"Only in America can you be Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-War, Pro-Unmanned Drone Bombs, Pro-Nuclear Weapons, Pro-Guns, Pro-Torture, Pro-Land Mines, and still call yourself Pro-Life" John Fugelsang

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[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you.

My moral compass is true as ever. Being convinced of taking the right stance; means that one has been convinced.

New info was brought to my attention, which caused me to reconsider my position on this sensitive issue.

I was an ardent pro-choice supporter. At the time, I was horrified to realize that I had been working for the enemy's interests.

I completely understand why people choose to support pro-choice laws. The overwhelming majority of people who support pro-choice are morally and ethically virtuous individuals. This is a fact.

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

It's important to understand the history behind the (eugenics) groups who initiated and financed the pro-choice movement. It was never about a women's right to choose.
To these groups; abortion (pro-choice) has always been about the legal method for population reduction in specific demographics.

This is the reason that the eugenics movement continues to suppress it's history. People are not allowed to know the facts. Moral people oppose ethnic cleansing, and murderous injustice.

[–]HopeThatHalps 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy. It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy.

Suggesting that I said this is crazy. Regardless, the primary historical group pressing for abortion rights was the eugenics movement.

It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

Here's something that doesn't make sense: Abortion analogies that involve atheists views and breakfast cereals.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

You shouldn't make assumptions about me.

I'm a recently engaged hermaphrodite, who's planning on starting a family.
I would like up have 3 daughters, and a son.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

In all honesty, this post does little to convince me that you are engaging in clear and logical thinking. How you can't see that your argument amounts to "guilt by association" is beyond me.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Eugenics is the philosophy of genetic selection. Deciding which traits are desirable. Deciding winners, and losers.
Who will get to decide who loses, etc.?

The overwhelming moral majority rejects these ideas and those who espouse them. Eugenicists do not publically announce their views for good reason.

It's the opposite of guilt by association. I'm suggesting people will avoid association with Eugenicists.
Eugenics is shunned in many circles.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're the only person I've ever seen claim that abortion is necessarily an act of eugenics. Even the conservative right, who vehemently oppose abortion, do not claim it amounts to eugenics. I think maybe you enjoy the novelty of your argument more than you care about whether or not it is logically sound.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I've taken you into unscripted territory.

These are the hard facts that should be discussed/addressed. These facts simplify the debate.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Abortion is not eugenics. It's as simple as that.

Given how sensitive a subject abortion is; a ruling class of almost entirely men telling women what they can and can't do with their biology, I'd be careful about opposing abortion on such flimsy grounds. At least those who cite religious reasons are referencing a diety as the reason they believe what they do.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Abortion is not eugenics. It's as simple as that.

FTFY

Planned Parenthood and the African-American Community

Dr. Alveda King told me, “The leading cause of death in the African-American community is not gang-violence, gun violence, heart attack, stroke, HIV, high blood pressure, diabetes. People will name all these. No, it’s abortion. And the reason we have come to that conclusion, statistically, you’ve got 60 million plus abortions legal in America since 1973. About a third of those occur in the African-American community. That means dead babies. And, with us being 13 percent or less of America’s population, that means we are having more abortions.”*

Are you having difficulty coming up with responses to legit critical thinking?

Given how sensitive a subject abortion is; a ruling class of almost entirely men telling women what they can and can't do with their biology, I'd be careful about opposing abortion on such flimsy grounds. At least those who cite religious reasons are referencing a diety as the reason they believe what they do.

Something tells me that morally principled women may perceive the abortion debate quite differently if they realized that they were supporting another African American holocaust.

Yes, Planned Parenthood Targets And Hurts Poor Black Women

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The quote you posted has nothing to do with eugenics. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

At the time, I was horrified to realize that I had been working for the enemy's interests.

You're not going to achieve your goals in life if this is how you see things. Why should it matter if your enemy wants something that you also want? If your enemy wants all the same things as you, then you should help them; if they only want some things you want, then let them get the things you want and fight them tooth and claw to prevent them from getting the things you don't.

Planned Parenthood is a questionable organisation. But just because they support abortion doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Edit: I'm doing this again, aren't I. Never mind. Could you explain why you think that Planned Parenthood being part of the eugenics movement means that permitting abortion is wrong / less good?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You're not going to achieve your goals in life if this is how you see things. Why should it matter if your enemy wants something that you also want?

Unlike yourself, I don't want what the eugenicists want.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Eugenicists want to be happy and healthy, and want those they care about to be happy and healthy. They want the world – or at least the parts of the world in which they live – to be a place they can live and prosper, for as long as they live. You also want these things.

You disagree with eugenics. I also disagree with eugenics; probably for different reasons. But you've got common ground with the vast majority of eugenicists. Why is abortion different enough to the things in the paragraph above that eugenicists wanting it means that you want it not?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Eugenicists want to be happy and healthy, and want those they care about to be happy and healthy.

So, you're an Eugenics apologist?

The Nazi eugenics crimes were the most egregious.
Medical experimentation on humans.
Ethnic cleansing.

Unlike yourself, I don't want what the eugenicists want.

[–]wizzwizz4 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

And I thought you'd changed. 

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You're condescension is premature.

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you.

Having refuted your appeal in support of eugenics; I'm sitting on the pinnacle of the pyramid...

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Except you haven't refuted it. Please explain how you've refuted it, because I'm clearly too stupid to see.

Why is abortion different enough to the things in the paragraph above that eugenicists wanting it means that you want it not?

Please answer this question. What makes abortion different to the things that you agree with the eugenicists about?

Oh, and having made an ad hominem attack in lieu of an argument, you're not on the pinnacle of the pyramid.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What makes abortion different to the things that you agree with the eugenicists about?

This is a nonsense question. I'll ask you a similar question to demonstrate.

Wizz, what makes the holocaust different to the things that you agree with the Nazis about?

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It hurt people.

Your turn.