The Auschwitz Death Toll was a Lie.

submitted by sausageroll from self.politics

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[–]Tarrock 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

The international red cross counted 271k. Almost all dead due to disease and starvation (caused by allies bombing supply lines).

[–]jet199 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

How did they count?

[–]jacques1102 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

This myth of a Red Cross document originates with famous Holocaust Denier Richard Harwood in his propaganda book Did Six Million really die, which has not only been disproven several times – among the most famous incidents at the trial of Ernst Zündel – but also by the International Committee of the Red Cross itself.

Harwood is in typical fashion for deniers twisting evidence and words in this case. He cites a document by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross compiled in response to a query regarding the number of deaths in concentration camps they had so far recorded based on surviving documents from the various camp administrations. Given the practice, as the Nazis themselves described it, that the majority of Jewish prisoners send to camps like Auschwitz or the Reinhard Camps were not even registered in those camps but rather killed immediately upon arrival and that a lot of the documentation of the Nazis was destroyed by the same Nazis before the end of the war – this document was never intended or claimed as numbering all the victims of the Nazi killing spree. Yet Harwood and other deniers ignore this and base their dubious and politically and morally abhorrent claims on the falsification of this document among other things. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0031322X.1978.9969431

[–]stay_hydrated 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

The red cross number is not really believable for the total holocaust death toll. Clearly far more Jews died than a couple hundred thousand given this war killed 80 million people, including 10-13 million Germans and tens of millions of Eastern Europeans, and Jews were the primary enemies of the Nazis. It's really nonsense to believe the Nazis took such great care to prevent Jewish deaths that such a small number were killed.

Having said that, the 6 million number is clearly inflated and I have never heard a credible rationale for how that number was arrived at that didnt include cherry picked statements by Nazis while ignoring countless other statements and evidence, and including sketchy estimates about census figures before and after the war that further cherry picks evidence while ignoring counter evidence and logical explanations for discrepancies.

So tell us how many Jews were killed by the Nazis during the war? I honestly don't claim to know the real death toll. I would guess between 1.5 million and 4.5 million, but I have no firm way of knowing. I only know the supposed methods used to come up with 6 million are far from definitive and leave a ton of wiggle room for manipulation and exaggeration.

[–]jacques1102 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So you don't know how many jews died but insist that it couldn't of been 6 million?What you ignore is that there were 5 million non jews who were also killed by the nazis as well.People who would have no reason to promote a "jewish lie".there exists today a compiled database of more than three million names of jewish victims of the holocaust, and it may be as high as 4.2 million names in total. The Nazi regime did keep some records on their killings. There exist reports from camp leaders about the average rates of the camps as well as information taken from Adolph Eichmann himself which rests it at roughly the 6 million mark. If you compare this information to postwar census data and the prewar information on total amount of jewish population in specific areas you also end up with a figure ranging from around 5.3 million to 6.2 million. We may never know the exact number thanks to uncertainty of actual jewish population in some areas (for example, stalinist russia) as well as the actions of the Einsatzgruppen, which often killed "subhumans" without doing any paperwork recording the exact numbers. The number may vary wildly but the 6 million figure is the most accurate APPROXIMATION we have based on the given information

sources: Wilhelm Höttl, an SS officer and a Doctor of History, testified at the Nuremberg Trials and Eichmann's trial that at a meeting he had with Eichmann in Budapest in late August 1944, "Eichmann ... told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 (six million) Jews had perished until then – 4,000,000 (four million) in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 (two million) through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc. Dawidowicz, Lucy S. (1986). The war against the Jews, 1933–1945. New York: Bantam Books. ISBN 0-553-34302-5.p. 403 Martin Gilbert (2002). The Routledge atlas of the Holocaust, 3rd Ed. London: Routledge. p. 245. ISBN 0-415-28145-8.

[–]stay_hydrated 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

So you don't know how many jews died but insist that it couldn't of been 6 million?

I dont insist it couldnt have been 6 million. It's possible. Just not likely. Unlike you, I'm honest.

What you ignore is that there were 5 million non jews who were also killed by the nazis as well.

I don't know the exact number of this either, and neither do you. The Germans fought a war, they killed a lot of people and had a lot of their people killed. Some of the people they killed were unarmed civilians, and a lot of the Germans killed were unarmed civilians. The exact numbers and manner of deaths of everyone killed I dont know, and neither do you. The issue has been so propagandized that it's extremely difficult to ascertain the exact truth 80 years later. Again, I'm honest about this.

People who would have no reason to promote a "jewish lie".there exists today a compiled database of more than three million names of jewish victims of the holocaust, and it may be as high as 4.2 million names in total.

Actually the people who compiled this list had every reason to promote a lie, and a list of names in and of itself means nothing without evidence proving they were real people and the manner of their deaths.

Your evidence for the 6 million number seems to come from one SS officer who was facing execution and possibly undergoing torture allegedly stating he heard another Nazi SS officer claim 4 million died in camps and 2 million through shooting operations, and this other officer claiming under threat of execution and possibly torture that this was true. You also claim census data supports the 6 million number but the original census figures would have to be accurate and the later census figures would have to account for the massive migration of Jews that undoubtedly happened during the war years and immediately after, the fact after the war many Jews would be reluctant to reveal themselves in a postwar census, the fact birth rates would have plummeted during a time of war and hardship when large numbers of people were detained and segretated, and overall death rates of all causes, including natural causes, would have skyrocketed during the same harsh times. It would also have to account for active soldiers and partisan deaths. That's all a pretty tall order, with a LOT of room for exaggeration and manipulation, especially given the pressure to prove the 6 million number right and the threat of blacklisting and in some cases imprisonment if your numbers didnt arrive at the desired outcome.

[–]jacques1102 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

6 million jews and 5 million non jews were killed.Literally no where has that number has changed.What school did you go to where the numbers kept changing?Also where's the evidence the jewish population went up and not down after ww2? https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/holocaust-denial/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/ I'm giving you several sources and you've given nothing.

[–]stay_hydrated 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

6 million jews and 5 million non jews were killed.Literally no where has that number has changed.

Are you not comprehending what I'm writing? That is literally my point. The Holodomor death toll has continually changed and been revised, even in recent years, while the Holocaust number has not.

Also where's the evidence the jewish population went up and not down after ww2?

I never claimed the Jewish population went up during the war, it most likely decreased for the reasons I mentioned in my comment, in addition to whatever number of deaths occurred from Nazi atrocities. Maybe re-read my comment.