all 47 comments

[–]Jesus 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's because of demoralization and lack of courage. We've lost the God within and instead obey Law.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I was a strident pro choice advocate, until recently.

Understanding the history and rationale behind the Planned Parenthood and eugenics movement, has irreversibly changed my understanding of this issue.

The movement to legalize abortion happened for all of the wrong reasons.

"Maafa21: Black Genocide in 21st Century America," is a documentary film produced by Life Dynamics Inc. that reveals how eugenics and population control has systematically been used to reduce Black births. Maafa is a Swahili word which means “a terrible tragedy,” referring to the time of the middle passage during the slave trade. The “21” in the title refers to the 21st century, because, in reality, the “Maafa” has not ended. It is still being carried out today.

This has nothing to do with religion.
This has everything to do with principles of morality and ethics.
This is the continuation of the eugenics movement.

I'm still not completely on either side, as the modern understanding is nuanced.

There's no doubt that the reasons for legalizing abortion were unconscionable.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

There's no doubt that the reason for legalizing abortion were unconscionable.

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you. If you've got a consistent moral framework with only a handful of axioms (e.g. preference utilitarianism, WWJD) then you can often turn situations like this to the advantage of everyone, because you're consistent and they're not, so they're more likely to run in a straight line by zig-zagging.

Yield when things are going your way, and resist when they're not. But please do try to help others. (Despite our disagreements, I do trust Tom to do this most of the time. You, the reader, on the other hand…)

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you.

My moral compass is true as ever. Being convinced of taking the right stance; means that one has been convinced.

New info was brought to my attention, which caused me to reconsider my position on this sensitive issue.

I was an ardent pro-choice supporter. At the time, I was horrified to realize that I had been working for the enemy's interests.

I completely understand why people choose to support pro-choice laws. The overwhelming majority of people who support pro-choice are morally and ethically virtuous individuals. This is a fact.

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

It's important to understand the history behind the (eugenics) groups who initiated and financed the pro-choice movement. It was never about a women's right to choose.
To these groups; abortion (pro-choice) has always been about the legal method for population reduction in specific demographics.

This is the reason that the eugenics movement continues to suppress it's history. People are not allowed to know the facts. Moral people oppose ethnic cleansing, and murderous injustice.

[–]HopeThatHalps 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

However, I'm close to certain that more than 75% of the current pro-choice supporters would quickly become pro-life supporters; if they understood the actual history behind the pro-choice (eugenics) movement, and it's on-going intent.

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy. It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

To say that people who get abortions are engaging in eugenics comes across as a little crazy.

Suggesting that I said this is crazy. Regardless, the primary historical group pressing for abortion rights was the eugenics movement.

It's like saying if atheists knew breakfast cereal had religious roots, they would stop eating Corn Flakes. It makes no sense.

Here's something that doesn't make sense: Abortion analogies that involve atheists views and breakfast cereals.

I assume you're a guy, "Tom", and I'll go a step further an assume you're not looking to have any children beyond any you already have, and so you really don't have much "skin in the game", your position on abortion is whimsical, and of little consequence.

You shouldn't make assumptions about me.

I'm a recently engaged hermaphrodite, who's planning on starting a family.
I would like up have 3 daughters, and a son.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

In all honesty, this post does little to convince me that you are engaging in clear and logical thinking. How you can't see that your argument amounts to "guilt by association" is beyond me.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Eugenics is the philosophy of genetic selection. Deciding which traits are desirable. Deciding winners, and losers.
Who will get to decide who loses, etc.?

The overwhelming moral majority rejects these ideas and those who espouse them. Eugenicists do not publically announce their views for good reason.

It's the opposite of guilt by association. I'm suggesting people will avoid association with Eugenicists.
Eugenics is shunned in many circles.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're the only person I've ever seen claim that abortion is necessarily an act of eugenics. Even the conservative right, who vehemently oppose abortion, do not claim it amounts to eugenics. I think maybe you enjoy the novelty of your argument more than you care about whether or not it is logically sound.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I've taken you into unscripted territory.

These are the hard facts that should be discussed/addressed. These facts simplify the debate.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Abortion is not eugenics. It's as simple as that.

Given how sensitive a subject abortion is; a ruling class of almost entirely men telling women what they can and can't do with their biology, I'd be careful about opposing abortion on such flimsy grounds. At least those who cite religious reasons are referencing a diety as the reason they believe what they do.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

At the time, I was horrified to realize that I had been working for the enemy's interests.

You're not going to achieve your goals in life if this is how you see things. Why should it matter if your enemy wants something that you also want? If your enemy wants all the same things as you, then you should help them; if they only want some things you want, then let them get the things you want and fight them tooth and claw to prevent them from getting the things you don't.

Planned Parenthood is a questionable organisation. But just because they support abortion doesn't mean you shouldn't.


Edit: I'm doing this again, aren't I. Never mind. Could you explain why you think that Planned Parenthood being part of the eugenics movement means that permitting abortion is wrong / less good?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You're not going to achieve your goals in life if this is how you see things. Why should it matter if your enemy wants something that you also want?

Unlike yourself, I don't want what the eugenicists want.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Eugenicists want to be happy and healthy, and want those they care about to be happy and healthy. They want the world – or at least the parts of the world in which they live – to be a place they can live and prosper, for as long as they live. You also want these things.

You disagree with eugenics. I also disagree with eugenics; probably for different reasons. But you've got common ground with the vast majority of eugenicists. Why is abortion different enough to the things in the paragraph above that eugenicists wanting it means that you want it not?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Eugenicists want to be happy and healthy, and want those they care about to be happy and healthy.

So, you're an Eugenics apologist?

The Nazi eugenics crimes were the most egregious.
Medical experimentation on humans.
Ethnic cleansing.

Unlike yourself, I don't want what the eugenicists want.

[–]wizzwizz4 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

And I thought you'd changed. 

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You're condescension is premature.

Roll with the punches. Don't change your ethical stance just because Hitler agrees with you.

Having refuted your appeal in support of eugenics; I'm sitting on the pinnacle of the pyramid...

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Except you haven't refuted it. Please explain how you've refuted it, because I'm clearly too stupid to see.

Why is abortion different enough to the things in the paragraph above that eugenicists wanting it means that you want it not?

Please answer this question. What makes abortion different to the things that you agree with the eugenicists about?


Oh, and having made an ad hominem attack in lieu of an argument, you're not on the pinnacle of the pyramid.

[–]Adrift 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not any of these except the last, and I don't think I'm alone in that either.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

+3

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

I think the abortion debate will be one of the most analyzed in the future.

Once a guys cum is in a chicks pussy, it’s hers. How can there be any argument to that?

How delusional do you have to be to think you have a say whether 1. A human is going to bring another human to life (which entails carrying the “thing” around for 9 months) and 2. That that person wants to deal with the thing once it’s brought into the world at all. Dont tell me about adoption if you’ve never pushed a fucking watermelon out of your asshole.

Fuck any fat old prick that perpetuates the idea that conservatives believe in this insanity. Delusional assholes believe in it.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Abortion is murder. Everyone has a chance at life. God knew you before you even entered the womb. The Book of Enoch on tablets tells us how evil abortion is and this was 3,000 years ago and probably even much older. Now everyone is sacradicing rheir children for convenience sake, because that's mostly what it is for.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Edit: Forget everything below this, your entire belief system is based on something someone you don’t know wrote 3,000 years ago. Evaluate what you want in this world.

I recently made a detailed post outlining my position. To directly argue what you have here: there is no place for ideals written by cults 2,000 years ago in complex moral dilemmas. Simple as that.

Also, I will never understand how ignorant you have to be to say that God loves everyone when he let’s so many be born into fates worse than Hell.

Are humans animals? No. We do things for convenience. Getting rped by a child of god isn’t very convenient, but it still happens. Making that inconvenient situation as convenient as possible includes terminating pregnancies created by rpe. Or I guess created by God in your case. Remember he is all knowing and all powerful, meaning he is fine with children being r*ped, people being tortured, single moms living in 1 bedroom apartments with 5 kids, etc. If he wasn’t, he would change it because he knows this stuff is going on and has the power to change it but he simply chooses not to. Come to think of it, god is a massive asshole.

To conclude, the idea of god and religion is a great way to promote and create upstanding moral beliefs, but in no way should religious text have any weight in intense moral dilemmas.

Read my most recent post you should be able to find through my profile.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Considering you deleted your profile, it's difficult to find this most recent post. And I know that you can't reply, so readers please don't think that what I say is flawless logic just because it's unopposed.

Your argument here is predicated on stuff in the Bible being wrong, and therefore any conclusion based on the Bible is wrong – not just that the argument is wrong, but the conclusion is wrong.

This argument proves too much. "Thou shalt not kill", but God is clearly a terrible person and the Bible contains cult ideals, therefore murder is great. This argument proves too much.

Currently, you're invoking (the Christian) God's hypocrisy to prove your point, but then denying God's existence when that supports your argument. Pick one.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And Christians follow teh New Testement above all. The old is basically a law book and the history of expullsion of teh chosen people.

That being said, no where in the New Testement can I find anything that permits murder.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

God knew you before you even entered the womb. Does this not mean that the soul isn't created upon conception? We know by reason that the soul is intrinsically linked to the brain, so is the soul even there when the brain isn't?

Is it murder to prevent a conception? But what about immediately after conception? Cells have started dividing, but there isn't a brain or consciousness. Is stopping that murder? What if the embryo fails to implant?

(This isn't a criticism. You can tell that I disagree, but I'm mostly interested in your personal belief system.)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

so after the kid is born can the woman also just kill the kid, father has no say. no it's not just hers

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Read my latest post. Once the guys semen is in the chick, it’s hers.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

disagree

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's unfortunate that John Fugelsang is criticizing people for the most virtuous of their pro-positions.

I somehow doubt that he is/was aware of the eugenics movement's involvement in the pro-choice movement.

[–]HopeThatHalps 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm pro-choice, but to be honest, I think the pro-lifers have the upper hand in the moral debate. I think the pro-choicers are using bad arguments. For example, "my body , my choice", well a fetus is not necessarily "your body".

I'll admit it, in being pro-choice, you could say I'm "pro-murder", but so is anyone who believes in the death penalty, use of lethal force, justifiable war, etc. This is what drives pro-choicers to bad arguments, they're afraid to outright say that they're in favor of having the right to end the life of, kill, an unborn human, so long as it is there own.

[–]Troll 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

A baby in an American citizen's womb is a different thing from some slummy Muzzie who wants to conquer the world and install the world's "perfect religion" involving a pedophiliac "prophet."

[–]sodasplash 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Full disclosure, I went to a Catholic High School and one of the priests I was taught by always pointed out that he was genuinely Pro-Life because he was "pro-life" and also anti-death penalty. And I believe anti-war for the most part as well.

[–]The_Lear_Bluce_Ree 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow so deep.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

i'm pro war and pro life but it has to be a just war. with the current mid east wars they were based on lies however I do think muslim terrorism needs to be taken care of. 9/11 was a false flag but I don't think a lot of others are.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of wars are created with false flag.
Most of them, really.

Basically, any war involving the US since WW2 is a false flag initiated war.

The US is the richest and most powerful empire in all of human history.
No one is crazy enough to start a war with the US, so false flags are required.

Also, Muslim terrorism is a hoax. It's almost all Israeli operations conducted to vilify Arabs, so they can conquer the middle east for Eretz Israel.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Tangent: reply to the above comment if you want to address what /u/Tom_Bombadil was originally saying.

The US is the richest and most powerful empire in all of human history.

Do you mean absolutely, or relative to other contemporary empires? If the latter, I think the Roman Empire and British Empire have something to say about that.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

That Eretz Israel detail is a problem for you isn't it?

Do you mean absolutely, or relative to other contemporary empires?

Is this an accidental forum slide, or a deliberate forum slide? :-/

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really, no. Israel's a country; we shouldn't make it inherently immune from accusations, even if these accusations are largely speculation. You might be confusing this with the problem I have against labelling all Jews evil Zionists who hate [insert country of residence here].

And I don't think it's a forum slide, because anyone can just reply to your comment. But I wasn't deliberately doing this, no. Tell you what: I'll add a little preface to the comment above to make it all better.