you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

If there is but a single statement in there that I'd hesitate to defend, it might be the subjugation of women. Women are under attack in current politics, but I'd argue that it's the left and the democrats doing the attacking. Abortion rights and safe spaces are being eliminated, men are the new women and are apparently the better ones according to trans lobbies and sports councils, it's ridiculous. Abortion was never an issue when safe, legal and rare (rare being proportion to the vast overpopulation of the west thanks to massive over breeding and immigration from inferior nations).

[–]Alienhunter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you wish to ignore the constant resistance to Roe from the right that existed for decades and was largely dominated by women that narrative works but ignoring it is exactly the reason why it wasn't countered effectively.

The right doesn't view abortion as a women's rights issue it's a moral issue. It's similar to how the left currently views the LGBTQ issues as a moral crusade and ignore the medical and societal effects of it because basic human rights are considered to be violated and that is seen as more important than all else including other people's rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is true that there has been opposition from the right, especially from the holier than thou church folk. The right wing challenge abortion on moral grounds, but tend to have no problems with the death penalty. It kind of contradicts the whole 'all life is sacred' rhetoric.

[–]Alienhunter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This betrays a misunderstanding of their position. People who indeed hold the "all life is sacred" position do tend to oppose the death penalty as well for this reason, it also includes vegans and other assumably left wing positions that see that taking of any life as a moral wrong.

The right wing anti-abortion position is better summed up as "innocent human life is sacred" hardly controversial. In this view the death row inmate has been (hopefully) tried and found guilty through due process and as such the death is not seen as a moral outrage as the party is guilty. Whereas the unborn child has committed no crime and is therefore innocent and undeserving of death.

The real crux of the issue then revolves around at what point does one become a person. For the pro-abortion positions they consider the fetus being aborted to not be a person so the claim that the fetus has rights is rightly seen as rediculous. But to the anti-abortion position the fetus is not seen as fundamentally different than a baby, therefore a person and the position that it should be killed without probable cause is seen as rediculous.

The real thorny part that comes into play is that very few people hold extreme anti-abortion or pro-abortion positions in America.

Most people in the anti-abortion camp will agree that any kind of medically necessary abortion, either removing a fetus that is already dead or one whose birth will cause severe health risks to the mother, is perfectly justifiable, in the same logic that it's justifiable to kill when your own life is in danger.

Likewise most people on the pro-abortion position will also agree that it's not right to allow fully elective abortions of pregnancies that have proceeded into the third trimester as there is again little difference between a third trimester fetus and a baby in terms of development. Also the woman would have ample time and opportunity to seek an abortion before this point to exercise her right to choose whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy. (Admittingly, this is often used as a right wing talking point and I'll fully concede that any sane woman would not carry her pregnancy for 9 months only to decide to get an abortion on a whim).

The truly controversial part of this conversation comes down to the period from contraception to the second trimester on whether or not abortions should be allowed for elective reasons. Even then most people are largely in favor of allowing them very early in the pregnancy. Except for as you say the holier than thou church folk.

The issue with the debate is it's been ceded largely to the extremists on both sides for fundraising purposes and is used very much for this purpose. Politicians are less interested in securing women's rights than they are in securing their votes and donations. Otherwise they have had ample opportunities to counter right-wing opposition to Roe by pursuing federal abortion legislation that would have codified the position with something that would have appealed to the vast majority of Americans.

Painting this as a Women's issue is essentially painting it as a moral issue. Rather than a socio-economic issue. For the state of the discourse in the US however it's best described as a political tool rather than a serious position politicians are committed to furthering. The only women largely effected by Roe being reversed are poor women in red states, and while I'm not without empathy for how this uniquely impacts them, it's not without some understanding that this is something that they have agreed with, and in many cases an outcome that they wanted and voted towards.

To say it's a women's issue isn't wrong, but to say there is any solidarity amongst women on it is a misconception. If there is to be progress in Red states on this issue then typical talking points towards abortion need to be abandoned. Naturally focusing on programs that help prevent women from getting pregnant in the first place will see far more success in these areas than you'll see making arguments towards abortion in general.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The right wing anti-abortion position is better summed up as "innocent human life is sacred" hardly controversial.

Except quite a few of these people have supported US imperial warfare that has cost a whole lot of innocent lives. And don't give me any nonsense about saving the people, we don't deploy our army to save the people of the Congo from genocide, only in places that are of economic interest

[–]Alienhunter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes many people hold paradoxical viewpoints on different issues. It's because their underlying positions are often more influenced by propoganda than underlying personal conviction. It is not hard to convince someone that abortion is monstrous behavior while at the same time convincing them that bombing innocents abroad is a necessary evil.

As abortion has become an issue that many people treat as singular to their decision on who to vote for. Politicians running for red or blue districts have little choice in matter except to adopt the position that will grant them victory regardless of their own view on the issue. So naturally you will get some very paradoxical ideological profiles if you are naive enough to assume that politicians honestly follow the urgings of their conscience rather that the desire for power.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The right is unfortunately attacking them too now. The left has gone so crazy that the right wants to go full blown traditionalism to retaliate, and that includes mandating 1950s gender roles and banning women from voting again. All in the name of God of course, everything is good as long as it has God's name attached to it, right? The name of God is slandered in the nations because of you, as it is written. They're attacking men too.

I don't think the left is really attacking them, I think they just don't care and have disregarded them in favor of tucutes. They are 100% attacking and demonizing men though. To the point where everyone actually thinks all men are rapists and child abusers now.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's bizarre that the political polarization has gone to such extremes as to pressure those align themselves with a political side to be required to adhere to all the prompted policies and ideologies associated with them. As a centrist, I detest the idea that we cannot contest a topic if it has a specific political leaning.

Perhaps they have disregarded them, but it seems all too coordinated and bitter. I agree that men have been targeted, but in reputation destruction and through mistrust. We have not had safe spaces removed or sports invaded for example.