"The mine owners did not find the gold, they did not mine the gold, they did not mill the gold, but by some weird alchemy all the gold belonged to them!" - William "Big Bill" Haywood

submitted by magnora7 from (i.imgur.com)

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[–]Zombi 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"The miners did not write their own paychecks, they didn't organize themselves, they didn't manage themselves, and they didn't fund the endeavor yet through some alchemy they still found gold!"

Like, I get CEO's get WAAAY more than they're due, but they ARE due something. The head gets the lions share because NO gold would have been mined if they weren't there to direct and manage the workers.

Do I agree with the large disparity between the pay between workers and management? Not to the extreme it's at today, but that doesn't contradict the point I'm making.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree with your point. If the CEOs had the same salary as the workers, or even just slightly larger, there would be no problem. But as it stands the average CEO has 425x the income of the average worker. Anything more than about 40x is just insanity, and in fact france and germany have laws to that effect. The lowest paid worker to CEO salary ratio has a max cap.

[–]Zombi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oh yes of course. I think the ratio is honestly gross in some regards with just how much more the CEO makes. I DO think the head of the project should make more than the workers supporting it, though. Without a head, the body cannot live. Without a finger, the body is slightly inconvenienced. Again, though, I do NOT support the insane amount the head gets, but it should certainly be more. A lot of your pay should (ideally) be based on how replaceable you are tbh. It sounds cold, but it makes sense. Not saying workers shouldn't get a livable wage, but the fact remains that they just aren't important individually like the people who manage them. A singular bad worker can be inconvenient, but ultimately non detrimental to a project. A bad manager can turn the best crew of the finest workers into an unproductive mess and completely ruin the entire operation.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can agree with that, but the problem then comes from the CEOs who are "unreplaceable" and thus are worth paying $50M per year or whatever insane number. It's a lot easier to do a lung transplant than a head transplant, so it can be hard to gauge something like the CEO's replacement cost. I kind of like the way germany and france have their limits set, because this means if they want a raise for themselves, they have to raise the salary of the lowest-paid workers in their company in order to get it. I think this sort of mandated salary relationships is a good thing, it seems a smart way to reduce exploitation of those who are "easily replaceable"

[–]Zombi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

As far as just how much a CEO should be paid I honestly can't think of a good system as that's too over my head. I like your example of France/Germany, that seems extremely fair. It's insane how much money they can hoard when that could easily go back to the workers or hell, go towards charity or some other good cause. But no, they just hoard money... sooooo much money that if they'd give even a fraction away to their workers it would make their quality of life so much better. Just a 10k bonus could be the difference between someone getting a much needed surgery and someone suffering due to lack of funds.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. The marginal improvement to having a billion dollars vs a billion dollars and one million dollars, is so minuscule. However that million dollars can do so much good help for so many people. And typically these are working people, who have earned their money, it's not some hand out! People deserve a quality life in America.

Being a billionaire should be illegal and globally frowned-upon, just like war criminals. I have hope that someday world culture will make this shift.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Flip it on it's head. Have a workers coop. Everyone has a voice and decides on how it's run. They hire a manager. If the manager screws up he's replaceable.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Maybe they hadn't heard of Worker Directed Enterprises aka Worker Cooperatives or Worker Coops.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

No! Socialism bad!

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I hope you're joking.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, that was a joke. Of course, all things have bad implementations, but generally I don't think socialism is a terrible idea.

[–]Optimus85 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, he just forgot to put the sarcasm tag...

[–]Doob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

If you have the capital to 1. Buy the land 2. Pay someone to estimate it's value 3. Employ people I think you are entitled to some of that gold.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes but how did they get the capital? From their parents, usually. Who got their capital doing the same thing.

Most people are simply locked out of this game, not because they're unable to do it, but because they weren't born in to a context of having the capital to do stuff like that

[–]Doob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I agree being born into wealth is easier than getting your own wealth. It's unfair to shit on everyone that runs a successful business because you aren't well off how they are tho. End of the day this gave people jobs and opportunities they would not have had.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A successful business would empower the employees and reward them for their hard work, not act as wealth-vacuuming machine to steal people's labor in exchange for a pittance. The latter is no a successful business, regardless how many billions the CEO managed to pilfer away.

End of the day this gave people jobs and opportunities they would not have had.

People said the same thing about monarchies. And slavery. Doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do things. Like worker-owned businesses, where the employees are all shareholders and vote in the meetings. This sort of company model is the way of the future.

[–]Doob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No one HAD to work there. Clearly this option worked for some people. If it was a shitty deal workers could seek employment elsewhere.

"Reward them for their hard work." It's called a paycheck, bud.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If it was a shitty deal workers could seek employment elsewhere.

Not when there isn't anywhere else, because they've created a monopoly via regulatory capture.

[–]Zombi 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly this. I wonder why there aren't 100's of independent workers all coming together to mine and sell gold? Oh yeah, cause they need someone to guide them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

no because they get jfked if they try to organize

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because 100 independent workers don't have the political power to measure up to the establishment rigged systems from before time to challenge the ruling class stranglehold on natural resources.

If you and a few of your fraternity brother secret society billionaire friends want to band together to form an oil company and start drilling in your county or anywhere there won't be many problems.

If you and a thousand workers band together to form an ecologically responsible oil company to start drilling in the county you live in there's too much red tape, legalese, and political suppression that it will never happen.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

not if inherited that wealth