"Getting rid of capitalist 'exploiters' in Communist countries did not raise the living standards of workers, even to levels common in many capitalist countries, where workers were presumably still being exploited, as Marxists conceived the term." - Thomas Sowell

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[–]sudd3nclar1ty 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

We'll start with Thomas Sowell. US Marine Corp, fought against communists in Korean War with PhD from Chicago. The infamous Chicago Boys who helped Pinochet with extreme capitalism that required a brutal military dictatorship to give away resources to elites and multinationals. Branded by neolibs as the Chilean Miracle, "the regime left over 3,000 dead or missing, tortured tens of thousands of prisoners, and drove an estimated 200,000 Chileans into exile."

One could say the ussr was successful, compared to life under the tsar, this was a come up. China is obviously doing big things, but they are more fascist state capitalists than communist. Cuba has survived, despite being under the boot of the US. Vietnam is doing fine for the last 40 years.

El Salvador, Nicaragua, Peru and Venezuela had communist governments that all felt the wrath of the us either through coup or embargo and are actively prevented from functioning outside the communist sphere of influence.

I'd say that considering the venom and propaganda against communists, they've done ok. The issue, as always, is that the elites have the wealth and the guns. Communism threatens the elites. I'm surprised more people aren't supportive of the working man and would rather imagine they can get rich too.

[–]cybitch 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The USSR was a fucking shithole for anyone who wasn't Russian. An imperialistic, genocidal tyranny full of greedy bureaucrats. Tankies are the worst scum on this planet, as bad as nazis if not worse because nazis are a thing of the past, but commie BS is taking over the west at the moment.

The issue here is that unfortunately human beings are unable to work in harmony without leaders. Hierarchies will form naturally. So the utopia of everyone being equal that's supposed to follow the big slaughtering of the rich will never happen, instead new elites rise to the top while spewing BS propaganda about being for the people or whatever. Meanwhile the people have less power than ever, nepotism, censorship and slave camps for wrongthinkers thrive.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

And yet for almost all of human history, people practiced social equality. The need for heirarchy is a myth.

"Christopher Boehm, having explored data from 48 societies spread across the globe, ranging from small hunting and gathering bands to more sedentary chiefdoms, suggested that with the advent of anatomically modern humans who continued to live in small groups and had not yet domesticated plants and animals (hunter-gatherer), it is very likely that all human societies practised egalitarianism and that most of the time they did so very successfully."

"The term egalitarianism has two distinct definitions in modern English, either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social and civil rights, or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people, economic egalitarianism, or the decentralization of power. Some sources define egalitarianism as equality reflecting the natural state of humanity."

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

for almost all of human history, people practiced social equality. The need for heirarchy is a myth.

"Christopher Boehm, having explored data from 48 societies spread across the globe, ranging from small hunting and gathering bands to more sedentary chiefdoms, suggested that with the advent of anatomically modern humans who continued to live in small groups and had not yet domesticated plants and animals (hunter-gatherer), it is very likely that all human societies practised egalitarianism and that most of the time they did so very successfully."

This is wrong btw.

Heirarchy is standard in HG tribes, it's just along family lines.

Hunter Gatherers are also violent as hell, and most of them live in a state of perpetual warfare with their neighbours. Genocide, murder, rape are all more common with HGs than current western populations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization

Keeley says peaceful societies are an exception. About 90-95% of known societies engage in war. Those that did not are almost universally either isolated nomadic groups (for whom flight is an option), groups of defeated refugees, or small enclaves under the protection of a larger modern state. The attrition rate of numerous close-quarter clashes, which characterize warfare in tribal warrior society, produces casualty rates of up to 60%, compared to 1% of the combatants as is typical in modern warfare.

Boehm has some very outdated hippy views.