely make my identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.
I will not be harassed by the police or denied services at a bank or other institution because my legal sex does not match my gender presentation.

Genderbender · 2021-05-19T02:13:59+00:00

Women do not present a threat to men, or other women for that matter.

So women never physically harm other women? Gotcha!

Female trans people occupy the same role as female people in general trying to play nice with the patriarchy to gain male respect or establish how "not like other girls" they are.

Trans men can't be "not like the other girls" because they are not girls to begin with. They're boys/men.

Genderbender · 2021-09-09T23:11:35+00:00

Trans men who physically transition and pass are not female.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T17:53:28+00:00

There is no such thing as "women who present as men." They are men.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T01:02:51+00:00

We call them cis.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T22:16:27+00:00

Young girls should not be subject to strangers vaginas either. Why are parents even bringing their young children to a naked spa?

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T06:28:51+00:00

If women with vaginas are allowed to be nude in the area, then I don't have a problem with allowing women with penises, or anyone else for that matter, to do the same thing. If nudity in general was not allowed in the area, then the trans woman was exposing herself and it would be no different than exposing yourself on the street. In that case, she definitely should be charged.

Genderbender · 2021-06-17T04:15:08+00:00

I am against sex-segregated spaces in general. That said, no one should be naked around a bunch of strangers to begin with just to change. But since that's the case, I don't think it matters who you're naked around, you are still naked around a bunch of strangers.

Genderbender · 2021-06-09T00:43:43+00:00

Yes it produces serotonin.

Genderbender · 2021-06-08T04:19:18+00:00

I will in the morning.

Genderbender · 2021-04-25T17:01:45+00:00

If both males and females can use the same stalls then a certain number of males will plant cameras in those stalls.

In that case you prosecute men who do that.

Reporting someone after they've already committed a sex crime doesn't prevent the crime from happening. Males commit virtually all sex crimes. Segregating toilets and changing rooms based on sex prevents most sex crimes from happening in the first place.

Look, we can't prevent everything, The better option would be to actively prosecute sex crimes. Yes, we need to work on improving that but that's an issue of it's own merits.

Genderbender · 2021-04-25T02:20:05+00:00

I am a natal female, and honestly I see no point for sexsegregated spaces. For instance in a bathroom, there are already stalls, so why should it matter who is in the next stall if they are not harassing you? I live in the US and stalls have huge gaps on the bottom and top of the walls which I hate, so there is little privacy anyway regardless who else is in the restroom. As for locker rooms, you are changing in front of random strangers to begin with. Why should it matter who that stranger is? I think locker rooms should also have stalls because there are people who are uncomfortable changing in front of others regardless of the sex of everyone in the facility. This would solve a lot of issues.

Also, we consider trans women a group of women, not a group of men.

Genderbender · 2021-01-31T15:29:30+00:00

They are female. I don't care if they acknowledge it or not as it doesn't change that they remain female. I am not going to lie for anyone, including these adult human females.

Biologically, yes. But socially they are men. For instance, I am a cis woman and so are most GC people (although they don't use the term cis). Although we are both biologically female I don't agree with many of the things they say about trans women. I don't feel trans women are oppressing me. But I don't go on Ovarit and other GC spaces telling GCs they aren't oppressed by trans women. It's their spaces. They can speak about the oppression they face as GC women, as long as they don't speak for me and cis women who don't want to be spoken for. Trans men should be able to discuss their oppression without cis women interfering.

They experience it as female people as female people are the only one who can menstruate. Had they been men they would never have menstruated even once in their life as men never menstruate.

They experience periods as men.

Me hating getting periods has an emotional layer to it too as I hate knowing I can get pregnant. Female people can have all sorts of feelings (including wanting to be a man), and it doesn't make anyone a man.

A trans person's experience with periods and a cis person's experience with periods are entirely different.

I wouldn't. Many adult human males who want to women are AGP though but that's just a fact, just like many adult human females who want to be men are AAP. I am not going to ignore facts just because it hurt their feelings.

Many would though. For example, there is a thread on Ovarit titled TIFs need to notice how little TIMs actually care about them.... They literally discuss how trans men only ever complain about trans women harassing them and not trans men and when they point it out they are silenced. GC has numerous times made posts about trans women talking over trans men, even on the old GC sub. Yet somehow its OK for cis women to talk over trans men, and when trans men point it out, they are called misogynists. It's a double standard. If you support trans men calling people out, you can't decide which groups they are allowed to call out and which groups they aren't allowed to call out.

Genderbender · 2021-07-02T16:47:27+00:00

Anyone who identifies with their birth sex is cis.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T21:12:09+00:00

Your privacy isn't violated. Restrooms have stalls.
No one is saying women aren't harassed.
Trans people aren't lying about their name. People can change their names.
Women, and men are fired for transphobic comments, not for stating biology is real.
No one is forced to sleep with anyone. If you aren't attracted to trans people, that's OK.
Yes but something called discrimination exists.
No, you consider transgenderism a mental illness.
Taking hormones to appear another sex or removing breasts is not the same as chopping off an arm. Is getting a nose job a mental illness? Cis men live without large breasts so they are not essential, and people have beards so creating a beard is also OK. I am mentally ill myself and do agree there is a stigma around mental health. But wanting to physically transition doesn't necessarily equal a mental health issue.
No one should accept being assaulted by anyone, and violent offenders need more monitoring.
Trans and NB people are still underrepresented in the media.
See above.
Where did I say I have the police called on me?

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T03:24:10+00:00

Deaf and HOH people often use the term hearing people to refer to non-deaf/HOH people.

Yes we disabled people may use the term able-bodied and abled.

We do use the term non-Jews, because most non-Jews don't know the meaning of the terms goy/goyim. Goyim means nations in Hebrew, but Jews use the term in their communities to refer to non-Jews.

Cis merely means you aren't trans. Transgenderism is not a mental illness. Many trans people physically transition and most are satisfied with the results. Some regret it. I am actually mentally ill. I have bipolar, OCD and ADHD.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T03:03:41+00:00

Many groups have names for "outsiders". The deaf call hearing people hearing people. We call non-disabled people able-bodied. Jews call non-Jews goy/goyim.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T02:58:31+00:00

Neulisa Luciano Ruiz was killed after using the women's restroom. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/transgender-woman-killed-puerto-rico-after-using-women-s-bathroom-n1142661

Lauren Jackson suffered a broken jaw and fractured skull after being beaten by a man for using the women's bathroom https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/01/idaho-man-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-after-beating-transgender-woman-over-bathroom-use-on-oregon-coast.html

Jazmina Saavedra, who's running for US Congress in California's 44th District, filmed herself yelling at a transgender woman for using the bathroom at Denny's

https://www.businessinsider.com/dennys-transgender-confrontation-in-viral-video-2018-5

Yes, but people who significantly deviate from gender norms are more likely to experience discrimination for being GNC.
Um, no. Trans women aren't males, and they may have legally changed their names. Do you pressure cis women to tell you what their maiden name is?
We are saying your are privileged for being cis, not for being female. Cis men also have cis privilege. Trans women are not automatically believed about whatever they say.
I've dated a post op transman in college.
Health care workers should respect a conscious patient's pronouns and provide gender affirming care.
I myself have got help for a few medical conditions as a result of self-diagnosis. But transgenderism is not a medical condition.
This is why we isolate actual rapists.
It's race and gender intersecting.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T01:38:49+00:00

Then eliminate sections.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T01:38:16+00:00

There have been cases where trans women were beaten for using women's bathrooms. I'm female and I don't use restrooms or locker rooms based on my sex.
This is something trans (and gender non-conforming) people experience more often.
If someone tells you "X is my name" and you otherwise have no reason to trust them, then you shouldn't question them because their name doesn't match their gender presentation, unless you have an actual reason for asking someone their birth name.
Nobody is saying women aren't discriminated for being female. People have a variety of marginalized identities and each identity has a unique experience. I'm disabled and I went through things able-bodied people will never go through.
I am a straight woman. I am attracted to men, which includes cis men and passing trans men. I am not attracted to cis women and passing trans women. I just don't think if I dated a passing trans man, it is a lesbian relationship. We wouldn't go through the same things lesbian couples go through.
I think ER staff should respect people's pronouns if the patient specifies it, but yes people should be treated in accordance to their assigned sex at birth. Plus, sometimes doctors may just dismiss the condition as a result of taking hormones instead of taking the time to see what the real issue is.
I don't have an issue with self-diagnosis. What I do think is we need to do more to ensure people requesting surgeries will not regret it later. Most people do not regret it, but some do. I have no issues with exploratory therapy to help people explore their gender identity and figure out if they really are trans or not.
People speculate being gay is a result of abuse or trauma. Is that OK?
Women can rape other women too. In any case, a rapist should be highly guarded and supervised, just like any other dangerous inmate.
Growing up I had women role models, Miley Cyrus, Miranda Cosgrove, Demi Lovato, Selena Gomez, Ashley Tisdale, etc. The thing is all of these role models were able-bodied. I'm disabled and we never had an openly disabled role model.
There are issues with how women are depicted. Many movies fail the Bechdel test. Though cis women are better represented than trans people (both women and men).
This specific form of police abuse only happens to trans people. Trystan Cotten, a black trans man, did an ethnographic study of trans men and found that 96 percent of African American and Latino men want to have surgery, while only 45 percent of white respondents do. That’s because a trans history can exacerbate racial profiling. When they pat you down, if you don’t have a penis it’s going to be obvious (or if you’re a trans woman and you have a penis, that becomes obvious). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T00:07:19+00:00

I am disabled and a cis female. Well yes, I should have added "due to my gender" at the end.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T22:46:02+00:00

Why should little kids be taken to naked bathhouses and be exposed to strange vaginas?

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T17:23:17+00:00

Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas.

I am against single sex spaces.

Genderbender · 2021-06-15T20:17:37+00:00

Antinous - Bithynian Greek youth and a favourite beloved of the Roman emperor Hadrian

Pietro Aretino - Italian author, playwright, poet, satirist and blackmailer, who wielded influence on contemporary art and politics

Louise Abbéma - French painter, sculptor, and designer of the Belle Époque

Emperor Ai of Han

Lord Byron - English poet and politician

Jacopo Bonfadio - Italian humanist and historian

Rosa Bonheur - French painted and sculptor

Francesco Calcagno - Franciscan friar famously executed for blasphemy and sodomy by the Venetian Inquisition

Mervyn Tuchet, 2nd Earl of Castlehaven - English nobleman convicted of rape and sodomy and subsequently executed

Petru Cercel - Voivode (Prince) of Wallachia from 1583 to 1585, son to ruler Pătrașcu cel Bun

Genderbender · 2021-06-15T16:32:00+00:00

Leonardo da Vinci was likely gay, though he was celibate in his life. Barbara Gittings from the Stonewall riots was a cis lesbian and so was Sally Ride, America's first female astronaut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gay,_lesbian_or_bisexual_people

https://www.advocate.com/world/2016/7/08/20-lgbt-people-who-changed-world#media-gallery-media-11

Genderbender · 2021-06-09T16:09:46+00:00

I don't think hormones caused or contributed to him being aggressive.

Genderbender · 2021-06-09T01:27:28+00:00

So? Why do you constantly want us to answer for what people say on ovarit? You’ve been told we aren’t a hive mind monolith but still act as if we are.

GCs say they are not a hive mind but when there is a post for example like this where a trans man is stalking someone most of them jump in to say trans men should not have access to T. Granted, I know not all GCs are hivemind. Here is a comment from the thread:

This is obviously terrible but am I the only one confused as to why everyone is blaming testosterone for violent behaviour? Violence in TIFs if hardly common it is feels like baseless speculation to say HRT makes women violent. It also removes responsibility from violent men by suggesting that they have no choice but to be violent because its "in their nature" or because all men are somehow born violent. Violence is always a choice regardless of hormones.

That's exactly what I am thinking. Granted, the hive mind thing is probably just an Ovarit thing. s/GenderCritical called out Ovarit users when they wanted to ban all forms of plastic surgery. Some GCs say they don't like the tone on Ovarit. I do think Ovarit is mostly a hive mind, based on the threads I read there.

They take testosterone to induce desired cosmetic effects claiming the cosmetic effects ease their mental distress. It’s absolutely nothing like inhibiting the reputable of serotonin.

But we are all taking these medications for one very basic reason: to be mentally healthy.

Prescriptions handed out to every Jane, sally and Harriet are so far removed from a comprehension of what the prescription is doing to their body they might as well be on different planets.

This is why doctors should explain medications to their patients. Patients are responsible for understanding their condition, what the meds do and deciding if this is working for them.

Genderbender · 2021-06-08T20:43:12+00:00

All drugs have side effects. It's up to the person taking them to read the labels, use the drugs responsibly and inform their doctor of whatever side effects. I take a medication with a black box warning. Should I stop taking it just because some people abuse it? Taking prescribed doses of T to transition isn't abuse.

Genderbender · 2021-06-08T15:45:12+00:00

What about them? What does female violence have to do with anything?

This is male violence. Anyway, the reason they posted about him is because he's trans. If he was a cis man or a cis woman, this would not have been posted.

Do you think anyone is saying that testosterone is the causative factor in crime?

A few users are saying T made him violent, which I think is ridiculous. 1st, women already have some testosterone. 2. By their logic, men with low testosterone or trans women taking estrogen and testosterone blockers are naturally less violent. But they insist trans women have the same rate of crime as cis men. I wonder why since he has low testosterone. Maybe we should have a high testosterone defense for AFABs, like we have an insanity defense?

No, grown adults shouldn’t get access to any drugs they want just because they want them. The average person is not educated or intelligent enough to responsibly fuck with their endocrine system.

T already requires a prescription. I understand many GCs are against physically transitioning minors. But why shouldn't adults get to decide if they want to transition or not?

Pffft sure it’s not substance abuse because she says she’s a dude.

Substance abuse, according to Google, is overindulgence in or dependence on an addictive substance, especially alcohol or drugs.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T14:42:40+00:00

I thought it was great and a well balanced report.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T13:23:33+00:00

I believe sexuality is based on gender presentation, not gender identity. Some trans men are gay, but there was a post on r/FTM to pre-transition gay men asking who they date, because they know gay men will not be attracted to them pre-transition. Likewise, I will not date a female-presenting trans women, but I would date a passing trans man, just like I would date a cis man but not a cis woman, because I'm straight.

Genderbender · 2021-05-25T02:11:07+00:00

But it’s been explained to you that for others, privacy is absolutely a sex segregated thing.

Everyone views privacy differently. I personally feel privacy when only fat brunette people can see me change. Are we going to start segregating people by weight now?

Stalls will not help preventing cameras planted by men.

You're right. Prosecution is the only thing that will stop men from implanting cameras.

Stalls can be blocked by stronger male bodies and now the assault is happening in a locked space.

I support cameras in common areas of the bathrooms (except for the stalls). Anyone who assaults anyone, physically, sexually or whatever will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Genderbender · 2021-05-24T23:27:18+00:00

GB, everyone who reads your posts gets that you are an authoritarian oligarch

For one, I am not an oligarch as I have no power to control the majority of the government.

who thinks people with different views to your own should not have basic rights to things like free speech,

I believe in free speech in the conventional sense. When most people say free speech, they mean consequences for their speech should not come from the government.

bodily privacy and physical safety.

I support bodily privacy and physical safety. I said I wanted separate stalls for everyone. I just don't believe privacy has anything to do with sex segregation.

People who use wishful thinking, costume changes, cosmetics, hormones, surgeries and bullying of others in an attempt to "transition" from one sex to the other, or out of sex entirely, might have a temporary illusion of control - but it's only an illusion, and usually a short-lived one at that.

There are people who are trans for years and it's not an illusion.

Genderbender · 2021-05-10T16:26:37+00:00

Gender is a psychological sense of being male, female, both or neither. Religion is the belief and worship of a god.

Genderbender · 2021-04-27T02:12:23+00:00

But it's not about the other parties present ignoring adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Then change in a stall.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind.

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

Genderbender · 2021-04-27T00:29:32+00:00

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

I never asked men. Most don't seem to care, some point out I'm in the men's room, to which I respond I don't care. A few objected, and I remind them they are the ones who started talking to me. I don't care what men think.

Genderbender · 2021-04-25T17:11:36+00:00

Most rapes don't happen in public stalls and locker rooms. If you want to prevent rape, ban late night house parties. Then criminals have the least chances of raping people.

Genderbender · 2021-04-25T17:08:43+00:00

What difference does it make if the strangers are male or female? You still don't know them, their intentions, etc.

Genderbender · 2021-04-25T04:11:20+00:00

Well, good for you for not finding sex-seggregated spaces necessary, but why do you get to decide for other women what we should get comfortable with?

OK, if you're changing in front of a bunch of random strangers, why does the sex of those strangers matter? You still don't know them and their intentions. Anyway, stalls without gaps with those turn locks that say "vacant" in green and "occupied" in red are the answer. I don't see what difference does it make whose in the next stall if no one can see you anyway.

According to this study males who identifies as trans retain male pattern of crimminality, though. It's worth pointing out the authors only evaluated males who undergone full "SRS", i.e. likely the ones who are more commited to "pass" as women.

If someone is harassing you in the bathroom, their behavior is the problem, not their presence. In that case you should report them.

Genderbender · 2020-10-20T01:23:38+00:00

A straight person is a person who is primarily attracted to the characteristics of the opposite sex. So some men may be attracted to a trans woman who has a penis. He's still straight.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T23:15:19+00:00

If someone says "I'm gay" or "I'm straight", do you tell them "no, you're bisexual"?) You just don't do that.

Genderbender · 2021-07-02T18:46:18+00:00

Trans people do not identify with their biological sex.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T18:45:03+00:00

You don't need to have a gender identity in order to be cis.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T17:34:15+00:00

Males shouldn't have their own facilities either. Just make all facilities gender neutral.
True.
True.
There are numerous instances where trans people are fired for coming out.
That's not the legal definition of rape.
I agree. Many trans people though experience discomfort with the bodies they were born in, so health care professionals need to be sensitive when asking questions. For instance, "what is your sex assigned at birth?" The problem is many GCs are offended in how we would like to go about it. Just look at this thread Taking a stand: I told my gynecologist to take "transgender" off of sex options. My health insurance company has options for male, female, and transgender man/woman/ I don't see a problem with it on the gyno forms. Then they complain about how doctors miss sex-specific health issues in trans people. I know this off topic, but trans people want to improve health care for trans people. GC doesn't like the way they go about it.
Taking hormones to appear another sex or removing breasts is not the same as chopping off an arm. Is getting a nose job a mental illness? Cis men live without large breasts so they are not essential, and people have beards so creating a beard is also OK. I am mentally ill myself and do agree there is a stigma around mental health. But wanting to physically transition doesn't necessarily equal a mental health issue.
People also speculate people become gay due to childhood sexual abuse or trauma. Is that not homophobic?
#thisneverhappens is about documenting trans criminals. Cis people commit crimes too.
True but pop culture influences how society thinks. As a disabled person I would have loved to have an openly disabled celebrity in my teen years so the stigma against disability can be lessened.
You are correct, but cis identities are depicted accurately.
What if the person doesn't believe you are trans or is transphobic?

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T04:10:08+00:00

Then what does cis mean in this society?

Also, HRT is not a hormonal imbalance.

Genderbender · 2021-07-01T00:06:42+00:00

I feel they should be able to use any section.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T23:04:14+00:00

They have rights on paper, but those right's aren't always carried out. Kind of like with other marginalized groups.

Genderbender · 2021-06-30T22:50:32+00:00

They can still be seen, otherwise I would be allowed to walk around in public without underwear.

Genderbender · 2021-06-16T16:29:40+00:00

Not all are from the west. If you read through the list you will find people before the 20th century and who aren't from the west. I even provided an example of Emperor Ai of Han, Or do you think homosexuality is a modern, western invention like you do with transgenderism?

Genderbender · 2021-06-10T18:16:25+00:00

Perhaps yes. Though there aren't many users commenting a contrary opinion.

Genderbender · 2021-06-09T16:08:02+00:00

Many trans men take testosterone without serious health problems.

Genderbender · 2021-06-09T00:47:21+00:00

Substance abuse is the abuse if a substance. Like using excess testosterone for cosmetic effects.

Taking prescribed doses of T for the purpose of transitioning is not "substance abuse".

Adults shouldn’t decide because adults are stupid, selfish, and don’t know shit about their own endocrine systems.

Again, T requires a prescription. Many trans men take T without experiencing significant health problems and are the majority are happy with the results. A few people detransition, which is why adults should think and decide if they really want this or not.

Look at the stats. We dont claim transwomen retain male criminality, we know it from statistics.

But if they are doing HRT they would have low testosterone. Which proves testosterone did not cause this man's violence.

You are as usual taking a comment and instead of accepting it’s talked about as a possible contributing factor, you’re acting like everyone on ovarit insists a drop of testosterone will turn any female into a raging monster.

But I think it's silly they decided T was a contributing factor. There are cis women who commit violent acts, as well as cis men. Why did this case stand out?

Genderbender · 2021-06-08T22:44:06+00:00

You are conflating two totally separate issues: 1) drugs that people abuse because they have mood-altering & other effects they like & which cause them to experience some kind of high, & are psychologically & physically addictive; and 2) drugs that have unwanted "side effects."

Yes, all drugs have "side effects." But not all drugs are addictive or subject to abuse.

Sure, but trans men taking T to physically transition is not abusing T.

Yes, that's true. But women normally have testosterone levels that are a teeny-tiny fraction of the male levels that trans-identified females try to reach & mimic by taking drugs. Moreover, endogenous T produced naturally by a girl or woman's ovaries & adrenals is not at all the same as the exogenous, artificial T mass-produced in factories by Big Pharma.

Sure, but this is what trans men take to pass and to be mentally healthy and not be dysphoric. It's no different than me taking my anti-depressants, ADHD and blood pressure meds.

Genderbender · 2021-06-08T04:49:57+00:00

What about women who don't have that much testosterone and are violent? What about trans women who take testosterone blockers? They are essentially arguing access to T shouldn't be this easy. Shouldn't grown adults get to decide what to do with their bodies?

He isn't "abusing" testosterone. He's taking it for transition. Though his crimes are inexcusable.

Genderbender · 2021-06-01T21:50:45+00:00

I'm not saying the story is made up. I'm saying GC sites like womenarehuman.com have no business pretending to advocate for trans men. Trans men have said over and over again they do not want gender critical activism.

Take a look at r/FTM. There are 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs". There are also many articles on other sites written by trans men complaining about "TERFs" and mind you GCs consider TERF a slur. So that means they don't want your activism. In contrast I found only ONE thread on r/FTM complaining about trans women, yet GCs keep saying trans women talk over trans men. This is obviously a GC concern more than trans men's concern.

To be an ally to a group, you have to listen to actual members of that group, not impose your own ideas. Imagine a white self-proclaimed ally saying "well, that interaction wasn't really racist" when multiple POC say otherwise? Besides the blatant misgendering, trans men are a marginalized community and its rude and gross to speak over people who made it clear they don't want you to speak for them.

Trans men are fighting for better healthcare. Just yesterday there was a thread on r/FTM titled I hate when I feel like there’s something wrong with my reproductive stuff and I try to see what the problem is and how to fix it but everything is labeled as “WOMEN” “GIRL” and “FEMALE.”. I know this is contradictory to what GCs want, as they call for eliminating the terms women and girls for health issues traditionally considered "female" But GCs and trans men have opposite agendas, which is why GCs should never speak for trans men and trans men should never speak for GC. GCs do their activism. Trans men and their allies do their activism.

Genderbender · 2021-05-31T03:08:39+00:00

Ok, then whatever terms trans men prefer for their genitals.

Genderbender · 2021-05-27T00:37:27+00:00

They are only men to genderists. To the rest of us they are homophobic women.

Most of us are genderists.

If no, why do you question us as if we’re intellectually malfunctioning and cannot think anything that isn’t part of gender critical feminism?

Why is this the only men's issue to focus on? Why not focus on other men's issues?

Genderbender · 2021-05-27T00:14:10+00:00

Because that’s one issue that’s not caused by other men, it’s one that’s caused by genderist bullshit like saying homosexual men are bigoted oppressors for not being attracted to the vulva.

It is caused by other men since trans men are men. Even this response shows GCs are ainly about fighting transgenderism.

Answer me. Do you think we’re a bunch of simpletons who can only think about one thing?

No.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T22:31:10+00:00

So, do you think Jane and Helen are still heterosexual and homosexual respectively after their partners' coming out?

Yes.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T15:33:32+00:00

But I never see GCs speak out about other men's issues, like men not being taken seriously when they're abused or BPD in men. This is the only men's "issue" they are in solidarity with men.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T14:42:13+00:00

That's not bisexuality. I'm straight. I personally know a trans woman who I was attracted to pre transition, even when she came out as trans. When she starting transitioning, even though she didn't pass as a cis woman, she appeared to feminized for me to be attracted to her. I'm not attracted to women because I'm straight. I am attracted to passing trans men like Buck Angel.

Genderbender · 2021-05-26T01:02:38+00:00

People are often not prosecuted at all, let alone to the full extent of the law. Saying it will happen is untrue. Saying something untrue is true can be considered gaslighting by all means.

Gaslighting is manipulating someone by psychological means into questioning their own sanity. By your logic, every white lie can be considered gaslighting.

Genderbender · 2021-05-25T00:28:51+00:00

Once again, your response shows that your solipsism is off the charts. The fact that you a heterosexual woman would have sex with a "trans man" doesn't mean that most/all/any gay men will be so inclined. Can you really not see how effing heteronormative, homophobic & sexist it is to base your ideas of gay male sexual tastes & behaviors on what you as a heterosexual woman are into?

Some cis gay men are in fact into trans men. Some trans men are gay men.

Genderbender · 2021-05-24T18:15:57+00:00

Based on what? If women actually behaved like that we'd be rid of all those men's rights groups ages ago.

Trans people did not "rid" the gender critical groups. We just got them banned from reddit. They created Ovarit, and found new homes on spinster.xyz and Saidit. Same for any other hate groups, they will create their own platforms.

Unfortunately only men plan & make targeted attacks on subreddits in large enough groups to get a sub banned.

So you know the sex of all those anonymous internet users?

FYI, sex is only "assigned" when it's ambiguous i.e. never in the cases of transgender people. The terms for the sexes are 'male' & 'female'. You don't ever say "reassigned female after transition", or something equally ridiculous, do you? You don't hesitate to describe an adult human male simply as 'female', if he self-identifies that way.

When you're assigned or reassigned a sex, you have no control over that. When you transition, you have control. No one told you you had dysphoria and to transition. You came to that conclusion yourself.

Genderbender · 2021-05-18T00:15:05+00:00

Trans women aren't men. We define gender identity as a personal conception of oneself as male, female, both or neither.

According to a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to four in ten 40% of women. Are you going to tell these women that they hate themselves?

Genderbender · 2021-05-17T05:37:55+00:00

I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone. You keep saying you care about all social issues, not only feminism. If that is the case, then why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes? Sorry, but this sound quite colonialist to me.

I'm a non-English speaker myself. My parents are from another country and I speak another language. Я сетим согласна.

This of course will require changes in English as well as other languages. I find it offensive you think all non-English speakers should think the same.

Besides, what would be the purpose of this change? How would this help to eliminate sex inequalities? Using only gender neutral language means invisibilizing women and women's issues because men are viewed as the default. You'd be only making more difficult to talk about sexism and misogyny.

We don't use pronouns based on race or disability, so why use gendered pronouns.

Genderbender · 2021-05-12T11:28:33+00:00

I never said GC was a hivemind. But the fact that there are people willing to spray anyone who appears male in the men's bathroom probably means trans men should just use the men's room, even if cis men don't like it.

Genderbender · 2021-05-12T04:16:46+00:00

It's you who doesn't view trans women as women and trans men as men, but many do. Why is it OK for men to be uncomfortable with a cis woman's presence but not a trans women's presence? It's still the same thing. In fact, your side admitted they will pepper spray anyone who appears masculine, even people AFAB. Its probably safer for trans men to use the men's locker room. And what does this have to do with gay men? I never mentioned gay men. How would other men know he is gay, unless he shouted his sexual orientation to the whole locker room?

Genderbender · 2021-05-11T23:18:15+00:00

What if a bunch of men in the locker room don't want to change in front of a trans woman and complain? Should that trans woman have to change in the woman's room because men see her as a woman and are uncomfortable with her presence?

Genderbender · 2021-05-10T03:28:31+00:00

I guess we disagree. I have and will continue to use men's bathrooms and locker rooms.

Genderbender · 2021-05-09T15:45:11+00:00

ROFL being against trans ideologies =/= being GC. GC is feminist. You cannot be GC if you are against women's rights, because GC is a branch of feminism.

You have a point. But a tent in gender critical feminism is anti-trans views, like believing trans men are women and trans women are men, against allowing people to use facilities that align with their gender identity, etc. Men are more likely to support that than women.

Radical feminism pretty much does.

Radical feminism =/= gender critical. In fact, the term TERF was coined by radical feminist blogger Viv Smythe to distinguish themselves from transphobic feminists.

Feminism nowadays can mean anything from men supporting prostitution and kinky porn while actively sabotaging women's rights, to liberal feminists kissing the shoes of male trans people talking about how valid their ladybrains and makeup make them feel. All of these groups will call themselves feminists, but at some point you have to notice that fixing the actual problems and inequalities women face isn't compatible with a movement engaging in constant gaslighting and apologetics for why said problems and inequalities aren't really a problem, that they are actually "empowering" or that they even count as privileges.

I am a feminist who supports the trans community. I support respecting trans people's identities the right to use facilities that align with your gender identity. I do not kiss the shoes of trans men.

Anyway, there are many different branches of feminism. On another forum I once asked a question specifically to feminists, and a user (who identifies as a cis woman) replied "how can anyone not be a feminist?" Granted they are a TRA site. It's against their rules to misgender celebrities. You can google in quotes "everyone should be a feminist" and find a lot of results. I also heard from other people that men can't be feminists, only allies. Which one is it?

When I was 16 and on the internet, there was an article about the wage gap. I commented the wage gap doesn't exist, and I was wrong. I said women tend to work less hours, but women who work the same jobs and the same hours as men get paid the same. Users started to argue with me I was wrong. At one point I said believe men and women should be paid equally and treated equally, and someone told me I was a feminist simply because I supported equality. So clearly there are different branches and interpretations of feminism.

My favorite branch of feminism is social justice feminism. I know people criticize SJWs, but social justice works to fight all oppression like racism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. not just sexism. They believe privileged people have a duty to dismantle systems of oppression and all people have some sort of privileges and oppressions. I'm white, straight, cis. But I'm also a disabled Ashkenazi Jewish woman. The discrimination I experienced the most is able, so I work to fight that. I experience sexism, so I work to fight that too. While I don't experience racism, I work to fight that and other oppressions by voting in every election, signing petitions and looking at the ways I'm racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. and try to change that. Social justice also believes in intersectionality, the idea that oppressions are interconnected. For instance, women get paid less than men. But WOC will get paid less than white woman. Being gay and disabled is different from being straight and disabled, even if both groups share many experiences with ableism. I fully support social justice.

Genderbender · 2021-05-09T12:14:16+00:00

I meant the teenage boy should change in the stall. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Genderbender · 2021-04-26T02:42:51+00:00

Not all women are abusive to males. Not all males are abusive to women.

Keep in mind this is also a trans men fight. Trans men are fighting for access to male facilities as much as trans women are fighting for access to female facilities.

Genderbender · 2021-04-26T02:30:29+00:00

Why are you against safeguarding so much? This is so bizzare.

Just because I'm against sex-segregated spaces in particular, doesn't mean I'm against safeguarding.

Ah, I see, you are from that part of people, who believe that women are guilty in being raped.

Victims are never to blame for their rape.

Why you can't name the problem? It is males who are raping females. Men who are raping women, in 99+% cases, depending on country. Do not obscure problem, as problem can not be solved if it can not be named.

Women abusing men is more common than that. The problem is men are much less likely to be taken seriously when they report abuse by women. Here's an article on WaPo about trans men. Trystan Cotton is a black trans man and a professor of gender studies at California State University Stanislaus. When he worked at another university pre-transition and presenting as a woman, he was harassed by males and the university reacted immediately, even sending a police escort with him to and from campus. After he transitioned he was harassed at this university by a female student he was mentoring, and his adviser and the dean — both women — laughed it off. Why the difference in responses? Is it because now he's a big scary tough guy who can't be abused by women? While I believe more men abuse women than vice versa, women abusing men is more common than you think. Read this study titled A Review of Research on Women’s Use of Violence With Male Intimate Partners.

One study of 2,991 Air Force personnel who committed physical abuse against a spouse found that 23% of the offenders were female

Studies with college samples also find that men and women commit similar rates of physical aggression (Cercone, Beach, & Arias, 2005) or that a higher prevalence of women commit physical aggression (Straus, 2004).

But many people believe women don't abuse men, especially many (but not all) gender criticals. Here is a post from the old GC sub.

Get it through your heads. Women. Don't. Abuse. Men. PERIOD. Women don't have physical power over men. Women are not threatening to men. Women are not a danger to men. Women do not have power over men or advantages over men.

That comment was upvoted by many GCs. The person who wrote the next comment was downvoted and their comment was removed by the mods.

This is bullshit. How fucking dare you. Women have abused men. No where near the numbers that MRAs claim, that is true. But my mother tried to kill my father and her children because she didn't want us anymore. I have friends who had abusive mothers, who were also abusive to their husbands. And no, our fathers were not abusive. Just because they couldn't match men in physical strength didn't mean that they couldn't cause hurt.

Read this thread on Ovarit titled "Abuse is not "just female related" - it happens vice verse all the time, even if it's not that visual but it hurts even more." Sure, buddy, whatever you say.. They linked to a reddit post where a man says there should be more films and shows about women abusing men. Ovarit mocked the OP, even saying "men actually have the expectation of being treated well" when that's not always the case. Here is an article on Feminist Current making up false statistics on women abusing men.

While in this society it's difficult for female abuse victims to be taken seriously, male abuse victims are much, much less likely than female victims to be taken serious. Just as trans men. They've seen sexism from both sides and can tell you the differences in how they were treated as females vs. males.

Genderbender · 2021-04-26T01:39:51+00:00

And that 85% of violent crimes are done by males, and of them 96-97% violent crimes against females are done by males? That 99+% of all rapists are males and almost 100% of all rapes against women are done by males?

This is wrong.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf

While if stranger is female - most likely you have similar strenght, similar running speed, and that most likely that female have no vile intent at all?

In freshman year of high school I was groped by cis girls in the locker room. They were suspended, but they still were allowed to return to the locker room. No one ever forced them to change in the boys locker room and I had to deal with the fact they could harass me again, Don't assume that females most likely don't have vile intentions at all. That is simply not true.

Genderbender · 2021-04-26T01:32:14+00:00

The fact is, most communal change rooms are open-plan - and due to space constraints, that's how they most likely will always stay. Which means you're arguing that all families who go to a swimming pool or water park together should have to change in & out of their bathing suits with one another regardless of their different ages & sex. In other words, MA moms, teenage daughters & senior citizen grannies should have to be naked in front of MA dads, adolescent & teen boys, & elderly grandpas - and vice versa. As though in families, bodily privacy & sex boundaries should not be a thing.

Then maybe we should have separate facilities based on age as well. Old women go here, young women go here. MA women go here.

Leaving aside female people entirely, as you clearly don't care about the vast majority of girls & women, the policy you advocate would be particularly hard on a segment of the sex you DO care about, namely pubescent & teen boys. Much to their embarrassment, males of that age get spontaneous erections and often find their dicks get stiff & stand up visibly at the slightest stimuli - including seeing their mums & grannies & sisters in their knickers, or sometimes just being in close physical proximity to their female relatives when fully dressed. The young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do. Perhaps if you'd raised some boys you'd know that.

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

And where does your policy leave all the boys & men who feel bashful about taking a crap with their female work colleagues & classmates in the room? And all the boys & men who like to nip into the loo during the day for a stress-relieving wank? Don't you think the policy you advocate would be a discomfiting imposition on them, their privacy, bodily freedoms & peace of mind too?

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

Genderbender · 2022-06-15T04:34:56+00:00

OK, but Cox uses she/her pronouns and everyone should respect that.

Genderbender · 2021-10-03T04:21:27+00:00

1. Is there such a thing as a man who wants to be a woman?

Yes but when someone begins identifying as a woman then they are a woman and vice versa.

2. What’s the difference between men & women?

https://relationship-institute.com/differences-between-men-and-women/

https://askthescientists.com/men-women-different/

3. If “sex & gender are not the same thing” then why do transGENDER people try to alleviate their GENDER dysphoria by taking cross-SEX hormones?

Because presenting as another sex alleviates dysphoria

4. Why is every transgender sex offender male?

Source?

5. If a member of the male sex is trying but failing to pass as the opposite sex, is he “living as a woman” or “living as a cross-dresser”?

Trans men are men and trans women are women.

6. If both gay men’s brains & same-sex attracted transsexuals’ brains have similarities with straight women’s brains, are gay men women, or are same-sex attracted transsexuals gay men?

Source?

7. What word can we use to describe adult members of the female sex, since your ideology insists that ‘woman’ should exclude some adult members of the female sex?

What do you mean? You can use "men" and "women" to describe men and women. If you mean birth sex, you can use "assigned female at birth". "natal female" or "biological female."

8. Isn’t erasing & appropriating the female sex by co-opting the words: ‘girl’, ‘woman’ & even ‘female’ sexist?

I consider trans females to be females so they aren't co-opting anything.

9. a) If the majority of early-onset dysphorics desist before adulthood & end up gay (according to every study on desistance), then isn’t encouraging dysphoric gay kids to transition into being “straight” quite literally gay conversion therapy?

I don't think young kids should be given hormones and surgeries. But pronouns and name changes aren't permanent. Also we do not encourage kids to transition into being straight. We allow them to transition to their desired gender. Trans men can be gay and trans women can be lesbian.

9. b) If desistance is natural & cures dysphoria, while transition isn’t & doesn’t, then why encourage transition & discourage desistance, instead of the other way around?

We don't discourage desistance. If someone wants to detransition or desist altogether, it's their choice. On the other hand, I can find posts where GCs pressure their friends or family members to desist when they don't want to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/g5lkqo/how_many_years_does_it_usually_take_a_tif_to/

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/41108/how-can-i-dissuade-a-friend-from-becoming-tif

10. Is exclusive same-sex attraction “transphobic”?

No. You can't control who you're attracted to, and it's fine to refuse to date or sleep with anyone for any reason. But trans gay men have the right to be in gay male spaces like gay bars and trans lesbians have the right to be in lesbian spaces.

Genderbender · 2021-07-11T17:05:36+00:00

I use the term males to refer to trans men. I use AMAB or natal males to refer to cis men. Being attracted to one gender makes you monosexual.

Genderbender · 2021-07-11T05:07:10+00:00

Yes I was in college and he attended my school.

Genderbender · 2021-07-11T03:24:28+00:00

The only trans man I had sex with is post op trans man and it felt great.

Genderbender · 2021-07-11T01:57:14+00:00

But I am attracted to males only. Cis males and trans males.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T22:43:52+00:00

We all define our sexualities differently. For some, sexuality is attraction based biological sex. For others, it's attraction based on gender presentation. Each persons sexual orientation should be respected. If someone says they're straight, they're straight. If someone says they're gay, they're gay. If someone says they're bi, they're bi. Some lesbians are attracted to women AMAB and some gay men are attracted to men AFAB. It doesn't lessen their homosexuality.

Trans men are men, but butch women aren't men. Trans women are women, but effeminate men are not women.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T17:43:02+00:00

My sexual orientation is not universal at all. Some people are not attracted to trans people and that's OK. We can't control who we are attracted to. I don't agree not disclosing your birth sex is rape though. For one, many GC people claim they can tell apart neo-genitals from natural genitals, So they will likely realize the partner is trans anyway before sex. 2nd, if you were already attracted to the person and had sex with them, why does finding out they 're trans afterward make you no longer attracted to them. I do think trans people should disclose, for their safety and for the sake of their partner, especially for long term relationships and not just casual sex. To some people, biological sex is important, especially if they want to have their own children. But I don't necessarily consider being attracted to trans people who share the gender you're attracted to bisexual. I consider a cis man and passing trans woman couple a straight couple. I consider a cis woman and passing trans woman couple a lesbian couple.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T17:22:42+00:00

Being attracted to men only doesn't make you bisexual. I have plenty of friends who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, pansexual and trans.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T17:19:27+00:00

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T15:14:42+00:00

I'm a woman whose only attracted to men, so by definition I am straight.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T15:13:30+00:00

There are absolutely sexual orientations other than mine in this world. I'm straight, but there are gays, lesbians, bisexuals, pansexuals and even asexuals.

Genderbender · 2021-07-10T04:36:41+00:00

I think sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to birth sex. I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I don't consider myself bisexual.

I think trans people should disclose for their own safety, and I think disclosure is important for long-term relationships. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it is rape.

Genderbender · 2021-07-05T04:26:08+00:00

A slur is an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo. Calling someone cis is not an insult. Many cis people use the term to refer to themselves, including myself. When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth. It was not meant to be an insult. Cis people do not experience oppression for being cis.

Using terms like "actual men/women" or "normal men/women" implies that trans people aren't actual men/women. I call actual men and women men and women, and use cis and trans when the sub-categories are relevant.

Genderbender · 2021-07-04T15:23:29+00:00

Plenty of trans people have called themselves their biological sex. Blair White has recognized being a biological male, Buck Angel has recognized being a biological female, are they cis according to you? You shouldn't make special rules just for non-trans people.

Yes, they recognize they were born male or female and have sex-specific internal organs but that's not how they primarily identify. On medical forms, Buck will likely check "female". On census and other forums, Buck will likely "male". If you ask Buck if he's a man or a woman, he will answer man. Buck also does not claim female oppression.

Genderbender · 2021-07-04T15:12:15+00:00

Then what are you referring to by "slur"?

Genderbender · 2021-07-03T17:11:43+00:00

They claim trans women are doing harm to female spaces, not trans men. They claim trans men are trying to escape misogyny or are lesbians in denial, or are fujoshis with a gay fetish, in the case of gay men.

Genderbender