Ukrainian Ambassador freaks out, telling Elon Musk to ‘F– Off’ after he catually outlines the obvious fair and honest way to peace with Russia on Twitter, without the fake dog-and-pony show

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[–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Ukraine is a large country: biggest country in Europe area-wise (excluding Russia and Turkey as Eurasian countries) and with a population of about one third of Russia's. It's ridiculous to argue a relatively large country shouldn't have the right to choose its own path of development. And this development has been adopting most Western values and democracy. I'm from a very small ex-socialist country with plenty of "US involvement", which I approve of, because otherwise we'd likely be a part of Putler's shithole country by now. Bottom line is: no civilized nation really wants to be a Russian protectorate, whilst lots of such nations agree to become a US protectorate. Why is that?

[–]sampleusername 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I don't care who is in charge. It's just kind of dumb to insist that the US would be able to forever exert its influence over nations that share a border with Russia. That's as untenable as Russia maintaining control of Cuba, or doing worse and trying to capture Mexico.

It's not possible to have a one world system of supply chains and government that persists through the ages, as we are all hardwired for greed and selfishness, leading to eventual degradation and collapse. And when that happens the first nations to fall away are always those that are furthest from the epicenter of power and closest to the borders of their enemies.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's as untenable as Russia maintaining control of Cuba, or doing worse and trying to capture Mexico.

You are absolutely right, there are a lot of parallels between the Cuban missile crises and what we see in Ukraine, just with the roles reversed. We were ourselves were ready to go to war over a hostile power building military bases in our backyard

[–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The difference of course being that USA is a wealthy democratic country, and Ukraine is a rather poor democratic country, whilst the USSR was a very poor tyranny and Cuba was a GDP-wise wealthy country with many poor social indicators that the Soviet-aligned communist tyranny there ruined completely. You're drawing false analogies.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah we didn't care about the missile bases at all, it was all just concern over Cuba's social indicators, how could I be so blind.

[–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Of course Kennedy had to care, because even under the "liberal" Khruschev the USSR was a nasty imperialist country, a cancer. How does this compare with Ukraine? suppose it had been accepted to NATO. So which threat would it posed to anyone? americans launching missiles to target Moscow, so as to "spread NWO and globohomo"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

the USSR was a nasty imperialist country,

And the US wasn't and isn't? Are you aware of our actions in South America and the Middle East over the last 50 years? And the lack of humanitarian military intervention in places like Africa where we didn't have economic or imperial interests?

How does this compare with Ukraine?

An empire hostile to Russia (us) built military bases in their backyard (Ukraine), and they freaked out just like we did when they put missile in our backyard (Cuba)

so as to "spread NWO and globohomo"?

You are mistaking me for some sort of alt-right ideologist, I am not, I am pretty far to the left on most issues. Being anti-war anti-US imperialist intervention used to be a standard left wing position

[–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

US imperialism vs. Soviet imperialism? Look, we can play the apples and oranges game endlessly. Not a single country ever joined the Soviet bloc willingly. Let's say, a country with a functioning democratic system where people have a reasonable choice.

Now how does this compare to lots of ex-socialist, now functioning democracies joining the camp of "US imperialism"? Why is that? You're still arguing that all superpowers are pretty much equally good and bad?

As to the standard leftist counterpoints (I initially thought you're some alt-wrong antisemitic zealot like the other guy opposing me here, hence "globohomo" trope, I do apologize, I was a moderate lefty in my youth myself): USA propped up the right-wing dictatorships in Latin America to avoid them going communist, in case the establishment couldn't see any alternatives. Venezuela had left populist tendencies but CIA didn't launch any coup there, it continued to be a 2-party democracy. Support for hard-right regimes however included massively turning blind eye to human rights violations. And even then, Dems under Carter began to pressure the most obnoxiuous regimes, regrettably Carter didn't get the second term.

After the Cold War was over, the US didn't support any far-right movements any more and left the Latin America alone. And now you have Nicaragua and the Venezuelan dictatorship, which lets people die of malnutrition in a country that once had a GDP per capita higher than that of West Germany!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

US imperialism vs. Soviet imperialism? Look, we can play the apples and oranges game endlessly. Not a single country ever joined the Soviet bloc willingly. Let's say, a country with a functioning democratic system where people have a reasonable choice.

Yeah I'll concede that Soviet imperialism was a worse thing than Western imperialism.

You're still arguing that all superpowers are pretty much equally good and bad?

No, just that we aren't innocent, and justifying our involvement by 'because Russia is doing imperialism' is somewhat hypocritical

USA propped up the right-wing dictatorships in Latin America to avoid them going communist

Yes...but not for ideological reasons. For economic reasons. We very very much want the natural resources in these countries to remained privatized so we can exploit them, nationalizing these resources under any sort of socialist or communist regime is a recipe for a US coup or embargo.

Our coups, sanctions, drug wars and other mischief are probably to blame for the current border crisis

After the Cold War was over, the US didn't support any far-right movements any more and left the Latin America alone.

. And now you have Nicaragua and the Venezuelan dictatorship, which lets people die of malnutrition

Well...we stopped doing outright coups. We are the ones doing fuel and food embargos and keeping venezuelans from eating.

https://fair.org/home/calibrated-dishonesty-western-media-coverage-of-venezuela-sanctions/

Yes its a dictatorship, but we have supported a ton of those over the years as long as they are 'our' dictators who will ensure no nationalization of resources will take place.

Just recently we put pressure on Chile NOT to redo the fascist constitution put in place under military dictate by our hand picked fascist Pinochet. This WaPo article makes it very clear that the pressure was due to our interest in stopping them from nationalizing the lithium we want our private corporations to mine for us. This was days after Biden's speech about needing to stop fascism because its a threat to democracy, but apparently a little fascism is OK

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/08/31/chile-constitution-vote-reject-rewrite/