"Only in America can you be Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-War, Pro-Unmanned Drone Bombs, Pro-Nuclear Weapons, Pro-Guns, Pro-Torture, Pro-Land Mines, and still call yourself Pro-Life" John Fugelsang

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[–]Tom_Bombadil 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

I was a strident pro choice advocate, until recently.

Understanding the history and rationale behind the Planned Parenthood and eugenics movement, has irreversibly changed my understanding of this issue.

The movement to legalize abortion happened for all of the wrong reasons.

"Maafa21: Black Genocide in 21st Century America," is a documentary film produced by Life Dynamics Inc. that reveals how eugenics and population control has systematically been used to reduce Black births. Maafa is a Swahili word which means “a terrible tragedy,” referring to the time of the middle passage during the slave trade. The “21” in the title refers to the 21st century, because, in reality, the “Maafa” has not ended. It is still being carried out today.

This has nothing to do with religion.
This has everything to do with principles of morality and ethics.
This is the continuation of the eugenics movement.

I'm still not completely on either side, as the modern understanding is nuanced.

There's no doubt that the reasons for legalizing abortion were unconscionable.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

There's no doubt that the reason for legalizing abortion were unconscionable.

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you. If you've got a consistent moral framework with only a handful of axioms (e.g. preference utilitarianism, WWJD) then you can often turn situations like this to the advantage of everyone, because you're consistent and they're not, so they're more likely to run in a straight line by zig-zagging.

Yield when things are going your way, and resist when they're not. But please do try to help others. (Despite our disagreements, I do trust Tom to do this most of the time. You, the reader, on the other hand…)

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you.

My moral compass is true as ever. Being convinced of taking the right stance; means that one has been convinced.

New info was brought to my attention, which caused me to reconsider my position on this sensitive issue.

I was an ardent pro-choice supporter. At the time, I was horrified to realize that I had been working for the enemy's interests.

I completely understand why people choose to support pro-choice laws. The overwhelming majority of people who support pro-choice are morally and ethically virtuous individuals. This is a fact.

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

It's important to understand the history behind the (eugenics) groups who initiated and financed the pro-choice movement. It was never about a women's right to choose.
To these groups; abortion (pro-choice) has always been about the legal method for population reduction in specific demographics.

This is the reason that the eugenics movement continues to suppress it's history. People are not allowed to know the facts. Moral people oppose ethnic cleansing, and murderous injustice.

[–]HopeThatHalps 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy. It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy.

Suggesting that I said this is crazy. Regardless, the primary historical group pressing for abortion rights was the eugenics movement.

It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

Here's something that doesn't make sense: Abortion analogies that involve atheists views and breakfast cereals.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

You shouldn't make assumptions about me.

I'm a recently engaged hermaphrodite, who's planning on starting a family.
I would like up have 3 daughters, and a son.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

In all honesty, this post does little to convince me that you are engaging in clear and logical thinking. How you can't see that your argument amounts to "guilt by association" is beyond me.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Eugenics is the philosophy of genetic selection. Deciding which traits are desirable. Deciding winners, and losers.
Who will get to decide who loses, etc.?

The overwhelming moral majority rejects these ideas and those who espouse them. Eugenicists do not publically announce their views for good reason.

It's the opposite of guilt by association. I'm suggesting people will avoid association with Eugenicists.
Eugenics is shunned in many circles.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're the only person I've ever seen claim that abortion is necessarily an act of eugenics. Even the conservative right, who vehemently oppose abortion, do not claim it amounts to eugenics. I think maybe you enjoy the novelty of your argument more than you care about whether or not it is logically sound.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I've taken you into unscripted territory.

These are the hard facts that should be discussed/addressed. These facts simplify the debate.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Abortion is not eugenics. It's as simple as that.

Given how sensitive a subject abortion is; a ruling class of almost entirely men telling women what they can and can't do with their biology, I'd be careful about opposing abortion on such flimsy grounds. At least those who cite religious reasons are referencing a diety as the reason they believe what they do.