Russia-Ukraine live updates: To take Kyiv, Russia will have to 'kill all residents': Zelenskyy (So nice of him to volunteer the lives of his people)

submitted by Jackalope from (abcnews.go.com)

all 14 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]dingoatemytaco 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Millions of people are leaving Ukraine. Zelenskyy is not sacrificing them. Nor should he or thay leave if they don't want to . Zelenskyy is one of many who understand the importance of standing up to authoritarian abuses and war crimes. And they're doing so heroically. Ukrainians are showing the rest of the world how wonderful they are. There is no scenario where Putin's approaches should be tolerated. War crimes and authoritarian abuses like his and his supporters (inc. GOP, Saidit &c) must be challenged and stopped in all cases, and at all costs. Zalenskyy's comments reflect the concerns of billions of people worldwide. Our freedom depends the limiting and destruction of authoritarianism and fascism. The people of Ukraine are fighting for so many of US who will face the consequences of this authoritarianism if it continues.

[–]Jackalope[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I am no fan of Putin and his authoritarianism, and certainly don't support what he is doing.

It just seems to me like the Ukrainian people would have been better off with remaining neutral, not joining NATO, and not getting invaded, and I cannot for the life of me understand why he would choose war over neutrality. Yes I like standing up to authoritarians, but this doesn't seem like it was in the best interests of the Ukrainian people, and it feels like Zelensky is not allowed to be criticized at all, or I am automatically pro-Putin

[–]dingoatemytaco 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it's OK to criticize anyone. But the fact remains: Ukraine did not join NATO, nor were they realistically going to join NATO. Even if they had joined NATO, it would not justify bombing the country to rubble and committing war crimes against it. Putin has made every Ukrainian a hero after invading. Their ability to fight back is very important. They are innocent victims. Zelensky's identity and approaches are only a small part of all Ukraine, and thus insignificant. Pro-Russian propaganda want you to focus on one person as the cause of this invasion. That's really stupid and does not justify the invasion. What is important now are the sacrifices of all Ukrainians for their country, against war criminals in Russia. Focusing on one person makes no sense. Focusing on NATO makes no sense. These are war crimes and murders of numerous Ukrainians. There will always be a remnant of Ukraine to fight back. Putin will not succeed even if he takes over Kiev. (I am really angry. None of this is toward you, Jack.)

[–]Jackalope[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pro-Russian propaganda want you to focus on one person as the cause of this invasion. That's really stupid and does not justify the invasion.

Yes I agree, I did not intend to infer that Putin's actions were in any way justified. He is a bad actor, and I am taking that fact for granted in all this. I simply am not convinced of the Zelensky hero narrative either though. I am very wary of overly simplistic narrative propaganda, and I am not convinced that Zelensky is a hero, or even that has he has decided on the best course of action for his people. His attitude towards Ukrainian lives seems a bit cavalier to me, and I suspect that the media is not giving me objective coverage in any way.

[–]raven9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ukraine did not join NATO but that is in the technical sense only. In the practical sense Ukraine has been a NATO tool for years. If you had listened to Putin's speech he never said anything about taking over Ukraines civilian cities. The purpose is only to remove the NATO backed military. There would be no need to waste resources on occupying civilian cities. The attacks on hospitals etc are obvious false flags to muster international support for sanctions on Russia. Anyone with intelligence can see Russia would be shooting themselves in the foot by committing attrocities and the Russian leadership has nothing to gain from that. The problem is as we saw by the way the majority lined up like lemmings for the vaxx, intelligence is in very short supply.

[–]raven9 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Because Zelensky is a globalist puppet. That is why the corporate media is rabid in their support of him regardless of his support for Neo-nazi elements in their military. Their entire agenda was to weaponize Ukraine against Russia.

[–]Jackalope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is more plausible than anything I am hearing from MSM, appreciate your take

[–]ElectricSheep 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't quite get why fighting back is such a brave stance on saidit.

Tell me that you'd just drop the keys and walk away if your neighbor told you that they own your house now.

[–]Jackalope[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Tell me that you'd just drop the keys and walk away if your neighbor told you that they own your house now.

Certainly not. Zelensky however, preferred having his people killed to remaining neutral, so he essentially is at fault. For him to volunteer the lives of every citizen over something that he is responsible for is monstrous IMO.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is clearly nonsense.

Zelensky wouldn't be able to make that choice of he didn't have majority support in the first instance.

Even in the most pro-Russian cities the Ukrainians are fighting the invaders. They could easily have surrendered when the tanks started to roll in no matter what was going on in Kiev.

[–]Jackalope[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Zelensky wouldn't be able to make that choice of he didn't have majority support in the first instance.

I am not sure, you could be right. It seems to me that Presidents often have the power to make decisions that the majority does not support, but I am no expert on Ukrainian politics I will admit.

Even in the most pro-Russian cities the Ukrainians are fighting the invaders. They could easily have surrendered when the tanks started to roll in no matter what was going on in Kiev.

This is actually a very good point that I had not considered, so I appreciate you bringing this up. It is possible you are correct, and Zelensky really is representing the wishes of his people. I think I am just not willing to take the word of the MSM after their 2 year long campaign of misinformation, and this narrative sounds a little simplistic to me. Perhaps I am looking for holes where there are none, but in general I think a level of skepticism is healthy concerning our international engagements given our history of lies about Iraq, and the recent MSM covid propaganda.

[–]raven9 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

No one can have any idea what is really going on in the face of the obvious wall of propaganda that is flooding both mainstream and social media. Who is fighting in the civilian areas? Who is attacking hospitals and schools? They say it is Russia. I'd say be skeptical.

[–]Jackalope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't believe a word I hear from much of any source on this, it's an active propaganda war. I assume everything the government and media tell me is a complete lie until proven otherwise.

[–]In-the-clouds 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When the government changes from one political party to another, they don't always kick the people out. The new government wants the tax money.

In the US, when the Democrats took control of the White House, the military didn't come to the houses of Republicans and kick them out. As long as we pay our property taxes, they let us stay in our homes.