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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

I think StillLessons is largely correct. There are two types of people here. One is the type that is doing this for financial gain, but this type is rarer than the other type, and wants to create this second type for their own personal gain.

StillLessons called the second type 'activists', but I would use the term 'true believers', as it isn't necessarily political. Christians are a type of true believer - they want to save you from your wrong views and convert you to their correct ones. I'd also say that secular ideologies work much the same way, at least in social dynamics, you can have a true believer in liberalism, conservatism, gender ideology, capitalism, or pretty much any idea or group of ideas. They aren't really 'shills' because they truly believe what they say, and aren't in it for financial gain, but their words might be hard to distinguish from the first group

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

This reminds me of how people talk about "-isms" (commun-ism femin-ism).

It's fun to do this and try to convert people, it feels good and like you're doing something important. At least it has for me. (uh, sorry guys.)

How do you just be a regular person without all this? It's almost like that's the exception, by far. It's like everyone is constantly trying to convert you to something. And I'm doing it too.

I guess there's a difference in honestly though. Someone can be participating in something without pushing it on others, to varying degrees of insistence and varying degrees of ignoring the targeted people and reality.

[–]Dragonerne 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Look how the jewish shill managed to derail your subject into a criticism of christianity and christians.

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Is honkongphooey jewish?

I don't like the casual undermining of Christianity that I've seen in general in some places. Even if there are things that can be criticized it's not really a nice thing to try to undermine someone's cultural spiritual practices. There are at least a lot of positive things about Christianity, including missionary work, goodness knows there are times I wished a missionary would come find and help me when I've been involved in questionable things and needing help. That said, it's also important that it's ok to criticize in an open forum too.

maybe there's a better term for this sort of phenomenon in the domain of politics, consumer products, etc, than "true believer," which has religious connotations.

Maybe for politics "useful idiot", that also implies the "shill" doesn't know the real agenda. With drugs you can have a "pusher" though that implies nefarious motives. I guess "shill" is the one that came from commercial products. Marketing, recruiting, seduction. Idk.

I guess I don't know what to conclude re hongkongphooey based on this post alone. If he is doing that, well, that's not very nice and I hope he can find some ways to be nicer to others. And if he's not well that's great.

I have seen guides for shills or disinformation agents or whathaveyou in general, but I haven't seen a guide for spotting specifically jewish style disinformation. I don't know if such a thing would be useful or not.

[–]Dragonerne 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

One of the methods jews do is to project what they do unto their victim. So when he shills against christianity in this case, he frames it as if christians are 'shills'.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So when he shills against christianity in this case, he frames it as if christians are 'shills'.

Bro, your reading comprehension is really lacking. I said:

They aren't really 'shills' because they truly believe what they say, and aren't in it for financial gain

In reference to the true believers who I used christians as an example of. Someone who promotes their cause because they believe in it, not because they are being paid. While also saying some people truly believe in other secular ideologies, like liberalism, or conservatism, and promote it not because they are 'shills' but because they believe in it. They also want to 'convert' people to their system of morality. Its called an analogy. Interesting that you would interpret 'true believer' as a negative thing, I thought that was specifically what made one a good christian.

My entire point was merely that 'shills' are usually not shills at all, just people who truly believe in an ideology, but clearly you are either insane or not terribly bright

[–]Dragonerne 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You took a jab at christians, got called out, and now you're trying to pilpul yourself out of the situation, while attacking my personal characteristics. We both know that I am more intelligent and educated than you. And it's obvious to anyone reading, what you're trying to do.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don't like the casual undermining of Christianity that I've seen in general in some places

What about 'true believer' do you interpret as being negative? Do christians not truly believe? Do christians not want to convert people to their religion? I am simply talking about facts. I though christians thought these were positive things

Also, neither of you is reading very carefully. I specifically wrote

They aren't really 'shills' because they truly believe what they say, and aren't in it for financial gain.

I was saying that not everyone who appears to be a shill is a shill at all, that some of them really believe what appears to be shilling for a cause. I'm not sure what you interpret as being negative about christianity here. I am simply stating that like religion, people can strongly believe in other things, and promote an agenda not because they are being paid, but because they 'truly believe' in their cause, with christians being an example of a true believer who arent promoting their views for personal gain

Is honkongphooey jewish?

No, I am not Jewish, fuck you people are stupid, this is the last time I respond to one of your questions

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If you're not doing anything against anyone here then that's fine, people will figure it out, it's ok. I'm not trying to claim you are I just don't want to be taken for a ride either, y'know? Everyone here can surely relate to that for goodness sakes

What you said about "true believers" not needing to be compensated because they just believe in the cause makes sense. I've done it. It's a good way to put it. People have used that term in the context of cults too.

I know I put "religion" in OP as a category so maybe it was natural to mention Christians. Islam or another religion could have been the example. If it was just an honest comment then this is what I mean about the casual anti-christian thing. People don't tend to talk this way about Islam or Orthodox Judaism or whatever other kinds of things, it's usually Christians people talk about this way. I don't really like this. Certainly Christianity should be open to criticism like anything, but for people in a culture where it's something that's from their culture to morally guide them, it's not healthy to try to turn them away especially from the good parts.

"True believer" in this context I guess did sound a little negative, "one who's finally seen the light" or "enlightened" or "savvy enough to not have gotten vaxxed" would eg sound a bit more positive.

If you didn't mean anything by it don't worry, you're entitled to your opinion, you don't need to sugar coat it or state it differently than you think it, it's fine. I've enjoyed a lot of your posts. If you're not being nice and do have an agenda well that's ok too you can maybe work on being nicer to others as you're able to.

Idk what to think man. People have to draw their own conclusions right? It's confusing enough out there? You can talk to who you want on here I wouldn't want you to do something you don't want to do. I have enjoyed talking to you on here either way, you've shared helpful and interesting stuff.

I have to be free to make up my own mind about things as best I can, same as anyone, same as you? If you're just honestly sharing your opinion about things you're definitely not doing anything wrong. It's not strange that people would occasionally be concerned about alterior motives of one another on a site like this, that's not doing anything wrong either.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

"True believer" in this context I guess did sound a little negative, "one who's finally seen the light" or "enlightened" or "savvy enough to not have gotten vaxxed" would eg sound a bit more positive.

My honest intent was for it to be purely neutral and mean literally 'someone who truly believes'. I didn't use those other words because I didn't want to be seen as taking a side or stance on anyones particular system of beliefs because it didn't seem relevant to the discussion and I wanted to avoid sidetracking it with ideological debate.

I apologize for getting a little upset but its kind of irritating to post comments and read weird accusations about being a Jew

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It's nice of you to clarify and I'm sorry if I misread it. And I'm sorry to do anything to promote anger, I would hope that's not my intent for anyone on here regardless of what they're doing, and if it is, it's probably just me having a bad day or something. I like stuff different people say on here and not everyone is nice to each other so I guess that puts me in a weird spot sometimes.

[–]Pantypicker 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Just fyi, /u/hongkongphooey is anything but neutral when it comes to believing in a god.

She has ground my stones into a powder while declaring her endless love and devotion to Lucifer Satan, so maybe take that into consideration when discussing religion with her.

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

thank you for taking the time to add some context.

however considering that this is a new account and that your post history includes a significant number of non-serious posts, maybe some receipts are in order? It's hard for me to tell whether you're being serious here or not.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't worry about it dude, most of it was irritation with Dragonerne when I was responding to you. I overreacted, you seem like a pretty reasonable person from our interactions, I apologize as well

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't like seeing honest people fight on here, we have enough to deal with as it is. Heck I don't even like seeing dishonest people fight when it's not necessary. There are sometimes effective ways of handling problems that have less negative side effects.

Maybe it's not surprising things could get a little heated in a post about shilling etc. It's an important topic and important to be able to talk about. But maybe this is why I see people just post the guides and let people read them for themselves.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, like you say I think there are some subtle differences here. All of us come to Saidit to say our piece, think we are right, and try to get others to see our reasoning. It does feel good when you change someones mind through discussion and reason, and conversely to gain insights from others. I think there is a difference between having a rational debate and trying to convince someone of a thing, and demanding that you are right and everyone submit to your rightness, I try to to aim for the former, though none of us are perfect, and I'm sure you could find instances of me being dogmatic to some extent if you were to review all my posts

[–]Alienhunter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Personally I think that the various "isms" essentially boils down to various form of religious thinking. Works in most any metric, someone who is a zealot. The true communist believes that communist ideology is the best path for society and the way to utopia. The feminist holds similar ideals although often they are very sexist in practice, though some hate of an outgroup is common with this sort of thing. Religion politics fandoms consumer groups are all driven by the masses of "true believers" in whatever it is and they are pursuing some kind of ideological purity whatever that may be and not necessarily doing it for their own personal gain. Naturally though as it happens with any religious or political movement there are those who realize the social dynamic and realize they can essentially use the group to further their own agenda, be that in service of a different ideological force or simply that of self betterment which is in and of itself its own ideology.

In the end it all boils down to power and how to get it. Most everyone is seeking power in their own lives in some form. Some more than others. Many people are simply blind to this fact and through various kinds of mental gymnastics have convinced themselves they are acting for the greater good.

If we see the corruption , shills, gifting, profiteering and all the rest. We aren't really "normal people" we are the same as the shills, grifting , and profiteers, in that we see how the game works. Whether or not we use that ability for self betterment at the detriment of others or to further agendas of bettering ourselves along with everyone else (but perhaps bettering some more than others) we are still seeking power.

If you see someone selling something and your first thought is "what's his angle" you aren't gullible, so you aren't a "regular person". Most people don't really understand when they are being manipulated. Or even when they do understand that they are, some are contrarians who won't allow themselves to do something someone is manipulating them into, and will act in the opposite way regardless of whether or not it's in their best interests. Classic reverse psychology, which ironically is itself a good manipulation tactic.

So how do you just be a regular person? Why the fuck would you want to be one of those. Use your ability to see past the initial offer and analyze people's motives to benefit yourself, and to benefit the people you care about. You aren't normal and you don't want to be anyway.

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That makes sense, yeah. And about ideological purity... I've definitely experienced that.

By "regular person" I think I was trying to get at like... whatever it is to not be a shill. "Honest" maybe? It's good to be aware of people doing questionable things. Maybe like crime. You can be aware of the schemes without having to use them yourself. And it's better to be aware. But it's not good to do them.

I feel like I've been sortof a shill in the past for some things, I wanted to convince people of things. And maybe now it sorta seems not nice of me to do things that way. Like there's a better way maybe to just share information without feeling like I have to "win someone over to my side" in that way.

Thanks for the reply.

[–]Alienhunter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For this sort of forum there's no real need to attempt to "win someone over" beyond just giving your arguments. Debates are a better ground for explaining your side and why you believe it and why you believe the other side is wrong, or if not wrong, why you have come to a different conclusion to what they have not.

There are many positions that aren't reconcilable via debate and there isn't much point in attempting to change someone's mind. Your best option is simply to learn why they think the way they do and try to understand their logic even if you fundamentally disagree with it. Of course this also requires you to reevaluate your own positions as well and really know why you believe what you do.

Most people don't think that deeply and prefer the ideological purity route. It's far easier to simply dismiss others as evil rather than try to understand their motives. Their motives may indeed be evil in the end but rarely do people actively pursue agendas they themselves believe are evil. Everyone is the hero in their own story yadda yadda.

That's why logic and rational arguments are important tools for debate rather than emotion and assumption. These tools allow for communication with people from vastly different backgrounds where otherwise you might end up getting tangled up in preconceived ideas of "what the other person actually means" rather than what they think they mean. Just ask people to clarify their positions, if you think they are arguing in bad faith give them a chance to clarify as a way to save face. Even if bad faith is suspected never assume it outright, once someone who is arguing in bad faith is asked to clarify or define their argument in more detail they'll usually not give an answer or result to insults at which point it's safe to assume you've won the argument in the eyes of anyone watching worth giving a damn about, then you can simply bow out before they try to drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I will absolutely admit to arguing in bad faith with people. Some people are stupid. I enjoy watching them get frustrated when I counter their stupid arguments with arguments twice as stupid. Did aliens build the pyramids, maybe, but ask yourself this, why didn't they just build the pyramids underground?

[–]panel30[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if you think they are arguing in bad faith give them a chance to clarify as a way to save face. Even if bad faith is suspected never assume it outright, once someone who is arguing in bad faith is asked to clarify or define their argument in more detail they'll usually not give an answer

this sounds like a helpful approach.