Why don't you all put your $$$ where your mouth is?

submitted by Lilith_Fair from self.whatever

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[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (19 children)

I can certainly tell you why. The main point of this website, the pyramid of debate, doesn't appear to be enforced. So I have no faith this will be anything but Voat 2.0, flooded by far-right extremist propaganda and all. The lack of downvotes only does so much when a select 10 or 20 people spend all their waking hours keyboard warring telling people to "leave" when they're met with disagreement or skepticism.

I would support a platform that enforces that pyramid of debate. So far, this one appears to have forgotten it exists.

[–]suckitreddit 16 insightful - 7 fun16 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 7 fun -  (6 children)

I can certainly tell you why. The main point of this website, the pyramid of debate, doesn't appear to be enforced. So I have no faith this will be anything but Voat 2.0, flooded by far-right extremist propaganda and all. The lack of downvotes only does so much when a select 10 or 20 people spend all their waking hours keyboard warring telling people to "leave" when they're met with disagreement or skepticism.

I would support a platform that enforces that pyramid of debate. So far, this one appears to have forgotten it exists.

If you're so worried, then fucking contribute. Sick of people complaining about saidit's content, and doing fuck. Make some submissions. Counter people's arguments. "Upvote" what you think is good. Stop expecting others to do the job for you.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I do contribute. I submit to science when I read something worth submitting, and I have attempted (with mostly failure) to engage people in argument. Hence why I pointed out the pyramid of debate is not being enforced, as most attempts simply result in people not actually defending their ideas.

Example, here, instead of proposing a counter-argument you've appealed to my supposed hypocrisy. You might've countered it by arguing that it isn't true, or perhaps even that in supporting it I might have better odds of getting my way. However, in lieu of that, by not doing so, you've committed a fallacy while trying to insult me. Why would I support a website whose users won't even put up the most minimal effort to be reasonable?

[–]Wahwah 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I suppose when you are supporting a platform like Saidit, you are supporting the premise and infrastructure of the website, in case of Saidit it is free speech and so far Saidit has delivered well of this premise. Now, the userbase is not the responsibility of a truly free speech website, you cannot and should not be able to control or influence the nature of its audience, even if undesirable and dominant. As long as the website is giving you the opportunity to present your views freely and those who are in terms with you, it should be fine. I feel that's healthy for a free speech square with minimal governance. However, when you talk about enforcement its kind of a slippery slope because it could potentially infringe upon free speech. You can simply ignore those who do not contribute to your debates, if they are abusive, you can exercise blocking them.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's the way I look at it. Supporting this site doesn't mean supporting the individual views within it. I support the Constitution but it doesn't mean I support all the ways people act and behave under it.

A lot of things said on here are repulsive but is the alternative better? At the rate things are going, alternative frightens and repulses me way more and I guess that's the reason why I'm still here.

I won't support policing of speech on this site or any other site actually trying to maintain the principle of free speech. But I don't think this site will last. Fundamentally people everywhere care more about their pet issues than upholding free speech (and that includes those flooding the front page as well as those disgusted by it, and all the sheeples happily posting in non-political subreddits because "it doesn't affect them".

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

When voting on content, please think of the Pyramid of Debate, as we aspire to the upper levels and get to the truth of what's being discussed, and to let everyone have their say. The following diagram is the core of how this website is administrated. People who are consistently dragging discussion down to lower levels of the pyramid are not welcome here:

https://saidit.net/static/PyramidDebate.jpg JPG

The premise is not "only" free speech. It's this. And this is why I am here. Only this. If I wanted a front page of racism and stupidity, I'd use voat. Sadly that's what "free speech" unfettered does online. Leaves only the dregs. You certainly should have a right to say what you want, you've no right to make anyone bother reading it. Most importantly, some kind of standards are required for discourse. Otherwise, why are you here? Just use Voat.

[–]Wahwah 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You certainly should have a right to say what you want, you've no right to make anyone bother reading it.

Certainly, I don't think anyone is or can make you read what you don't want to, you can simply skip or ignore, however wishing that they were not there in the first place is, in my opinion, is not a healthy demand. After all, free speech means you can say whatever you want, but if you expect they do not say that in front of you is not entirely free speech.

Just use Voat

Well, two reasons. Firstly, I have heard that on Voat mods enforce their standard of moderation which systematically restricts dissenting voice or alternative views, which is not free speech. Secondly, downvotes. Which can also suppress speech from view, the reason I find Saidit's approach unique.

[–]EVERYBODYPANIC 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've read your stuff. You are not as interesting as you think you are. Will not block or ignore. Sometimes, people get better over time.

[–]Anonimouse 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's already feeling a bit like voat. Noticed a lot more jew conspiracies today. I don't think it's the debate pyramid, but that anyone who a) came here for a specific subject (the banned reddit subject) b) also likes other subjects that aren't really busy on here c) isn't at the extreme of that specific subject

will just go back to reddit for all the other subs. The extremists stay. That leads to more of the interested moderates who can do both sites leaving, and here getting more extreme..

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, sadly so true.

ETA: That's why we can't have nice things. These days I often think maybe we deserve the awful world and leaders we got.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

So, if everyone refuses to donate because the "other" side would flood the site anyway, then this site is doomed to fail. If the 2000+ users on here would all contribute just a little each, maybe Magnora7 will be able to pay a few people to enforce the pyramid of debate??

Or everyone can just sit here and bitch, and when Magnora7 runs out of funds, or can't see why he should be the only one making the effort, this site will close down and we'll still be left with nothing but Reddit.

[–]yayblueberries 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't care if this site fails in a month or two, honestly. I didn't come here out of Reddit being a shithole, either. And if he was so hard-up for money to the point where the site is going to flunk if nobody hands him money then he should have either made this a site you need to pay to use, or reconsidered starting it at all. I don't do things I can't afford, so why should I support other people making stupid decisions?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Did you not read what I wrote? It isn't that they flood the place. It's that the rules of debate are not being enforced, therefore making the entire premise of the website pointless. There already is voat, and if I just wanted Voat I'd go to Voat. If there's no evidence the rules are currently even being attempted to be enforced, why would I throw in money in the hopes they might be? What evidence does anybody have such a thing would result? What guarantees are there? None.

And that's the problem.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

You're right there's no guarantee. However, I also think maybe Magnora7 running the site solo may be why he can't enforce it. He's one person, he can only do so much in 24 hrs a day. Maybe every mod of a sub should take it upon themselves to enforce the pyramid of debate, and all those who don't follow it would have their low value comments removed? There probably should be a serious discussion about this.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

My opinion will change when there is evidence that it's incorrect. So far, moderators of the worst offending subs certainly will not take it upon themselves, and it seems like most users don't even know what the site is supposed to be for. Let alone the introduction post and the part about the pyramid of debate. Given things are, how they are now, there's zero reason to suppose this will end up any different from Voat.

So either it starts being enforced, giving people like me a reason to take our hard earned money to this probably futile venture, or my position remains as it is. Hell, some kind of transparency showing it being enforced would go a long way to (a) inform these people they're not welcome and to clean up their act, and (b) actually show he cares about the sites supposed founding value.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's not up to me to change your opinion. I'm just another user here. Plus, my post wasn't targeted at you specifically. As far as I see it, all the extremists you can't stand ought to contribute too if they're gonna come and bitch everyday. Never mind policing or following the intended use of this site. They flood the site but they can't even contribute a dime to enable themselves to yap apparently.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not up to me to change your opinion.

You posted the topic. You proposed an idea. Therefore, yes, it is exactly on you to defend it.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Defending an idea does not equal I have to change your mind. No one ever changes their mind because someone else proffers different take.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm just telling it like it is and calling bullshit where I see it. If you're honest with yourself you'll admit no amount of defending on my part will change your opinion. Defending an idea never changes anyone's opinion.

[–]dtyrdytdytfdytfytfcy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

CHINA IS THE FUTURE.