"Our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy" - Karl Marx

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[–]jet199 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Marx, of course, was the most bourgeois person in existence.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

LOL. True (ish).

[–]EndlessSunflowers[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Hilarious to see manipulated minds cry about marxists and socialists with zero understanding of either

[–]tomatosplat 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Yup. Especially the part where all forms of Marxism fail every time.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Then why is the USA becoming more communist every day?

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

what does that got to do with failure?

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Capitalism has failed every 4-7 years with a crash, depression, recession, or whatever you want to call it. From the Dot Bomb of 2000 to 2008 was extra long and extra harsh with NOTHING fixed - as was the 2008 to 2020 repeating the same shit but blaming it on the COVID-1984 scamdemic.

Communism and capitalism are essentially the same things. Totalitarianism and inverted-totalitarianism. Both are fucked up and evil.

[–]Druullus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We don't have capitalism, we have collectivism/corporatism.

[–]Markimus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

How so? The working class are continually getting poorer.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Both capitalism and communism screw the working class rigged in favour of the ruling class.

Marx talked about taking back the means of production, but to give it over to the ruling class, oligarchs, government, corporations etc. is to screw the little guy.

Worker directed enterprises, aka cooperatives, are the ONLY solution that I know of to put the power back in the hands of the workers.

[–]Markimus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, an economic third position (corporatism, syndicalism, distributism) is the only ethical economic system.

We need guilds for small businesses and corporations/syndicates to organise all the large ones and that give the workers representation so they can negotiate profit sharing and working conditions. With guilds and syndicates we can prevent monopolisation, protect real competition and markets whilst eliminating exploitation, everyone's happy except the bankers and monopolists.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]jet199 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Marx's idea of communism came from literal communes, just like hippy communes full of peace and love but in Victorian times. He didn't imagine such ideas taken to state level would lead to authoritarianism. But then even now such set ups often lead to one dominant personality taking over or child abuse so likely the clues were there he just didn't want to see them.

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    The communes came after Marx.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto (1848)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune (1871)

    Both were in Victorian times.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_era (June 20, 1837 - January 22, 1901)

    I agree: the ruling class' psychopathic monopolistic extremism is a problem worse than capitalism or communism.

    [–]Mental 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

    https://stoppingsocialism.com/2020/07/hitler-was-a-socialist-who-learned-from-karl-marx/

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    What's wrong with Hitler?

    [–]Druullus 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    megalomaniac!

    [–]Markimus 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    Megalobased*

    [–]boeing737 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    Fake news

    [–]Druullus 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    how so?

    [–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

    who will control the means of production/produce in this system?

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

    Which system? The globalists are establishing their capitalist-communist-totalitarian "new normal" system as we're distracted by COVID and elections.

    [–]Druullus 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

    marxist/socialist/communist system.

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    Those are NOT synonyms.

    And you didn't explain which system. Capitalism and communism are merging. The US is more communist than ever. Russia and China are more capitalist than ever. The entire world is more globalist than ever - especially under this COVID-1984 scamdemic "New Normal World Order".

    [–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

    What does synonyms got to do with it?

    Topic is a quote by Karl Marx(ist).

    Capitalism and communism are merging ?

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    You used all 3 to describe one system. They are distinctly different. Pick one, if you must. When you said, "Who will control the means of production/produce in this system?" I would recommend that worker directed cooperatives are the answer. But the powers that shouldn't be won't allow alternatives and solutions for us debt slaves.

    " Capitalism and communism are merging ? "

    Into the global totalitarian technocratic corporatocracy. Sure they will still create national enemies for their perpetual wars and death machine economies, but it's all intentional - just as it was in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    [–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    Which system was Marx referring to in this quote:

    Our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy

    How are people prevented from forming worker directed cooperatives, ? Is this worker directed cooperatives ?

    Why not call it collectivism, why Capitalism and communism are merging ?

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Without more context I can't tell you.

    Marx was a critic of capitalism. Most capitalists can't tolerate any criticism of their system, via narrow mindedness, dogma, or propaganda. Marx had his pros and cons and some blind spots, intentional or not - like everyone.

    Socialism is a process for the collective good or bad or both. A process like science, a tool, that can be used for good and/or bad. Most folks in the USA don't understand socialism due to many socially engineered factors. It's not a force for evil - but it can be.

    Communism is a corrupt totalitarian deviant fork from socialism.

    Yes. Worker directed enterprises are coops. They are the 3rd and only form of socialism that I fully endorse.

    " A worker cooperative is a cooperative that is owned and self-managed by its workers. This control may mean a firm where every worker-owner participates in decision-making in a democratic fashion, or it may refer to one in which management is elected by every worker-owner who each have one vote. "

    I need to post more in /s/Cooperatives soon.

    Collectivism seems too vague a term without a common context. Communism is totalitarianism (ie. all government and corporations answer to Putin). Capitalism is inverted-totalitarianism (ie. all corporations tell Trump and government what to do). Both are totalitarian with a little difference at the very top. Meanwhile above it all is the B.I.S.

    [–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    So I wrote marxist/socialist/communist system because Marx is connected to them all.

    What's wrong with allocating resources via supply and demand in a free market, with private property, freedom of choice, freedom of association etc?

    How does allocating resources via supply and demand in a free market, with private property, freedom of choice, freedom of association etc stop process for the collective good or bad or both. A process like science, a tool, that can be used for good and/or bad. Most folks in the USA don't understand socialism due to many socially engineered factors. It's not a force for evil - but it can be.

    Isn't communism the end goal, i.e. a stateless society? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

    How does allocating resources via supply and demand in a free market, with private property, freedom of choice, freedom of association etc stop A worker cooperative is a cooperative that is owned and self-managed by its workers. This control may mean a firm where every worker-owner participates in decision-making in a democratic fashion, or it may refer to one in which management is elected by every worker-owner who each have one vote ?

    Collectivism is forced centralization/"cooperation" etc.

    Putin is not a communist.

    Special interest groups get to use the the collectivist forced centralization/"cooperation" etc to enrich themselves in a collectivist society, it has nothing to do with capitalism.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    This logic can be applied to any ideology, not just Communism. When your political movement is just the 'tagtail' of the establishment, your movement will inevitably fail.

    Any time Progressives or Conservatives have tried to reform the Democratic and Republican parties, they have always failed — because we cannot be successful as Progressive Democrats or Conservative Republicans, but rather only as Progressives and Conservatives.