The problems with both sides of the abortion debate

submitted by [deleted] from (self.whatever)

I know you're all probably tired of constantly hearing about abortion, feel free to move along if you're just going to be hostile with me. But I had to get this off my chest. I'm so sick of people on both "sides" of the abortion debate being completely incapable of nuance and empathy.

The pro-choicers irritate me the most. Instead of thinking deeply about whether it is acceptable to end a human life in the womb, they deny that it is a human or that it's alive in the first place. Either they're trying to resolve intense cognitive dissonance, or they have no common sense. If it's not alive, what happens to it during an abortion? And if it's not human, what species does it belong to?

They use all kinds of non-sequiturs when supporting this argument. "This is what a fetus looks like at 6 weeks! How could you say that's human?" Well that's precisely what a human fetus at 6 weeks looks like. One I saw on Facebook today that really got me: "A fetus is LITERALLY a parasite." Never mind the fact that a parasite is necessarily an organism from a different species that survives solely through its host for its ENTIRE life - how dark has humanity gotten that we would see our own offspring as parasites?

I could probably write pages and pages of ridiculous pro-choice arguments that don't hold water, but then I might be giving the pro-life crowd too much credit. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard one of them say "women just need to cLoSe ThEiR lEgS!" First of all - yuck, what a crass thing to say. Secondly, it takes two to make a baby! Period! Full stop! Regardless of your opinion on the unfairness of our society, child support, or anything of that nature, it takes a male and a female to a make a baby. Even if you loathe women with your entire soul, understand that it's low IQ to blame them entirely for reproduction. Whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, men hold just as much responsibility to help avoid unplanned pregnancies as women do.

The other mistake pro-lifers make is using religious arguments. It is completely unnecessary to bring religion into this conversation, even if it does inform your opinion. You don't need religion to explain to someone why they shouldn't kill their 3 year old child, so you don't need it for abortion, either. Plus, when you bring religion into it, you're guaranteeing that nobody on the pro-choice side is going to be convinced, and in fact they'll be pushed further into their side because you've confirmed their idea that the only opposition to abortion is religious.

Which brings me to my last point, my own opinion: Abortion is not a good thing. It literally is the ending of a human life, which, if left to continue growing, would either die by natural or accidental cause (which could happen at any age, in or out of the womb), or eventually become one of us. Ending that life has the same impact as ending the life of someone of any other age - the difference is that we aren't consciously aware of that impact.

Abortion disrupts the natural order of things. No one knows what the world would have been like without all of these missing people. You might assume that it would be worse because "overpopulation," but we don't know what it would have been like. Every person has an impact. Having abortion as a back-up option has led people to seriously disrespect the human cycle of reproduction and become totally careless about who they have sex with. It's increased sexual degeneracy. It's decreased respect for life in general. The issue of abortion and all of its impacts plays a much bigger role in the problems of today's society than most people are aware of.

All of that said, I don't think that the answer is criminal charges. I think we need to understand that, although a fetus is living human being, that doesn't mean that an abortion should be treated the same way legally as killing a born person. Because right now, people are lost. They do not understand this reality. We need a consciousness shift before we can truly hold everyone accountable. For decades, American society (as well as many other countries) has embraced abortion. To suddenly send people to prison over it feels extreme and like it would just increase violence, division, and chaos. If the goal is to respect life, we need to take gradual steps, changing hearts and minds.

The most important part of this would be to shift ALL pro-life energy towards preventing unplanned pregnancies instead of preventing abortions. This is a win-win-win. The problem is that it would require people to start having respect for sex and their own bodies. No more rape. No more random one night stands. Encouraging abstinence - not out of Puritanical shame, but out of respect for ourselves and a deep understanding of the consequences of sex. People think this is impossible. But human beings in many societies have overcome primitive, savage behaviors, and I think we could do this too.

I know it's a tall order, but it would be the solution to this whole mess. This is an issue I've been thinking about from many perspectives for years, and I'm only scratching the surface here. But I would love to discuss any of these points further if you're interested.

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[–]StillLessons 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well done post. Good for you for diving into this issue and carving out a non-partisan position.

Regarding what you said with religion, the challenge is what I call "the religious impulse". The confusion between this impulse - hardwired into all human action - and the organized religions which have been spawned from it, is where the problem has existed for the entirety of humanity. To treat abortion as anything other than a spiritual battle is to miss the mark of what this debate is about.

It's not about 6 weeks, or 12 weeks, or full-term. Just as you say very well in your post, the question is whether it is morally permissible to end a life because it has not yet been separated from the life of the mother who carries it. That is a moral question, and morality (as we are all very aware) is NOT a political trait. Morality exists in the religious impulse.

The trouble comes because when people express this impulse, 95% express it in terms of a specific organized religion. Given that no organized religion captures all hearts, and all organized religions contain significant moral corruption within their structures (no exceptions), all of these vehicles lose their legitimacy to address the actual moral question being discussed.

I look at abortion practically. When I was younger I was pro-choice along the lines of "Safe, Legal, and Rare". Looking at what has happened over the past 40 years, I have reversed position. There is an assumption that people cannot change position; perhaps I am the exception that proves the rule, but I know several other people who are moving the same direction I am. From a practical point of view, the abortion universe in the west has proven that - when put in the moral quagmire of easy access to abortion - too many young people do not accept the moral ramifications of their acts. We have moved from a debate about tolerating abortion to a debate about celebrating abortion. Watching people proudly declare their abortions and pretend that the very fact they had an abortion makes them morally superior is sickening. It's just disgusting. If that's the result of easy access to abortion, I'm out. Abortion should NEVER be celebrated. It is the killing of an innocent life. There are situations in which I was able to see it being tolerated, but that's not what has happened. From the point of view of the "practice" of abortion (back to looking at this practically), IT HAS NOT WORKED. It has instead destroyed the moral compass of multiple generations. This must stop.

Thanks again for a well thought out post.

[–]package 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The most important part of this would be to shift ALL pro-life energy towards preventing unplanned pregnancies instead of preventing abortions.

We already tried this for decades, and the issue is attitude not education. A certain demographic didn't seem to give a shit, and a certain ideology pushed absolute sex positivity and the idea that telling people to practice some degree of self-control/personal-responsibility was some sort of misogynistic slut shaming dog whistle.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

You're absolutely right. And that's why I feel really tied up trying to think through all of this, because no matter what, some people will be irresponsible and careless. Even the law can't control that. You can't make people respect themselves or others, which is why things like murder, rape, theft, drug addiction, etc will always be around.

I can only hope to change one person's mind at a time. The problem is systemic. We never should have lived in these huge nation states with large central governments in the first place. The loss of community and strong families is what got us here to begin with.

I'm kind of just rambling at this point. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know there is no simple solution or fix. But if the focus was on the prevention of unplanned pregnancies instead of abortion, maybe that would be more amenable to both sides.

[–]raven9 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The loss of community and strong families is what got us here to begin with.

Yes and it happened quite suddenly. When I went to school in the late 1970s and 1980s everyone came from families with two married parents. I remember only one girl at school who came from what they called back then, 'a broken home'. Her mother later remarried so she had a baby brother with a different last name. At the time that was just weird. But then by the mid 1990s the elementary schools were full of kids from single parent families.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Give reproductive power to the state (of course, you would first need a legitimate state). Sterilize low-IQ parents after 1 or 2 children. Mandate abortions in the case of major defects.

Edit: also ban condoms. They only ensure that the people who are too stupid to use condoms are the ones that reproduce.

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I personally would rather have been aborted, at least if it weren't painful. But there is no guarantee that someone will share my feelings, no matter how impaired: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic

[–]jet199Instigatrix 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It's not just attitude.

There is a human instict to reproduce and it's very strong.

Your brain knows when you're trying to get round it and so will put you in a mindset and/or situation to undermine your plans.

Just look at how many men have an aversion to condoms. That's not rational, that's the part of their brain which wants to get people pregnant making them feel certain way so it happens against their rational judgement. Saidit favorite Assange was even removing condoms mid sex in a country where that is legally rape. That's not coming from his rational mind.

Of course people who are generally more out of control and impulsive will be more effected but it can happen to anyone.

Our insticts have more control over us than we like to think and our brain is conning us into doing things we know aren't good for us everyday. No one is 100% above that all the time.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My instincts failed terribly

[–]raven9 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The problem with social media is every baby mama with an ape level IQ has facebook and twitter accounts so you see the opinions of such people displayed in the same context as the intelligent section of the population. This has never happened before. In the past no one would listen to the opinions of the village idiot because everyone can see they are the village idiot. Today, as a group on the internet, they are pushing the narratives. I think this is a huge problem.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

That's very true. And because such people are more likely to indiscriminately post every thought that enters their mind, they end up having the loudest voices and it appears that they are the majority.

[–]raven9 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes exactly.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know. An intelligent consumer of social media can easily discern the worthlessness of the opinions of frequent and unrestrained posters.

But, anyway, I agree with everything in your OP.

[–]agent_pecan 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Most consumers are not inteligente

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Great point.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

The most important part of this would be to shift ALL pro-life energy towards preventing unplanned pregnancies instead of preventing abortions. This is a win-win-win.

I agree with you until here. In the words of Bob Ross, "We don't make mistakes, just happy little accidents."

Although I believe in voluntary eugenics, such as selecting genetically compatible partners for offspring, I think we'd inadvertantly harm the process if we muck about with the timing and overly worry about social convention. Women make their healthiest babies young, unplanned pregnancies lend themselves to that.

No more random one night stands.

That sounds super unfun. What would people do at conventions?

Encouraging abstinence

Okay, now I need to go get the pitchfork. Lol

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I could have worded that better. Perhaps instead of encouraging abstinence, which is too loaded, we could just focus on teaching people about how their bodies work (especially the female reproductive cycle) and what the consequences of sex are. There's more to it than just "sex makes babies," and we could empower everyone by shifting towards awareness of that. I think more respect for our bodies would naturally result in less random sex, especially if abortion was no longer an easy backup option.

I don't want to come across as though I'm saying sex is bad. But there is a cost to promiscuity, and I think most people just aren't consciously aware of it. It's something I have trouble verbalizing, but I can feel it. I hope that makes sense? And, thank you for the response :-)

[–]Masterblaster 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very well said. Thank you for posting this.

[–]monkeymagic 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the actual issue is quite secondary to how useful the issue is in the hands of destructive manipulators. until society at large properly identifies the one party system as such and makes meaningful attempts to correct it, you’re gonna be dealing with hot button “issues” like this on the regular. they know how much you love to debate lol

[–]SaidOverRed 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"You don't need religion to explain to someone why they shouldn't kill their 3 year old child, so you don't need it for abortion, either." That's where you're wrong.

Also you used the word puritanical unironically. That's almost a godwin level fail right there.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, enlighten me then. You're just telling me I'm wrong without explaining why or how.

I think I understand your first point - but you definitely don't need religion to know that murder is wrong.

[–]yabbit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

half of all men are incel anyway so who cares

[–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know a guy who has been planning on the Roe v. Wade reversal for decades. He is now in the process of starting up The Abortion Boat. It goes out into international waters and then the abortions begin.

[–]HanssenBob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The argument for nuance is a veiled argument for abortion.

Don't kill other living beings/humans. Pretty straightforward stuff.

It's murder. I want to see these "mothers" prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and receive lengthy custodial sentences.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can see how that is sometimes true, but in my case I'm coming from a fully pro life perspective. The nuance isn't about whether it's ok to kill the unborn sometimes, the nuance is about different ways of handling the issue from a strategic standpoint.

Throwing a bunch of people in prison isn't the answer. That would contribute to the further degradation of society, on the taxpayers dime no less. These women have been brainwashed by the state - they're not all "shout your abortion!" A lot of them are desperate and confused. Many already have children, and locking them up would just cause more harm.

I'm guessing you will say something along the lines of, "I don't care, they're murderers, lock them up," which is fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But the fact is that it would help no one, and hurt more people.

[–]HanssenBob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Strong general deterrence is required in this case. These people have a grotesque sense of entitlement.