I would like to introduce everyone to a new sub. It's called s/UnionofRationalPeople. Let's work together to fight the forces that are destroying our country. Let's work together to fight censorship.

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[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Rather than trying to make an up-front commitment to contribute something, I think my interest will be apparent in my participation (or not) as this project moves forward.

I am extremely disturbed by the violent totalitarian leftist stuff. There are a lot of things going on that I don't think are ok.

I think we should be working together as Americans (well, I'm American, so I'm coming from that perspective, but this kind of stuff affects the entire Western world.) So I guess we should be working together as Westerners, and perhaps on a larger scale than that as well.

As an American living in a democracy, I believe it's ultimately the responsibility of the people to maintain the country properly.

I have some of ideas, but presumably others do too? It doesn't feel difficult to come up with ideas. It also feels like a big question. Maybe I will have to think about it some.

The elites have the media, Hollywood, the school system, corrupt politicians, major corporations, the biggest tech companies, and even violent groups like Antifa and BLM all working to divide us. We desperately need to coalesce into some kind of functional group to counter this. Hopefully this can be a nucleation site for a counter offensive.

I would push back against the use of "elites". There's nothing wrong with excellence; what's wrong is the violence, abuse of the system, totalitarianism, etc. In my mind. It feels to me like the threat is violent, totalitarian bolshevism/communism, not "elites". I think this "anti-elite" (including anti-rich) sentiment is another form of divide-and-conquer, and it's one that SaidIt has a problem with. I think it is part of the bolshevist subversion.

[–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

working together as Americans

This is exactly what the goal should be. We are being divided on racial lines and while there are legitimate grievances the majority of what people believe is bullshit. While international issues are related I think we should focus on local issues and the American Media's role in the race war. I believe the solution to racism is Nationalism and the ultimate goal should be to bring people together as Americans.

Democracys are controlled by the media. There is major voting fraud that doesn't really matter to the little guy because both parties are corrupt. It is a distracting circus performed by the media, and a "Game of Thrones" among the elite.

It doesn't feel difficult to come up with ideas.

It is difficult to execute them. A lot of ideas can be killed with poor execution, while others are only exposed as bad ideas after a lot of hard work and it is sometimes hard to distinguish the two; which can be demoralizing. This is one of the biggest reasons for a coalition. We need people who will push each other to continue through the swamps when nothing seems to work or matter. It is far less about more hands equals more work. One really motivated person can do the work of 10 but they will burn out.

I would push back against the use of "elites"

The people abusing the system are the people in control of the system. The other people in powerful positions are at the very least allowing it to happen. It is impossible to prove motivation so it is impossible to condemn someone for being a Bolsheviki. It is even harder to convince less informed or less intelligent people why Bolshevism is bad and should be passionately opposed. Elite is a functioning proxy, even if it is just a proxy. It would obviously be better to specifically target individuals and specific policies and actions whenever possible. But I don't think it is reasonable to limit a response only when you can prove someone powerful has committed a crime. That is usually a bridge too far.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We need people who will push each other to continue through the swamps when nothing seems to work or matter.

Agree that morale type stuff is important.

The people abusing the system are the people in control of the system.

I think it's important to be specific in targeting the acts that are actually wrong and the actual specific people and organizations that have done them, otherwise it just becomes another demographic divide-and-conquer. I'm from a moderately wealthy family, I went to a private university, and I've supported a lot of liberal causes in the past (some but not all I no longer feel so great about having supported). I don't think I, my family, and the friends I made in these environments are acceptable collateral for semantic convenience. Turning people against the "elite" is a specifically bolshevik tactic.

The other people in powerful positions are at the very least allowing it to happen.

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen. Everyone who chooses entertainment and "it's somebody else's problem to deal with" over doing what they can every evening when they get home is allowing it to happen. Most people have some influence, and in the age of anonymous social media everyone can have a huge influence if they make use of that ability.

Well, maybe you find my perspective on this helpful, maybe not. I guess I'll see what direction you're trying to take this thing. I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites," wealthy people, successful people, etc, to be part of what I think needs correcting.

But I don't think it is reasonable to limit a response only when you can prove someone powerful has committed a crime. That is usually a bridge too far.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen.

Yes, some people can risk their lives to stand in front of a statue and most likely accomplish nothing with it; while others have the power to effect millions of lives with the stroke of a pen. These two people do not have the same responsibility.

And the statues aren't the problem, or the tearing down of them. They are a stepping stone to greater violence, but not the reason for the violence. It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM. The protesters and the riots are just symptoms. Standing in front of them is foolish.

I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites,"

Not anything I would advocate. It is a convenient shorthand. Any action taken would specifically address an issue. But at some point you need to talk in broad terms to convey to people how wide spread the problem is. While I agree that this should be avoided whenever possible, I don't think it is tenable to avoid it entirely. There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together. I recognize that to someone who is homeless it can seem like a business owner is by definition elite. And I recognize that demonizing people simply for having wealth is counterproductive and destructive.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

For example, we all know that Epstein didn't kill himself and the FBI among other organizations is covering this up. We know the media is complicit. Yet there is no way for us to prove any of it. Should we just ignore it then?

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted. This would put pressure on them to come forward. We should have special protection programs for whistle blowers. We should force laws that would exonerate people like Snowden and Assange. We should force those who are responsible for the cover up out of public office.

The NSA, FBI, and CIA are spying on us to an extent that is incomprehensible to most people. They selectively use this power against their enemies and opponents. They know who the pedophiles are in government. All we need is a law that specifically outlaws people known to the government of being pedophiles from holding office, laws that will punish those agencies if they don't enforce these laws, and laws to protect those who expose that corruption when it happens.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together.

When I hear elite, that's not what I think of really. I think of everyone who's become very successful, basically. The people in the most desirable positions, whether it's the head of their own large company, a government position, a highly respected tenured bioengineer, or even a highly skilled hacker who never reveals his name.

The problem isn't the success, the problem is the bad things. That plus a high level of power makes a dangerous threat. They're not worse people than violent criminals with smaller reach, they're just better at it.

Perhaps "powerful criminals".

The protesters and the riots are just symptoms.

I believe rioters should be held accountable. They weren't even "just following orders". They have agency, especially as a group: these riots could not have occurred without them.

I also disagree that the statues don't matter. The Brits protected theirs more. I cried reading that statue paid for by freed slaves was being attacked; what a profoundly beautiful, unifying, dignifying expression. That's part of OUR history. A NOBLE part. We should be PROUD, TOGETHER, and remember. That's why those things matter. Though yes, I agree that the anti-white teaching and all the stuff creating the protests is a bigger problem.

Overall though, I think I agree with you about a lot, and I'd rather focus efforts there.

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted.

Sounds helpful!

It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM.

Surely there are many fruitful avenues that would help hold people accountable for what they've done in this regard. Research to uncover what's going on here and who the actors are is probably needed too.