QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To me, these statements illustrate a major difference between the self-concepts of males who "identify as" women/girls and those of us who actually are women/girls. There's a lot more to going through life as a female human being in a female body than just being perceived and treated in certain ways by others.

What does "identify as" women/girls mean in this context? I do not "identify as" anything, which I have said as much before, and I'm fairly sure Peaking has said the same. Using our statements to frame us as males who "identify as" women/girls and then to extrapolate from that framing seems a bit assumptive and misleading.

QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These terms seem mostly unhelpful, because they are so vague--they describe things that are so subjective and manifest so differently as to be seemingly meaningless. We maybe shouldn't ascribe so much meaning or give so much power to expectations regarding clothing, grooming, hairstyles, etc. but people still do. People are discriminated against or treated with prejudice because of such things, which does need some sort of recognition, or else oppression based on stereotypes ascribed to sex is just reinforced, or at least permitted.

QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it comes off as though you are saying females are the ones guilty of dehumanizing males, not the other way around, and that we are the ones who are trivializing what it means to be a member of the opposite/male sex. Which sure sounds like DARVO straight out of the MRA playbook. Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

Right? It definitely would if that’s what I were saying, but I’m not sure why you are interpreting my words as implying females being guilty of anything. Transphobia means different things to different people, some not believing it exists at all, while others feel it’s rampant across life; some people think it’s not respecting pronoun requests, others feel it’s about being refused employment on the basis of ‘being trans’. What QT might call transphobia, GC might not, so in this context, from the perspective of QT, transphobia would be whatever ways GC does not acquiesce to QT belief systems–GC is in opposition of reinforcement of stereotypes ascribed to sex, sexism, and misogyny, at least partly because it dehumanizes people of both sexes, reducing them to cardboard cutouts, as you say–these things that are seen as QT exalting and reinforcing. Does that make sense?

QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure if you're referring to this:

analogous to GC, ideological extremists or anyone else grouping all trans people together as being the same.

But if you are, I should have used an oxford comma to distinguish between Gender Critical, and ideological extremism--sorry about that!

QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

That is what he has in common with women: he experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman. The significance of that is debatable, of course!

I and many other women feel that males who describe themselves as transsexuals AND transgender alike all completely overlook, ignore, downplay our experience as female humans beings and treat US with hostility and resentment. Because you/they cannot comprehend OUR own experience. Many refuse to even acknowledge that we have any inner experience whatsoever that is separate and unique and which males cannot appropriate or simulate.

It’s understandable why you and other women feel that way. We seem to be sharing some feelings in common, though, which I find interesting!

But just because the "transsexual" males you are describing here don't have the same experiences as "most trans people" doesn't mean that the life experience and experience of self of those male "transsexuals" can be assumed to be the same as - or to have any relationship to - the life experience and experience of self of actual women (female people) either.

No, of course not. An assumption like that shouldn’t be automatic, as would be the same as assuming there is no relationship or any sameness of self and/or life experience of women (female people).

It seems to me that you keep taking the experience of male "transsexuals" like yourself and projecting it on to those of us who are female in order to make it appear as though your experience as a specific subset of male human beings is essentially the same as the experience of the world's female people - or at least very, very close. When from my perspective, there's a universe of difference so vast that our experiences are basically chalk and cheese.

I suppose that’s natural with differing perspectives, the same thing might be given more than one explanation or interpretation. It seems like that can even be an issue with facts, in that they’re only accurate from a specific perspective (eg, GC places importance of biology over identity because of femaleness/maleness as functions or biological states of being/existing primarily, but that choice is based on a specific perspective).

QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology by Chronicity in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What are 'trans' people though? It's not very descriptive, other than people 'whose identity/expression/appearance/presentation does not match their sex (at birth)/assigned sex (at birth)', which doesn't reflect the history or reasoning for why a person transitions--and it's the reasoning for transitioning that makes it impossible to group 'trans people' as people with anything in common beyond a vague concept and superficial appearances.

Transitioning because one struggles to live as a member of their sex because of how they look, act, appear, behave, etc. (in other words, because they struggle with being perceived as members of their (birth/natal/assigned) sex) is a completely different experience to transitioning because one feels uncomfortable in their sex-associated social role, which is a completely different experience to transitioning because one wishes they were the opposite sex for some other reason. Thinking of oneself as the other sex isn't necessarily the same as thinking of oneself as trans, but both could happen simultaneously or not at all.

I wonder if 'trans' should just be considered synonymous with gender nonconformity, because that particular aspect of 'being trans' is what makes people 'transphobic'--it's aversion to gender nonconformity. It gets strange the more one resembles the opposite sex because that means one is more gender-conforming for the opposite sex, so transphobia manifests and is experienced differently, if at all. If one doesn't 'pass', then transphobia via Gender Critical-ism is because of reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex, whereas the transphobia a person who 'passes' would more likely experience would be due to a person's or group of peoples' discomfort with someone not behaving or appearing as one would expect a member of their sex to behave and appear.

Saying trans people need to stick together because we are all the same because we are all trans seems analogous to GC, ideological extremists or anyone else grouping all trans people together as being the same. Both GCs and TRAs seem to try to do that, obfuscating the reasoning for why some of us are the way we are and how we came to live the lives we do: they lump the minority in with the majority and call the majority the minority. This is why people 'peak', because they come to understand that 'trans' does not refer to transsexuals or the classic stereotype of a very feminine gay man, but rather people who claim to identify as the opposite sex in order to escape their problems associated with being that person as opposed to anything to do with sex/gender/roles/etc.

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women? I feel like that experience is ignored, downplayed, and/or met with hostility by the majority of trans people (who are not transsexuals) because they cannot comprehend that experience themselves, and there is resentment towards transsexuals like this. Most trans peoples' experiences are not those of transsexuals', so they take the interpretation of their own experience and apply it to transsexuals, then claim that they have the same experience because they don't pass yet they feel they are or should be another sex or gender, so the feeling of dissatisfaction one has with their sex/gender/role is interpreted as being the same, when it really isn't.

We can all support freedom of choice on matters of personal expression or if a person wants to modify or alter their body or appearance, and we can all condemn bigoty and prejudice against trans people, but I have difficulty finding solidarity simply in 'being trans', because that alone is not a universal experience.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's fair. I'm not really sure what more to say on that 🤔🤷‍♀️ just my two cents! 😁

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Where? We're here because everywhere else we'd be banned for "transphobia".

I'm not sure exactly, and that's a good point. I think to stay active here and attract more people, Saidit as a website needs to be made more well-known, and more disassociated from the far right viewpoints that the website attracts and appeals to the most. There is the GCdebatesQT Discord server that seems to be pretty active, though I'm remembering I think they just recently changed rules specifically addressing language that could be interpreted as transphobic. I'm not internet-savvy enough that I can really think of anything off the top of my head.

Yeah, right. We know exactly which side would be one who had to compromise. QT has proven time and time again they are going to compromise in anything.

Maybe! I have no idea at this point, honestly. There are so many people with so many diverse opinions, I believe there are QT people who would compromise--but maybe those sorts of people don't even think of themselves as QT.

Please, provide the receipts of GC sending rape and death threaths, doxing, getting people fired, and physically assaulting QT. Or is that you have different criteria about what is extremism for QT and GC?

No, not different criteria, because extremism can be expressed in more ways than the ones you mentioned. I'm thinking in particular lately about a group of GC feminists and allies targeting and harassing people with DSDs and including them in this overall debate/discussion. This is just a small bit on that: https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/65608/ootl-eli5-genspect-gender-dysphoria-alliance-exulansic-and-karen-davis

Exactly, how are we supposed to argue effectively if we compromise on language?

I would think that would depend on what one is arguing about, and for what purpose--if it's just to argue for argument's sake, or to just 'win' an argument, already holding a firm view of things that one does not allow room for their mind to be changed, then compromising on language wouldn't be a good idea. The argument can continue indefinitely that way. But if the intent is to come to understanding and try to change others' minds, I think compromises and adaptation are requisite. Good arguments are fun challenges to see how one can change another's mind or persuade or convince them of something--like if I'm trying to do that, then to me the ends justify the means, and it's often a fun challenge to figure out how to get my point across and persuade others with limits on what language I can use and how I can use it. The most brilliant, surprising thing GC could do to persuade or 'convert' QT to GC views would be to adopt QT language and rather than use that language disparagingly or making fun of it, making a sincere effort to apply it to GC logic, which is where QT logic breaks down. And the same would be true of QT adopting GC language.

Again, though, it's probably clear I've always been more interested in discussion than arguments. Or I argue in a weird way because I'm averse to conflict with which I associate arguing, so I have to make it not feel or seem like I'm arguing. I'm a newbie compared to most people in this sub, so I might just be completely missing the point lol 😅

What are your thoughts? Dementia care advice for transgender patients by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a really interesting topic, I've been wondering about this and just general aging as a transsexual for a little while, too. From what I understand about preventing Alzheimer's, dementia and cognitive decline with aging, keeping the brain stimulated with new and novel things and curiosities are the best preventative measures, so it might seem like mental inflexibility would be a major risk factor for that sort of decline.

Do you think trans people tend to be more inflexible in thinking and openness to new experiences overall than non-trans people? Do you think maybe only certain types of trans people or people with trans identities do?

I could see people who see themselves as gender fluid or nonbinary as maybe being more mentally flexible and seeking new experiences more so than the average person, trans or not, but those who hold fast to ways they see themselves with less flexibility for evolution of their self-concept being more rigid than most people. But I agree the age of transition, childhood experiences, the sort of life lived and factors like that would probably inform much, like how strong a person's sense of self is.

As far as care is concerned, I'm not sure how to address that--compassionate care might be different from person to person depending on how they see themselves as their brain becomes increasingly dysfunctional.

Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The Discord server seems pretty busy, idk if it's as busy as the Reddit sub was. I try to mention this sub and link it as often (albeit organically) as I can, but I get the impression that people who would otherwise participate are wary of Saidit because they don't know anything about it or they associate it with neo Nazis and Alt Right.

Moving to another platform/website, being able to compromise on language-usage in some way and possibly re-branding the concept of the sub overall would be my suggestions for keeping the sub alive and revitalizing it with more diverse points of view and opinions.

It seems like there needs to maybe be a firm compromise of language for both 'sides'. Also the idea of 'sides' has been bothering me personally more & more, because to me that seems to make it more like a competition, when I feel this really should be a discussion because these topics affect most, if not all of us who participate in them. Spending more time on Twitter has led me to believe that increasing extremism on either 'side' is turning more people off from TRA & GC. It's definitely made me reach 'peak GC', even if I still hold more GC beliefs.

But the language compromise might be the biggest help to attract more diverse views, I think. I realize that language is a significant (if not maybe the most significant) part of the overall debate, and controlling the way others speak and express themselves is a major turn-off. I know the only reason I could even get into having thoughtful dialog here was by censoring myself and trying to use the language of the people I'm speaking with. It's a sensitive subject that seems near-and-dear to most GC & QT peoples' hearts, but being unwilling to make concessions seems to lead to a dead-end.

I apologize if I'm overstepping my bounds, maybe I am misunderstanding the original intent and spirit of this sub--maybe it is more intended to be a place to argue or take out frustration on the other 'side'. But if it isn't, then these would be my suggestions based on my observations in and out of the sub.

"FLEURISTA" presents: Thank You- A Retrospective of Commonality, Connection & Changing Minds (Art exhibition featuring GCdebatesQT) by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you so much! It's been intense!! I'm so ready to sleep for a week straight 😂

Qt, Why is gender so important? by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's a lot to be optimistic about! 😊 or so I tell myself lol

Qt, Why is gender so important? by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe those points are becoming more and more indefensible to more and more people 🤞

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Holy buckets that is sad all around. It's lovely and admirable to think that the way a person feels about themselves internally could supersede or even just dictate the way their body functions, but I don't know how there can be evidence like what happened to those athletes that professionals would ignore. Like in that article they say the trainers and doctors already knew the risks and harm, so they already knew way back then? How does that get forgotten or ignored?

I hadn't heard of Matt Kailey before, but reading his article and then what happened to him... that's dark and really compounds the worry. Hopefully it isn't the case, but I could see just some condition being made up called something like Sudden Trans Health Failure to describe an apparent rise in health problems in trans people and just have that be its own thing so as not to blame exogenous cross-sex hormones or surgical procedures. The lengths so many professionals (and much of the public) are going to to avoid scrutinizing transition-related medicine and healthcare is astonishing.

Both: What do you think of Gender Critical Coming Out Day? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suppose 'gender critical' is just the default view from before the gender ideology and activism, it would maybe sound like just talking about what everyone else thinks but with some distinct/different lingo. Do you feel comfortable talking about your views whenever that stuff does come up (if at all)? I think not ever living or working in a terribly liberal/progressive place plays a huge part of what makes me not worry too much about talking about this stuff and voicing gender critical opinions for that reason too, though, like they already believe that albeit for more socially conservative reasons like you say.

Also... Happy (belated) GC Coming Out Day! 🥳🎉🎂 I celebrated with a cupcake lol

Both: What do you think of Gender Critical Coming Out Day? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good for GC! I sort of just speak in gender critical terms generally in my daily life, though I try to remain mindful of others' feelings and beliefs. But I don't really use the term 'gender critical' much, I feel like it's much more difficult to successfully communicate with labels than with explanations when the subject matter is possibly quite sensitive. It seems like the term gender critical has become emotionally charged for a LOT of people (though maybe that's just online?)

It seems scary for a lot of GC people (particularly women, and especially radfems) to have the beliefs you have, so actually living that way must be even scarier. I hope people feel empowered to come out GC, but in the safest of circumstances.

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think testosterone is generally harder on the body than estrogen for both males and females? I kind of wonder that, though it seems that males generally have bodies made to run on lots of testosterone so it wouldn't be as risky for them to live on it.

Well that's a really good question you asked, I think it should be asked more, honestly. And thank you for saying that, generally speaking I'm a really lucky person, so my health should (🤞) stay gold!

Both: Where do you see the gender wars in 10 years? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hopefully by 2031, most people will be embarrassed about this debate, or may be upset with everyone who played/plays a role in this gender/identity debate. Once the novelty wears off and it isn't seen as cool to be trans anymore, everyone will pack up and store their gender memorabilia between the Beanie Babies and Furbies in the attic, and of course add it to their scrapbooks.

I think most people are already starting to tilt back to gender critical beliefs like they were before, and that will just continue. QT may be able to adjust and evolve with ease, and hopefully it evolves to incorporate GC beliefs. If everyone starts peaking, then I think QT will have no choice but to incorporate at least some GC beliefs and call them part of QT all along. I sort of wonder if that's the most realistic compromise to be made... it has to not be called a compromise, and it can't look like a compromise, so everyone saves face. QT will need to do more damage control since there aren't ways to prove most of those beliefs, so the science and biologic reality of GC will help support that. And GC has the facts and evidence, but not the clout or pizazz of QT, so it will have to be able to somehow make itself look like QT. QT really seems to emphasize just how unique and special each person is, and extrapolating from that GC will say more blanket policies on gender should be done away with because each one of us is unique and special and things like prisons and sports will evaluate people on a case-by-case basis. Maybe.

Sports: I kind of wonder if there will start being trans leagues in sports by then, or starting to have them, and it will just be such a faux pas for a male to compete with and against females in female-only sports. This seems to be happening right now, at least it seems to me. Maybe not, I probably don't read enough news. On top of the shaming, I think males might still be playing in female-only sports, but they'll be more determined case-by-case without the broad policies.

Prisons: I sort of wonder if prisons will do away with broad policies and determine prisoner placement on a case-by-case basis. Males might still be in female prisons, but much less of them, and maybe they'll be in their own wing or something if that isn't done already.

Locker Rooms: I'm not really sure about this. Maybe people (particularly males) will have to jump through a lot of hoops to be granted some sort of pass to access a locker room for the opposite sex. Like it would have to take some kind of waiting period or something maybe kind of like how access to transition-related services and procedures used to be much more difficult.

Child Transition: I think as more people are becoming aware of exactly what child transition entails and its ramifications, there is slowly becoming more scrutiny over this. There will be more protests outside of gender clinics or anywhere that will transition kids. The public criticism and the fallout of all of these kids who transitioned during this period and have grown up will limit access to medical treatment, if not completely ban it (at least for a period of time). Again, I think this will be done on more of a case-by-case basis with more scrutiny of the individual and how they experience their gender-sex issues.

But of course I really don't know at all. I haven't watched this all unfold over an extended period of time, so I am probably wayyyy way off. But it seems like the general public's romanticized image of trans people and transitioning is faltering, and people will come to understand that this isn't just one thing, there isn't just one type of trans person. I hope more research has been conducted by that time, there seems to be a growing interest in it even from when I first posted in this sub asking about it--it's really encouraging, honestly.

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)

Both: Where do you see the gender wars in 10 years? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Like, oh my god, my mom makes people call her "they."

I saw somewhere where someone said the fastest way to end the gender/identity fad is to be embarrassing to kids like this. Nothing that Mom and Dad like is cool, especially if it's supposed to be trendy 😂

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, me too!

I had hyperprolactinemia early on in treatment, but that's the only health problem I know for sure that was caused by the estradiol. I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism early in treatment, too, but my doctor neither would confirm nor deny whether the estrogen caused or impacted that somehow, but I've always suspected it did.

For me, at first they checked hormone levels and other things every month or maybe every three months, but then they got more 'hands off' once the levels stabilized. They were checking once per year, sometimes less often. They really only were checking if it had been a long time, or if something necessitated it, like gauging levels after surgery. My doctor retired just before the pandemic, so I was just getting prescription refills for that year without doing any sort of bloodwork or follow ups. I don't know if it's typical to just let a patient float around like that. But it seems like if you're younger, fit, healthy and don't smoke that at least doctors like my own don't seem to worry much or monitor for complications too closely.

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It sounds like that isn't a question you revisit much, if at all ('was it worth it, or did I make things worse?'). That isn't so much something I really ever ask myself, but I'm more bitter about things not having to have been this way and the gold standard solutions to severe gender dysphoria be limited to surgeries, especially irreversible ones.

It seems like there's a cure and even ways to prevent gender dysphoria or transsexualism from ever happening to begin with, and they seem more tangible the more being trans seems less inherent or in-born, and more a result from an interplay of a lot of different factors for everyone who experiences those things. If I look at surgery as correcting a birth defect, I feel better about it than if I look at surgery as treatment that alleviates symptoms to the point where one might not experience them at all, but not as the cure.

It is quite complicated though, I completely agree. That's why I like to keep digging, there's always so much to learn! Thank you for the well wishes, too, I wish the same for you!

If you're sticking around a bit, I'm curious, and I apologize if this is too personal--of course, don't answer if you prefer not to, but do you attend therapy currently? I just ask because you are a counselor and because I'm just curious to know how much you might delve into those sorts of things--again, sorry, just really curious!!

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is a bit of a weird question, huh? I guess one of the reasons I ask is because of the paradox of having relief, so it's not a problem, and thinking about things after experiencing relief, like thinking about the problem when it's not a problem anymore. I can relate to your feelings of even immediately post-op having difficulty remembering even what things originally 'intact' felt like, and not experiencing phantom sensations or anything like that (other than weird nerve 'zaps'), but then if I think about the context and what it took to arrive at that feeling and now knowing what that feeling is like, it can be a bit much for me.

I guess I am kind of asking how much and what you do think about it now that you don't think about it! 😂 I'm sorry if I'm not making sense

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I take exogenous hormones and had bottom surgery/SRS/vaginoplasty/GCS, and I guess that is the extent of medical intervention. The hormones seemed to help me function better, but I do wonder if that's because of GID/GD/gender dysphoria or if it's because of a different hormone issue... or maybe that issue caused the gender and/or sex issue? I'm not sure how fully developed I was at age 23, but probably mostly.

I don't regret surgery, but I regret the finality of it and that there is seemingly no comparable alternative for those whom it might most benefit. It would have been nice to have been able to make peace with my body as it was, but I can't lament too much because my life is indeed better at least partially because of it. Well, in large part, I think! It let me have more normal relationships and a clearer head, like Gravel Roads said. I date better guys because of it. I don't feel so exposed 'down there'. It's one less major worry. But it is a bit sad there didn't seem to be a better solution or a way to have only done this temporarily. I was fortunate to not really have complications, but my unaltered genitals probably worked a bit more 'naturally', if that makes sense... It's actually rather difficult to remember, too, honestly.

QT: Do you regret any part of your medical transition? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad you've found some peace in your life. If you ever reconciled with your body as it used to be, or if for some reason it eventually felt 'right', how do you think you would feel then? (also, welcome! 🙂)

All: Is gender identity falsifiable? If so, what would disprove it? by Penultimate_Penance in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

'Gender identity' seems to have become a really nebulous term, deviating from older conceptions of it as a self-awareness of one's role as either a man or a woman and that self-awareness being apparent in everything a person does to indicate that he or she is male or female.

If gender identity is just defined as one's own personal sense and nothing more, then it doesn't seem possible to disprove. Previously it seems like personality and physical characteristics and behavior and interests were all supposed to be one's gender identity on display, which is why with 'gatekeeping' people without evidence of that in their lives and personal history would not be approved for transition-related treatment, because their unconscious gender identity does not indicate cross-sex identification, or a gender identity disorder.

So it seems like gender identity as it is defined in more contemporary times is unfalsifiable, but by earlier definitions it would have been easily something one could prove or disprove.

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It took a bit for me to understand what you are saying, but I think maybe now I do (sorry, I'm often a bit dense!)

Is mental illness included in your dynamic component model? I think I understand what you mean by that, like what the concept is that you are formulating, and it seems like it would be, but you're saying not always and not entirely--Is that what you are saying? I'm really sorry, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to be sure I understand you

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry to be so slow to respond, ugh what a week...

You know, I think that's a really good overall point (I think I got what you were getting at! Or I'm telling myself so lol), like even reasons that don't appear directly related to a specific mental health issue are reasons borne of psychological distress or dysfunction. Maybe incomplete understanding is like the one unifying reason not necessarily due to mental dysfunction or distress, like you mention about impressionable and vulnerable populations.

Maybe this will seem like I'm reversing what I said (and maybe I am) but if it isn't borne of mental illness, but rather just erroneous and ill-informed conclusions, then would it ever become a mental illness? Or at what point would it become a mental illness?

Like being a child or adolescent who makes that sort of conclusion, and it's not derived from mental illness but ignorance, then would it only become a mental illness if the child or adolescent eventually learned the truth but still felt the way they felt, just because that's all they knew? I suppose it's a psychological dysfunction of some kind still, right?

Sorry, I'm asking way more questions than answering!! I just originally thought the answer was more clear, but you and others bring up a lot of good points making me reevaluate how I am seeing things. So I'm really glad you shared everything you typed, thank you! 😉

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transgender is gender nonconformity with a twist

This is my new favorite definition of transgender

Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness? by peakingatthemoment in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I pretty much agree with you. I was going to say that all forms of gender dysphoria are a mental illness, but thinking about adolescent and teen girls who are trying to escape oppressive, sexist expectations and treatment--is it an illness to be so distraught as to want to escape that? Or is it only pathological if one would see and seek transition as the solution to that problem? I sort of feel like it both is and isn't an illness, or it's a kind of distress masquerading as transsexualism or transgenderism, so it's labeled as gender dysphoria.

Since people can be trans in so many different ways, I wouldn't think it's necessarily a mental illness. Like Mark pointed out, a person just could say they are trans because they are bored or it seems fun or they want to be silly or cool or just try something new, so being trans in a scenario like that doesn't seem like it would be a mental illness necessarily, though perhaps one might wonder why anyone would jump to being/becoming trans for uncomplicated reasons. Or I might, at least.

Some manifestations of being trans seem outright pathological, but some don't. Being trans because one experiences gender dysphoria of any degree seems like that would mean that manifestation of being trans is pathological, whether very mildly expressed or more extreme.

Everything Else - 18/10/2021 by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I laughed before even looking up Levine 😂 I hope your girlfriend feels better soon, good on you for giving her some humor! I hope you're doing well, too!

Everything Else - 18/10/2021 by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ooo whatcha makin'?? I am absolutely a noob with this stuff, it seems like a lot of fun to play around with (words like sintering and kaolinite sound like serious business, though)

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's incredibly worrisome and angering that that sort of thing is being introduced and pushed onto children early on in their lives. It's intentionally confusing, cruel and I fear that it's like this mass manufactured transsexualism that these kids are being set up for. This is not a good experience, no child should grow up that way and have to deal with the ramifications of that for the rest of their lives. It makes life unnecessarily difficult and painful, and makes it harder for children (or anyone) to love and accept themselves exactly for all of who and what they are. I am sorry I see it that way, but to me it is incredibly cruel or irresponsible at best.

I think kids with dysphoria obviously exist, but I think the idea of gender identity and being trans is something that people should maybe come to on their own instead of it being pushed and taught. I think the concept is accessible enough now that they could learn about it on their own and then look into talking to someone about it, if that makes sense. Like I’d think that’s the way to ensure that the people transitioning will actually be the ones who “need” it instead of people doing things because they were influenced at a vulnerable and impressionable age. Idk if that made any sense lol

That makes complete sense! I would agree, we could even redirect the energy of this contemporary societal obsession with transgenderism and gender into figuring out early interventions to help kids better understand sex and sex-based roles, and prevent transsexualism and/or dysphoria from happening in the first place. I've grown more and more of the opinion that there has to be a way to avoid transitioning, I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

My mom worked with an lgbt center and we were always around lgbt people so I think maybe our parents just thought it best to be upfront. She would always invite the “lgbt orphans” for holidays and sometimes just dinners and stuff. They explained being trans to us specifically because she was (and still is) close friends with a TW and we spent a lot of time together and my mother wanted us to understand. Other than that, both of my parents explained when we asked (in an appropriate but honest way) or when it was necessary (like me coming home from school terrified because my classmate randomly informed me that I’d start bleeding out of my vagina lol). They have always been very open about anything from sex and sexuality to drugs and anything else. I think it’s why I lack any type of filter lol. They always made sure we knew we could ask them anything and be honest about how we felt and what we thought. It’s why when I knew I was bi I had no fear of telling them or dating whoever I wanted. But I acknowledge that I was very lucky to have that and not everyone does. Nobody was inappropriate.

Wow. Your experience growing up in this kind of environment with the parents and adults and kids you had in your life is really amazing to me! That sounds incredibly cool. I mean, maybe it wasn't totally cool for you, but from the opposite side of things it seems like a really great experience to have as a kid, especially growing up as a bisexual kid. Did you ever experience any confusion really at all regarding your sexuality or sex? It doesn't sound like it, but I don't want to just assume... it's just hard to comprehend!

Your experience growing up lends so much more credence to the idea that it's a matter of confusion or misunderstanding regarding sex and gender that is a huge factor in dysphoria or cross-sex identification from developing. You were surrounded by LGBT people and culture and were told about just sex, and you never developed dysphoria or believed you weren't female (assuming again, please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Oh yeah older cousins will tell you EVERYTHING about everything lol

I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family, I hope I haven't corrupted my little cousins lol 😂 Definitely not the best teacher

Im gonna pick a random day and use it as a flair just to see if you notice lol

Challenge gladly accepted 😁

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I kind of see a way to explain this that might make sense that both you and Sloane touched on: I feel like basically as a young child, I accidentally embodied QT. So, the conclusions that QT adolescents, teens and adults make and assert about sex and gender and stereotypes are conclusions naturally reached by a child who wouldn't know any other reality. That's sort of how I see it, because much of what QT espouses is in line with my thinking as a child. That would explain why I feel like those views are immature or 'childish', just because that's the kind of thinking I would have as a child. I think those beliefs only really hold (or hold as best as they can) if there is no other point of reference. So, to a child like that sex truly is just a blend of superficial and stereotypical things that have nothing to do with sex. Maybe that's not the case at all, though, but that thought struck me as I was driving home today.

ETA: OK so maybe QT was derived from the lived accounts told by adult transsexuals who grew up with dysphoria from childhood, and it's all been misappropriated by people who do not understand what this experience is like. So, it's the beliefs and accounts taken from transsexuals, but trying to apply them to people who have not lived with this confusion their whole lives--sort of akin to trying to sing a song of which you know the lyrics, but you don't know the melody. Obviously adults and older kids can become dysphoric, too, but I think the treatment and methodology of how to deal with it is just taken from what is standard for transsexuals who grew up this way.

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would make sense why GC and QT butt heads so so much on this stuff. If most trans people were capable of seeing things from the GC perspective, I think the 'illusion' would cease to exist and it's hard to imagine they would stay trans, or at least think of themselves and others as belonging to another sex or being sexless. Gender dysphoria seems to thrive on the misunderstanding, which is what the previous diagnosis of gender identity disorder highlighted. Part of it is our inaccurate or incomplete understanding of sex, sex role stereotypes and our own sex. I say 'our' as in trans people, I guess that's generalizing, but from my own perspective which I see as very warped I feel like that's maybe the case. But maybe that's totally off, too lol

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I definitely don't think it's the norm, even among those who transition like you say. I would have thought there would be less chance of something like that happening in contemporary times because of the widespread availability of information and the ability to communicate with others, but maybe that's what you're getting at that would make it extra confusing for kids now... which is kind of depressing. Just having more information and people in my life to talk to or teach me things or learn from maybe would have been sufficient to prevent my belief from taking hold. But seeing all that stuff about multiple genders and sex and the differences between them and that sort of thing is even confusing for me as an adult, these poor kids today must be horribly confused and lost. What's weird is maybe both extremes could foster an identification like that, either being totally ignorant or being inundated with information (especially early on). It would have been nice and probably incredibly helpful to know about gender nonconformity and being gay and that sort of stuff, but having the dirge of LGBTQ+ 'information' be almost seemingly forced onto kids like it is now doesn't seem necessarily very helpful either by confusing or distressing them either.

Sex was never made into a huge deal in my family, but we all understood it. I grew up in a more open household (like- zero boundaries lol) so maybe my brother and I had a more thorough explanation about sex before we started school, but even at school the other kids understood sex. I learned about periods from my classmate well before my mother intended to talk to me about them lmao. And my brother had a girl in his class explain that she had a vagina and babies came out of it. And then she showed her vagina. That kind of thing actually happens fairly often with younger kids. Most kids do understand that there are differences between boys and girls, even if they don’t understand with any nuance or detail.

That's really interesting, I do wonder if I had siblings or older cousins if I would have learned more or been taught about that stuff. It sounds like you grew up in like the complete opposite sort of environment regarding that sort of stuff, that all sounds so strange and unthinkable to me! Was sex and peoples' sexes not a taboo subject in general, like even outside of your home? I can see kids being curious and exposing themselves like that, but were adults also relatively open? Obviously not exposing themselves (I hope!)

And now I have to convince myself not to make my flair LittleKidLover lol

Probably the best decision, although I secretly want you to because it really would be hilarious 😂

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

True, I would think you're mostly right about that for sure

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body?

No, not that I'm aware of. Maybe that isn't true, but I genuinely am unaware if they did. For context, I grew up an only child in the 90s in a rural US Midwest home in a very socially conservative environment without many people, let alone children, around. We didn't have a computer or the internet until after I was like 10 or 11, and we never had cable TV so there wasn't much opportunity to be exposed to that kind of learning.

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

Well said, that might be the most accurate way to elucidate this: issues women face directly as a result of their sex might resemble some issues that transwomen face as well, but it wouldn't be for the exact same reason. For women, it's because of their biology, their sex, and for transwomen it's because of homophobia or misplaced misogyny, and maybe many if not most transwomen draw the conclusion that we're receiving what appears to be similar treatment and share what appears to be similar experiences, but they aren't for the same reason, so that's where transwomen mistakenly believe it is. That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe.

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most kids can probably tell the difference that way if it's presented to them or they are somehow made aware of it, even just noticing. I indeed had a very isolated and sheltered childhood without other children around most of the time, so I didn't really have lots of opportunities where I could learn that difference. If my parents tried to teach me at some point, I have absolutely no memory of it, and based on what my mother has told me it doesn't sound like she or my father ever tried to make that clear. It's actually still surprising to me that children so young could recognize the difference between sexes and understand the physical differences between boys and girls, just because that was completely foreign to me.

You might be right then, maybe that is the only sort of scenario where one would genuinely believe they were they opposite sex, and it would probably be a very uncommon one. I haven't met anyone who came about that sort of conclusion in that way, but from experience I can say that it can indeed happen! lol

And that doesn't sound creepy at all lol just steer clear of ever using a Michael Scott-esque username like 'LittleKidLover' and you're golden!

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me. I didn't have a reference other than superficial appearances (clothes, hair, grooming) for the difference between girls and boys, women and men, so there was no real reminder for me or reinforcement other than some adults trying to remind me that I was a boy. Children are really ignorant of much of the world due to the nature of human development, so magical thinking and that sort of behavior are common. So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

I'm not sure how people who feel they need to go to great lengths to pass understand they are the sex they identify as. I had always thought the whole point of transitioning was so one didn't have to try so hard to just live life. Not needing to really change much about myself to always pass was precisely even more evidence to me that of course I am supposed to be a woman.

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have a harder time understanding how older kids or teens or adults come to that conclusion, but I think it just has to be sort of a peer pressure by way of uninvited affirmation.

Like, many people have told me I have blonde hair, even though to me it is clearly brown. But so many people for so long have insisted that I have blonde hair that I can't help but conclude that I must have some kind of blonde hair, even though I still can't really see it... well, I think I can see it, because now I'm looking for whatever it is that others are seeing, and any bit of evidence supports that, I suppose. If I, in my heart of hearts, wanted to be a natural blonde, then I would maybe really lean into what others were telling me and be thrilled to tell the world I am a natural blonde and have that listed on my IDs and even join a 'blonde pride' social group, but it doesn't matter to me so I just don't care whether my hair is blonde or brown.

I would think the same would be the same for sex. Like, a person must already have some sort of doubts or feeling that they would be happier as the other sex or no sex or both sexes, that it would feel 'right' or better, so any affirmation would be fuel for the belief that you are that. There must have to be something that's 'off' for one to feel like that to begin with, in some way. Like, something or someone maybe puts that idea in someone's head and for some people they become fixated on it and the idea becomes more real.

Does that answer your question a bit more? People really seem to latch on to the 'identity' part of 'gender identity' and 'gender identity disorder', which makes me wonder if that's the common thread: that everyone who concludes they are the opposite sex (or they're trans, or have no sex, or are of both or more sexes) has some sort of malleability in their overall identification as a person, or just who they are.

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally missed this! That's awesome! 😄 Welcome back to life! lol How did you celebrate?

Identity by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If an identity is taken to mean just the summation of what or who someone or something is, if one really sees their being the opposite sex as a fact, then they would just see it as a fact. I believe that can be the case, especially for children. But that would be maybe just the idea of identifying as something. To identify with something or someone, I would think it's just recognizing similarities or feeling connection or kinship or something like that, like noticing one has more traits that seem to be common with the opposite sex--that person doesn't genuinely believe themselves to be a member of that sex.

But I think that's part of the conclusion that dysphoric children reach that Peaking touched on: as a child, you might conclude you are the opposite sex because of the similarities you see between yourself and members of that sex, or all of the stereotypes and generalizations attributed to that sex. For me, it seemed like the whole world was constantly telling me in many ways that I was a girl or supposed to be one, so that's the conclusion I made.

Why should an adult or anyone who knows or knew better identify as the opposite sex? I'm not sure. For me, it is a fact still that I was supposed to be born a girl (or so I was repeatedly told), like a matter-of-fact medical fact which I find impossible to ignore. I took the idea that I was supposed to be born a girl to mean that I am supposed to be female. Maybe it isn't true for others, or it's too general to apply to most trans people, but somehow a person must be convinced in some way that they are or are supposed to be the opposite sex (or have no sex, or be both)--and it's easier to be convinced of something if everyone is telling you or demonstrating to you that it seemingly is the case.

Affirmation seems to be the key to perpetuating and strengthening any beliefs, so affirming 'woman' or 'man' as an identity that one has that might not match their sex makes sense how even someone who never believed such a thing about themselves would grow to see that as a fact. The whole concept of 'cracking eggs' is a great, albeit horrifying demonstration of that.

Both: How would you define my sexual orientation? by theytookourjerbs in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow. It's bizarre how convoluted and varying those answers are compared to the simple, direct ones here that are all the same answer (from the GC side anyways--I would agree, too)

Both: How would you define my sexual orientation? by theytookourjerbs in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really needed a laugh today, Sloane, thank you 😂

GC: What do you think about the concept of peaking people? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aww well that's very kind and optimistic of you, thanks! That would be nice. And I really can't blame you for wanting to maintain your privacy, I'd feel the same if everything hadn't sort of taken a life of its own lol

That is absolutely what makes me so worried, Worried... what kind of undeniable harm will it take? If amputations, irreversible surgical procedures that are regretted; exogenous cross-sex hormones that cause developmental abnormalities and health problems; biological males in women's shelters, prisons, restrooms, spas, sports, etc.; medical and even social transition of kids that will affect them the rest of their lives aren't enough to make people stop and think about all of this and more, it's scary to think what would.

QT/Trans: What do the language changes actually accomplish? by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ruined lives, ruined reproduction systems, stunted emotional and intellectual growth, and so much more are the fruits from this twisted tree of false-knowledge.

I think the realization of everything that one has done can be too devastating to confront for some. I'm finding it difficult for myself, and that's being stuck in it for nearly my whole life--I can't imagine how difficult it is for others who had mostly normal lives before to realize what irreversible changes have been made. It would make sense that when faced with the prospect of confronting the full reality of what has happened, people would strongly resist that confrontation, and if there are all of these people with amputations and developmental abnormalities from caused by exogenous cross sex hormones, it would make sense that they would fervently police others as well as each other.

That's a good point about the internet, I think that and particularly social media have been arenas for manipulation on a grand scale, and refugees for anyone wishing to escape their own reality. Agreed that probably nothing in the short term can lead to long-lasting happiness or peace.

GC: What do you think about the concept of peaking people? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see how it would be awkward to bring up too much of that stuff around people who are really unaccustomed to it, that's what would keep me from introducing the topic. Since most of your friends and family members aren't in tune with this stuff, which position do you think they would all lean? Do you think that if your family were to be introduced to this stuff that they might encourage you to transition or try to convince you that you're trans?

It would be interesting to find out what your friend knows and doesn't know, and what his position is on this stuff! If he's wearing Harry Potter t-shirts then I would imagine he isn't too invested in trans and QT beliefs, or at least associating with those communities or too many of those kinds of people. What do you think you would say/do to try to peak him?

QT/Trans: What do the language changes actually accomplish? by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Actually, you saw better than you're giving yourself credit for! I was meaning the creative analogy, and you put that quite well I think. But I can see how your second analogy works, too, but I would say while drug addiction and creative expression are fostered by control, the addict is trying to escape reality more than make their perception of reality real, while the creative individual isn't trying to escape reality so much as bring their fantasies and imagination to life. If control of other people is the objective, then the addict analogy seems more appropriate... but perhaps under the pretense that attendance to the show is optional. For me, the draw isn't control in a general sense, but rather the 'creative control' that the creator has to make fantasy a reality.

I think there is a perception of reality that is being 'manufactured' by QT that makes people think their perceptions designate reality, and that ideas are facts. I like that you bring up the concept of making oneself their own god, I think that's unspoken and intuited by people, and very much why I think TRA and QT are so attractive to people: your perception of reality IS reality!

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahhh I totally almost linked a Mitch clip too!!! Wasn't sure if anyone here would dig it, he's one of the few comedians I'll watch/listen to (RIP)

That joke... 🤦‍♂️😂😂😂 that was pretty good lol

Do you usually work on a lot of projects at the same time? Hard relate though, I don't even know how many unfinished canvases are laying all over the place collecting dust in the studio lol that's sweet of you to give your creations away though! The recipients are very lucky

Well I looked up huntsman and that was a hard NOPE. 🕷😱 lol I can totally understand the snake preference now.... ughhh spider hairs caught in the fabric?? Good lord

Thank you! The show hasn't actually taken place yet, it will run for the month of January (and possibly February?) but I'll definitely share the link to the virtual version of the gallery! I want to run the show under my Fleurista alias and share the link publicly, but if I can't obscure my identity well enough then I will share it via DM with anyone who asks (if I trust you!)

GC: What do you think about the concept of peaking people? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense, I can believe it since that's kind of what happened to me, too. All they (the trans community) had to do was tell me to respect pronouns at all costs and inadvertently point me in the direction of Ovarit.

QT doesn't seem particularly conducive to thoughtfulness, as in like really sitting and thinking about things, because you're right, questioning things doesn't seem encouraged despite appearing like it does. And if one does question aspects of it, they do indeed seem to end up in places like this 😉

That's definitely happened online, thanks to the no-good, dirty radfems who have brainwashed me 🙄 I kind of just laugh it off, it gets annoying otherwise. Although it's exasperating sometimes since it doesn't take much to be accused of being transphobic and totally shut out, which is actually the kind of thing that helped peak me. And to be fair, because I do question everything I do ask myself if I am being transphobic--I suppose I am, or appear so, since I criticize and have some very strong negative feelings about transgenderism and gender ideology. Not towards the people themselves, or at least the people who aren't hurting others. It hasn't really happened since I quit being so active on Reddit and don't post in any trans subs really.

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Bad jokes all DAY, please 😂 Those made me facepalm and giggle, definitely the best kind of jokes lol

I am amazed at how productive you are, and super creative to boot. Your home must be filled with all kinds of amazing things like a super cool gallery, I hope you put your creations out into the world! They really always sound so cool and unique! Being in Australia, I'm sure you take extra care to avoid snakes while sewing🐍🧵

I'm sorry for the lockdown (again) and having to wait so long for the vaccine, that's really disappointing... hopefully it gives you extra time and space to just keep creating more amazing art 🙂

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ooo OK that's my next show for sure, I love me a smart, witty show!

Isn't it? Amy Sedaris's humor SLAYS (as does her brother's), but more than anything I hope that video inspires you to be extra vigilant the next time you go to pick up crêpe/creepy paper. And of course on the lookout for snakes.

That put a big smile on my face! 😊 Idk why but that song is just so endearing, it makes me want to give everyone a big hug! Tell your husband I'm very flattered, he must have excellent taste too then!

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Right??? They've totally still got their magic! It takes me back to middle school playing my ABBA Gold CD to death, I will never not love ABBA
  2. Xanadu is LIFE!!! 😍 I'm so sorry, Sloane, but also, you're welcome. I hope the movie gets you and your husband groovin' in your seats! 😁 I mean I can't help but dance around like a drunk toddler whenever it's on

GC: What do you think about the concept of peaking people? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know if I have ever really peaked anyone. I would like to think that maybe I've gotten people who know I'm trans to give thought to trans rights activism and gender ideology, just by not going along with it and criticizing it. For those who don't know I'm trans, I think it's not something I would really dare to bring up or talk about for fear of being labelled a transphobe and facing the negative reaction that label permits. I never talk about pronouns or gender identity or even gender really, just biological sex when it's relevant, avoiding enabling or reinforcing QT and pro-trans rhetoric or ideological beliefs.

But I agree with other commenters, I don't think there really is that much one has to do to peak people other than sort of gently guide them to see the problem themselves just by presenting it without much explanation. At least for people who are impartial. To peak QT-leaning people, I'm not sure what that takes--perhaps something more drastic?

QT/Trans: What do the language changes actually accomplish? by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's always been the aspect of QT where I see the most appeal: being able to shape and/or escape reality by making it possible for anything to be anything. But of course that can't really happen if others cannot be controlled, because they are part of reality, too.

QT: Why do you care so much if other people believe your chosen "identities"? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, thank you, I sort of suspected but thought I'd share as a QT substitute 😅

That said, it almost seems like it's an issue about being reminded of one's reality, having a lack of control, or maybe both. For some, perhaps transition is an expression of someone trying to control their life, or something/someone in their life, and every facet of the whole experience is about some attempt at control of some kind. One really would have control over their transition up to the point of having to interact with others, which is where the problem seems to be for some people.

And I do believe more and more that a root issue shared by everyone who does transition, and why there are more and more people who are doing so or being subjected to medical, legal, social and psychological interventions in the name of identity affirmation, is an intolerance to one's reality, or just reality itself. Transition can provide an escape of sorts from reality, and not having one's identity affirmed brings people back to a reality that they find intolerable. I'm not sure if that's accurate, maybe that's just extrapolating or projecting from my own experience, but I suspect it to be at least somewhat true for others where identity would matter (excluding people I think don't really care for themselves, and rather just want to be supportive to those who do)

Everything else! by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yesssss Sloane!! Levity FTW💙

Speaking of bored, all I'm reading lately are federal and state hemp regulations for work. Solidarity! 😂 I really can't remember the last time I read a novel...

Re-watching What We Do in the Shadows the series, highly recommend to anyone who needs ridiculous humor in their life. I'll have to check out Dead To Me, it looks rather good. Of course, always watching short, dumb YouTube videos, as needed for longevity.

I'm obsessed with the new ABBA song Don't Shut Me Down, plus Give A Little Bit by Supertramp and Xanadu by ONJ & ELO since I keep seeing a street by that name lol

That sounds like a particularly positive new thing! 😊 I have a lot right now, but overall being in a big city away from where I grew up has been amazing, loving my new life

I don't know any jokes, because, as everyone well knows, I am a deeply serious person--instead I will share a very important safety video for anyone entering the dangerous world of crafting

QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reddit has a lot of problems, but this is a really interesting, well-compiled database of desistance, detransition and puberty-blocker effect studies: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/wiki/studies

I've been going through it this evening as it's pretty new to me too, and one of the best studies where I could see the statistics is a follow-up study from 2008 of girls with GID: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2007-19851-005

This study provided information on the natural histories of 25 girls with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 8.88 years; range, 3-12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 23.24 years; range, 15-36 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation. At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis. At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria

I'm actually still going through it all, but I'll bring up better/more links. The synopsis of each study in that database is quite helpful and succinct, though.

QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions by SnowAssMan in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

It seems like the issue is that it doesn't appear torturous because those kids might be very happy to transition, so it looks positive that way the way that LGB affirmation looks, but LGB kids don't undergo the procedures and permanent alterations to their bodies and lives the way that children who undergo transition do, just to be themselves. Given the rate at which kids desist, and looking at how many people detransition, it does seem a bit cruel to assume that these kids won't desist and push them through transitioning.

QT: Why do you care so much if other people believe your chosen "identities"? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perhaps this isn't what you are referring to, and I do sincerely apologize if it isn't, but it's so important to me that others see me as a woman so I can blend in and not be harassed like effeminate gay men are in my experience. It is mostly about practicality--and this is mostly referring to strangers or anyone who doesn't know my history. I don't really care if people who know my history see me as a woman or not, because that's never really been an issue. I was generally treated poorly when I was a young adult prior to transitioning, just a continuation of how I had always been treated, so that's what my mind snaps back to and I get a bit panic-y at the thought of being perceived as a man by everyone.

Additionally, I think before it was also so important to me that people see me as female due to the nature of my condition and delusion (I know the sub discourages using that word, and I am really sorry if that bothers anyone, I can change/delete it if it's inappropriate or too hurtful--but that is how I've come to understand this condition for myself, I am not suggesting at all that trans people are delusional, just me). Believing I was, and later that I was supposed to be the opposite sex played such a big role in how my personality developed that I literally felt crazy living with a body that didn't develop correctly (as I saw it). It doesn't feel good to feel crazy, like you are genuinely insane, so being read and acknowledged as a female made me feel better because it made me feel less crazy, like living this way seemed 'correct'.

Both: What do you think about the arrest in the Wi Spa transgender incident? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What really bothers me is the number of people who attacked the women and girls who were the victims of this incident, going so far as to claim that the whole incident was a transphobic hoax made up for the cameras. Others claimed they were unfairly persecuting some unsuspecting trans woman

Same!! I'm so angry about that. POS sex offenders and predators hiding behind these laws makes my blood boil enough, but everyone just launching into 'save the whales transgenders' mindsets instead and being willfully ignorant of the actions of people like that drives me fucking crazy.

And I hate that you're almost certainly right about the media avoiding mentioning this development. It's so depressing.

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! Yes, it will be like a sort of an interactive, 3D Venn diagram, I'm thinking--we'll see if it materializes that way! But I want all the input I can get

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All such reports must all automatically be true then, no?

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great answer--I'll give it a shot! Love The Secret reference, too 😁

An attempt: Facts over feelings, Pen! But more seriously, the conclusion is what matters most anyways because we don't really know if the base feelings are really the same amongst everyone. My feelings of happiness could feel totally different from your feelings of happiness, so drawing differing conclusions makes more sense than everyone reaching the same conclusion. Because we reach different conclusions, we must have different feelings, right? That's the only way that there would be trans people is because they must feel differently, otherwise everyone really would all be trans or there would be no trans people at all. In fact, that's why there are so many genders and sexualities that we are still discovering. How could that happen if people truly were feeling the same?

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're probably right. That's fitting that ideology based on change would even change their own ideology!

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The problem is accepting that everyone is who they say they are. I'm trying to sort of point out that it's impossible to determine by that logic whether someone is being genuinely transphobic or not, because if someone says 'trans women are not women' but also says they identify in some way differently than how they were 'assigned' their sex, then that would make them trans, and therefore they would not be exhibiting transphobia but rather internalized transphobia. When trans people exhibit transphobia or what is perceived as such is usually interpreted to be a manifestation of internalized transphobia and warrants pity, but when non-trans people exhibit or say the exact same things, then that is just plain transphobia and warrants aggressive action against 'bigots'.

I'm sorry for the confusing example, I was sort trying to show how the basic logic of blindly accepting whoever says they are trans that they indeed are, that we can all be trans and therefore no one would be expressing just transphobia, it would be internalized and would warrant more compassionate treatment rather than just hostility and aggression, threatening to cancel bigots, etc.

Hopefully this clarified my point and didn't just make it worse!

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Imo gender identity as a concept in academic and identiying as in gender identity are distinctly different.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. The word 'identity' is what seems to obfuscate things and make it appear as if those were the same things.

Imo identifying as x or y is just a personal completion of this strain and transition routes we take and fairly nebulous.

Is that a formal identity then that one takes on? Like something one would announce or disclose?

I myself identify for practical and utility purposes, consistency and a nice time in society because of how the body i am now happier about looks after transition. While i respect people's identities, imo it would be socially stupid for me to identify as either a man or non binary and cause all kinds of problems i have no time or energy for.

That's interesting, so you don't formally identify as anything? I believe you said you were MTF in another comment, I'm curious how you conceptualize yourself if that's the case. It seems like actually forgoing a formal identity or making claims to one would be the most honest approach, like just letting one's actions speak for themselves like Houseplant touched on.

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yay! Thanks for visiting! 🙂 I was never on the original sub, so it's been really fun and interesting meeting 'old schoolers' like yourself! That's really cool that you volunteer to help people. Congrats on the promotion/new job, that's exciting!

The vibe on this particular sub might be a little more mature or serious than in the Discord server, but I feel like it doesn't usually get too heavy and we're all pretty cordial with each other (even if we argue lol).

You seem like a really fun, interesting person to debate/discuss with! I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on the topics we discuss.

Since you opened up questions, how have your views changed over time from spending time in these debate spaces? Did you always believe what you believe now, or feel how you do now?

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, like in this context it's just being. The 'identity' part of gender identity seems like a really unfortunate misnomer, or maybe not misnomer but something very specifically defined differently than the way it may be more commonly used. I just read this old paper from 1977 wherein the author attempts to define it:

masculinity and femininity represent two ends of a distribution, and they refer to this distribution as gender identity. Gender identity, then, refers to the self-awareness of one's role as either a man or a woman and is apparent in everything a person does to indicate that he or she is male or female.

The important point here is that we are not considering masculinity or femininity as unitary concepts. but rather as characteristics which a person may have varying amounts of. Also, gender identity includes a wide range of behaviors, besides sexual preferences.

The concept seems like just an attempt at interpretation to explain behavior, not what or who a person actually is, even if they believe they are the other sex (or species or race or nationality or whatever else a person may 'identify' as). A person could think of themselves in a certain way, but that seems like a different kind of identity than some (un)official identity.

It might sound jaded but I don’t take anybody at their word on anything, really. People are constantly showing us what they really believe and it’s often at odds with what they say. Seems to be more true of large groups.

I don't think that sounds jaded at all, I think that's a natural way to protect oneself. 'Actions speak louder than words' and it seems easiest to catch people lying when their actions eventually betray their words. That's interesting you note that commonly amongst large groups, I hadn't noticed that but definitely something like religious groups or governmental authorities seems to definitely display that.

How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would think we would all have to assume everyone's actions are genuine, but it's hard for me to believe that's really the case. Otherwise the implication seems like an end to all transphobia--the solution all along was to just have everyone say they're trans, because we've accepted the responsibility of unconditional, radical acceptance of all, and all expressions of transphobia would be committed by trans people themselves. That would therefore be a manifestation of internalized transphobia, requiring a compassionate approach due to lack of bigotry--everyone is trans and most people are expressing internalized transphobia, evidently all lashing out at each other because we are all trans. Instead of cancelling people and taking out anger on others, which seems even more transphobic because a trans person is getting angry at and trying to cancel another trans person for expressing internalized transphobia instead of trying to help them overcome their internalized transphobia, which seems highly insensitive and cruel.

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to hear it! Normal is so, so nice these days. I hope you get to go to the cabin after all! A weekend at the lake sounds so lovely.

Thank you, sharing that on YT is a good idea! There will also be a virtual version of the gallery on their website that I'll share too. And anyone who is bored can check out planning progress on fleurista.substack.com

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol thank you! I quite literally couldn't do this without you and everyone else here! 😊

Also, I really hope things are going well in your life!

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh how fun! There are certainly worse ways to spend one's time 😁 I love how creative you are! The bugs sound like a great idea, that's so sweet of you!

Thank you so much! There will be a virtual walkthrough available while it's open, I'll make sure you can see it!

Everything Else, 14/08/2021 by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahh the anticipation!! Hopefully 'boring' is a bit nice after so much prepping lol I am so excited for you, though!!

And thank you so much, there will be a virtual walkthrough gallery where you'll be able to see the show!

Awards Shows by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel the same about you and most of the other GC people here when I'm feeling a little hopeless, too. I'm really glad you're all open to talking and learning so much! (Also, happy belated B-Day! I think! Lol)

Awards Shows by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nasty and depressing 😔

Awards Shows by loveSloane in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

sexmeat

My new least favorite combination of words

Are you religious? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do hold a kind of faith, just not in the Catholic and Evangelical beliefs I was raised with; very much non-religious now. I lost my faith in Christianity and God gradually, I don't think I believed in any of it anymore by the time I was going into high school--it just seemed like everything I've ever done, everything I ever do, every place I've ever been, everywhere I'm going to, it's a sin.

I'd be surprised if my views on gender/sex/gender identity weren't influenced by my faith and experiences with religion and the church, though I'm not really sure exactly in what ways they have been. I think I really internalized sex stereotypes and traditional gender roles to the extent that those things informed sex rather than the other way around, but after experiencing nothing but heartache from the church, I'm so distrustful of religious institutions and put more stock in science.

I'm not really sure what the religious debate is, but much of the pro-trans and gender identity adherents seem to rely on faith or an esoteric, spiritual belief in such things, particularly when lacking scientific evidence to support such ideas. I hate the cliché, but there is something cult-like to it--but also to some gender critical spaces. Any echo chambers that discourages asking questions, challenging ideas and being open to changing minds seems decidedly cult-like, or at least like some strict religious institution.

QT/pro-trans: What are the most common misconceptions gender critical people have about things like being trans, gender identity, your goals or activism, etc? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It does seem that way. What's unfortunate is that the trans people who advocate against TRA goals and ideology seem rather disconnected--maybe there are more than there appears to be, but we don't seem very well-connected to each other or organized to the same degree as TRAs or even radfems. It really isn't good enough.

As a trans person who has been advocating for such changes, is there anything I or others like me can do to make a more significant impact and have our voices better heard?

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your experiences, that makes sense. That's so wonderful you were able to finally reach that point, that's kind of amazing GC thinking was able to help you do that. If I'm remembering correctly from conversation, you had had issues with your biological sex for nearly your whole life, right?

QT/pro-trans: What are the most common misconceptions gender critical people have about things like being trans, gender identity, your goals or activism, etc? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

YES. The irony and hypocrisy is just too much, it would be really funny if it wasn't real and people weren't being nasty to each other. I mentioned the medical aspect in a comment to Circling, but the other reason I kind of got fed up with r/truscum and r/transmedical was because they did the same thing bashing and complaining about tucutes (AKA other trans people) all day every day, but bashing and complaining about GC radfems being so needlessly hateful of trans people. That 'us vs them' mentality is so sad. I get venting, though, and how fed up a lot of people are where they just don't have the tolerance, but it really seems to lead to some toxic conversations and viewpoints when lots of furious people get together.

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ironically, I would probably just keep using passing privilege without a care if it weren't for gender critical and radical feminist beliefs leading me to believe that it's wrong to occupy female spaces like that. Maybe GC can help passing transwomen be better advocates for actual trans rights, or at least more active, as strange as that may sound!

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist? I enjoyed interacting with transmed and truscum communities until it became clear that many if not most of the people I was speaking with believed that transition is the cure to gender dysphoria and therefore no research into preventative medicine or therapies or anything that did not require lifelong medical treatment and social adjustments is necessary. That seems like a key difference between QT/trans and GC beliefs is that GC believes transition is mostly harmful and something to work towards doing away with. That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

It's rough since we're trying to just have normal lives, but we're enabling a deeply problematic system by transitioning as GC people view it and I would have to agree. There are certainly GC people who aren't very understanding and extend no sympathy for trans people or anyone experiencing gender dysphoria, and that doesn't seem very progressive whatsoever. On the other hand, I can see where we are so wrapped up in our own troubles that we develop tunnel vision and can't see a larger problem.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But radical feminism and gender critical thought have led to me making peace with my biological sex. I'm not confused about it anymore. I rarely feel the kind of distress I used about being female, especially after ridding myself of the liberal feminist influence on Reddit. I'll probably always struggle to some extent, but I'm much better now.

I find this so interesting. If you don't mind my asking, what did both schools of thought help with specifically? Do you find that one helped change your beliefs and find peace with your biological sex more than the other?

QT/pro-trans: What are the most common misconceptions gender critical people have about things like being trans, gender identity, your goals or activism, etc? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

we'd be more understanding if any trans person advocated their own spaces. This is not even in the picture anywhere because it'd be "invalidating".

I'm really sorry change isn't happening fast enough. It would certainly be more reassuring as a sign of progress if it were more obvious or noticeable, but I can see how it might not be evident even if it's really happening. Hopefully things can change on a bit more of a grander scale over time.

QT/pro-trans: What are the most common misconceptions gender critical people have about things like being trans, gender identity, your goals or activism, etc? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's so annoying and frustrating, trans people do the same exact thing to GC radical feminists, too. In both cases it just comes across as immature and a bit petty, honestly. Ovarit seems to be changing a little bit in that it doesn't seem quite as full of that stuff as it was even at the beginning of the year--I see a lot more new usernames and a lot less old ones. Or it might just be my imagination!

What is gender nonconformity to you? by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is it?

My broadest interpretation is that gender nonconformity as a whole is anything that subverts widely held expectations, unconscious or not, that are based on beliefs about biological sex that have nothing to do with physiological differences between women and men. I see gender conformity as an adherence to such expectations, however that may manifest.

What does it look like?

Gender nonconformity can look like a lot of different things, whether through fashion, beauty, language, mannerisms, hobbies. When speaking of someone being GNC, it seems like it's a broad combination of characteristics for many GNC people. The subversion appears to often come across as something unusual or irregular via feelings of surprise, shock, confusion, disgust, curiosity and other feelings that at least momentarily stop the self-talk that would otherwise go unnoticed. Gender conformity is something that most people don't seem to notice or consciously pay attention to; it appears so mundane that instead we focus on the details about something or someone without (usually) consciously thinking about or attributing it to biological sex or sex role stereotypes.

What does it feel like to you?

It feels like nothing--it feels natural. But I used to feel bad about it because it was the reason I was harassed and bullied so much before transitioning. Just the thought of having to be seen by most in society as an exceptionally feminine man again makes me feel anxious and nervous. So, it feels normal, but as a by-product of not meeting society's expectations about males that leads to negative consequences and outcomes, it makes me feel bad about myself.

For me personally, it is a bit complex since I don't believe I'm really viewed as gender nonconforming so much anymore since most people who don't know my history seem to believe I'm female. So I suppose my female-attributed characteristics, traits or mannerisms don't draw attention to myself. One of the biggest reasons I transitioned was so I could fit in better, so what would be considered GNC expression otherwise is just unremarkable.

Is it a deliberate act of adopting gender norms of the other sex or is it normal human preferences being expressed without the tightlacing gender puts out

An expression of gender nonconformity could be deliberate, but I think at its heart it really is about natural human preferences.

Is aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex actually nonconforming?

I suppose it might depend on who you ask and what the intent is in doing such things. Adopting norms of the opposite sex would be nonconforming from the perspective of the 'original' sex, but then it would be gender conforming from the perspective of the opposite sex, maybe. I guess when you say 'aggressively adopting' my first feelings are that it isn't naturally gender nonconforming in the slightest.

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think because AGP isn't better recognized and acknowledged, honestly. If it were, I would think more adults and professionals who aren't trans would step in and make sure those sorts of problems weren't so commonplace. And I don't think it's inherently AGP that's the cause of problems so much as the assumption that there is no problem, letting bad behavior continue on, and reinforcing that behavior as acceptable to those who act out their fetish, paraphilias and misogyny on others.

Also, I sort of see a prevailing attitude that older trans people helping younger trans people is on par with professional care, so trans children and young trans people are sort of turned over to the generally older trans people who are expected to run these sorts of organizations and spaces and help these younger trans people. It seems like a great solution, like a mentorship, but those are positions of power that aren't really being regarded as such. So, to paint a picture, you have some adults with some severe mental health and personality issues, including paraphilias, being given positions of leadership and trust over more vulnerable trans people.

GC: Why doesn't passing count? by BasCaptain in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm an American, but I can pass for a Canadian. However, I don't think anyone thinks of me or treats me as a Canadian when they know I am American. I'm able to maybe better avoid tourist traps or more easily converse with actual Canadians, but that's probably the extent of 'counting'. The Canadian government doesn't seem impressed at my abilities enough yet to let me live there or use their public benefits, assumedly since I'm still an American in their eyes.

What do you think about cases of young boys raised as girls, but eventually realizing they are boys? by FlanJam in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think cases of boys raised as girls coming to realize they're boys proves gender identity, or it doesn't prove it as some independent feature of human beings. I didn't start identifying with boys once I realized I was one too, I still saw myself as a girl, so all that I feel like can really be drawn from these sorts of scenarios is that it is possible for a child to not recognize their own sex in the face of evidence. There are a lot of children with intersex conditions who grow up without gender dysphoria, too, like in this study showing only 5% of people with a variety of intersex conditions changing their gender total, only 1% of those being after puberty.

All: What do you think about "non-binaries" and other "gender identities"? by BiologyIsReal in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I kind of think of 'non-binary' being akin to 'androgynous', but I realize it might not be the same for those who identify as such. I see them as people just freeing themselves from gender role expectations and restrictions, which is admirable and really cool, but it sounds like pathologizing the desire to escape those expectations and restrictions. Like, it seems like the whole point of being non-binary would be to leave behind gender rather than form that escape from gender into a gender itself (which is kind of funny!)

All: How have your beliefs evolved? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've often been in abusive relationships and scenarios I didn't realize were such at the time, only discovering just how bad those people and situations were after getting away--that's my experience with and how I feel about the trans community and trans-affirmative spaces. My feelings are strongly tied with my own experiences with these people, and since they were exploitative and inappropriate with me, I'm wary of pro-trans organizations, groups and people. Looking back, 'trans' for them was almost just a pretext to perv on people. For the longest time, I thought I was just being judgmental and cruel for being scared of transwomen, but I've come to see I'm not the only one with these kinds of experiences and that it's not just in my head.

I feel really used and taken advantage of by many of the adults in my life and by people claiming to care and that they can be trusted, so I've really grown to distrust any of the pro-trans banter or people. I feel bad still for unassuming children and adults caught up in everything, I worry about them being exploited, having their lives permanently altered, and being used by sick people for their own pleasure.

QT/pro-trans: What are the most common misconceptions gender critical people have about things like being trans, gender identity, your goals or activism, etc? by [deleted] in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Understandably, gender critical people often seem to believe that trans people share a lot of universal beliefs and attitudes about things, and many do, but that is the most common misconception that I see: assuming we all feel the same way about everything, or that we all have had the same experiences or upbringing. I think this is more common in people who haven't interacted with many different trans people.

There are other misconceptions about whether transwomen experience discrimination or misogyny in the same way that biological women do, like believing that does not happen. I can't really speak for misconceptions about transmen or nonbinary or androgynous people, other than all trans people often seem to get reduced to being fetishists, gay or both by GC people (among others). If there's truth in a belief, though, I'm not sure if it's a misconception.

Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

unlike other issues like prissons or children's "transitions", this issue is not as easy to hide because many people follow sports

That's.... depressingly probably true. Hopefully there could be some major revelations by people about what that might say about our priorities as social creatures.

many of these athletes seem to love all the attention and are happy to appear in the Media

If there really is some truth to the notion of an overabundance of narcissistic and sociopathic traits amongst transwomen as a whole, it will be very interesting seeing that combined with that celebrity attention en masse.

Also as the Olympics are viewed by people of all countries, it would have been (or will be) a big wake-up call for people from countries where either there aren't TRAs or they have no gained much political power yet.

That's a big cause for hope, I just saw they're commencing in about a week! I don't usually watch them, but I might have to a bit this time through that lens, it will be really interesting to see how that unfolds.

Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahh that's a great point! I hadn't considered that at all. I kind of thought (well, hoped) that everyone would learn so much more during this time on account of circumstances fostering introspection and increased time online, but something like seeing the trans-inclusive Olympic/sports policies in action really would (or will) educate people in a way that makes it hard to dismiss the unevenness of women and transwomen physically competing against each other.

That's so interesting, thank you for sharing that!

Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Time doesn't seem to be on the side of QT or gender ideology (at least these craze-like levels of it). It seems like people whose GD desisted and/or who detransitioned are going to maybe play a really big role shifting the conversation and peaking people, or at least really getting people to reevaluate their beliefs. People seem to really be getting more and more upset about what's happening to girls and women and LGB people for the sole benefit of transgenderism and trans people. I'm sort of anticipating a SuperStraights 2: Genetic Boogaloo, but you and others here who have been following things for a while seem to have your expectations tempered more than I would have thought--it's probably wiser to follow your lead.

Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more? by Fleurista in GCdebatesQT

[–]Fleurista[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is why sometimes I really envy psychopathic lack of care about what others think of them. It's quite a test of conviction, there's like nothing really to reinforce or encourage breaking that kind of nicety. You have to really, really believe in what you're doing since it can seem rude or hateful (or even violent to some).