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[–]zyxzevn🐈‍⬛ 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

With that upgrade of "have some basic respect",
many posts and replies here would need to be removed.
Note: This is not necessary for jokes or when it is really a part of the discussion.

The level of "decency" can of course be discussed.
And is different per subject.

As a moderator on reddit I had many trolls,
due to the misunderstanding of the topics.
And the discussions only started improving when I started to remove their trolling replies.
I often added a reply to the person that was going too far,
or if that did not work, I replaced his reply with the same thing without insults and such.

Often people use logical fallacies to be able to oppose things,
without actually saying anything useful.
And this is a huge problem, not just on the internet,
but in our media and in much of our science.

This also causes division.
And overcoming division is only possible
by NOT doing the things that caused the division.

[–]Dragonerne 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (14 children)

As a solution I would like to upgrade Saidit's pyramid of debate to: "have some basic respect" or "be excellent with each other".

No. Never do that. It is too vague and will be misinterpreted by moderators like the ones on r/Denmark or r/Europe.
"Basic respect" is like "Hate speech" laws. It doesn't work.

Pyramid of Debate is perfect because it is about the argument. It absolutely destroys leftists because they always derail, deflect, insult etc.

"Basic Respect" will be abused sooo much by leftists. They did it so much on r/Denmark that it even became a meme (https://i.imgur.com/ayG2gUJ.jpg). "Sænk Tonen" (= lower the tone, danish expression), the bottom text says "En lille smule betyder en hel del" (= just a little can make a huge different). In english you have the word "Thought police" (tankepoliti in danish) but we also have the word "Tonepolitiet" which is like the "Tone police".

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Imagine thinking that expecting basic courtesy is exclusive to the left.

[–]Dragonerne 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Please tone down the attitude.

You're ridiculing me. Are mods even seeing this? Why can't we have a civil discourse with basic respect between the users.
Lack of basic respect between users has really been a problem lately and mods are not doing anything about it at all. It's really ruining the mood in the subreddit and creating a lot of bad vibes and negativity.

It's always in these kinds of threads too. Are you on some discord brigading the threads and coordinating these hostilities?
Etc. Etc.

Trust me the Tone Police is real and you completely missed the point of my comment. It's not that "expecting basic courtesy is exclusive to the left" at all. In fact rather the opposite actually.

As I also wrote in my comment, leftists love to throw insults and so on. This has nothing to do with "basic courtesy". It is about power and control over what you're allowed to say.
They will abuse such rules massively because they are vague.

They will twist "basic respect" to disallow specific words, to ban users that "trigger" others by writing "mean comments" etc.

And they will ban you with a straight face quoting their "basic respect"-rule while insulting you for being a bad human being.

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Bad faith ^

[–]Dragonerne 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Please read the entire comment.

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I did. You're equivocating genuine good decorum with tone policing, and the two aren't the same. The OP is advocating for the former.

[–]Dragonerne 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

It's possible that tone policing in english is not the same as tone policing in danish.

What you wrote "Imagine thinking..." is clearly meant to ridicule me - not that I care. The tone in your comment is condescending. This is the way it was used in by leftists and you're absolutely right that it's bad faith but that's how leftists are. They don't care, they just don't want you to express your opinion if it contradicts theirs and they will happily lie or use power to silence you.

Is it "genuine good decorum" to ridicule someone? Couldn't you have phrased your comment in a more polite manner where you said the same but didn't ridicule me in the process? --- do you see how this works? They will gladly abuse vague rules by moving definitions.

OP is not advocating for any of this, but leftists will gladly misinterpret the meaning of "basic respect"

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, I could have been more polite. I was just ribbing you for your initial comment because I’m someone who is economically left and I don’t think generalizations really help anyone find truth. I do see your point on people abusing systems to their own advantage, but I don’t think that means we should abandon any effort to be courteous and open-minded.

[–]Dragonerne 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think your comment was totally fine. You wrote it in a funny way and refuted my comment, although you had misunderstood what I tried to explain.
I am also economically left.

A leftist is someone who is dishonest, lies, hides behind a fake veil of "decency", a cry bully, etc. They will abuse any vagueness in their own favor and they don't care. They will gladly doxx you if they lose an argument, they will report you to your boss, they will call institutions to get the meaning of words or definitions changed, so they win the debate next time etc.

In r/Denmark I would've been banned if I wrote your comment. It could've been as a reply to a communist denying communist genocides, famines etc. and I could've written "Imagine thinking communist genocides didn't happen" and the genocide apologist wouldn't get banned but the "indecent" comment would. As they put it:
"You can be critical but it has to be formulated in a decent manner"
Which was funnily only applied to those the moderation team disagreed with or didn't like.

[–]Wahwah 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Precisely, the moment your 'feelings' become thoroughly involved in the debate, the debate is flawed. That never suggests you abuse is permitted in debates either. If someone abuses you ad hominem, they are definitely not looking for a rational debate.

[–]zyxzevn🐈‍⬛ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I understand what you mean. That is why I used "quotes".

But how would you define it, or do you think it is impossible.

[–]Dragonerne 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I think it is impossible. When I saw the Pyramid of Debate I really thought it was ingenious, because it allows you to be able to debate as you see fit as long as you are actually doing it properly.

What I noticed on r/Denmark is that the rule "Personal Attacks" was responsible for banning sooo many leftists. Pyramid of Debate doesn't allow personal attacks too.
The other rule "Hate Speech" was responsible for banning so many right wing users that it's not even funny. The most hilarious examples were some users that the mods hated and then they would "misinterpret" sarcasm or irony, you know if the user wrote one thing but meant the opposite. So they would write like "Yeah, it's totally because they're foreigners [Disclaimer to mods: This is sarcasm]" which mods would then use as if the user actually meant it... Meanwhile you had leftist comments calling danes "pigs" or "potatoes" or "pig skinned" or the likes to which mods always answered "Yes, we treat each comment based on the context". That one is a meme too btw. "Moderation baseret på kontekstTM". (Context based Moderation). If you send a modmail to ask them if "This sentence" breaks the rule,, they will always reply that they don't moderate hypotheticals and only deal with concrete comments. 100% biased moderation.
It got worse though. Nowadays they just ban the users if they link the wrong things or say the wrong things.
Discussing race and genetics by linking studies is not allowed there. They will just ban you.

Here they can't do that because it would be the top of the pyramid even if it is so-called "Hate Speech"

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like it.

[–]zyxzevn🐈‍⬛ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here is an example of discussing controversial topics, in a good way..
Steven Crowder -
Black Lives Matter is a Domestic Terrorist Organization | Change My Mind
https://www.bitchute.com/video/yITK_Bm78mI/