you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]SoCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The Washington Post cited unnamed people trying to exaggerate. I don't think we'll find anything about nuclear secrets in the warrant affidavit.

What? How can you possibly claim that that's "pretty clear"?

Because we already knew some about what was recovered. It was just lame stuff they already knew was there, when they visited in mid-July and looked at it. They told Trump to put a bigger padlock on it.

Trump has the warrant and list of times taken.

Trump had lobbied them to release the warrant. He backtracked on calling for the list of items to be released. I don't think he had or was permitted to release either without the court's approval, but neither are important and both are a misdirection, when you are familiar with these kinds of investigations.....

Only the affidavit for the warrant will have anything useful. The warrant its self will be vague and boring.

There will be two lists of items taken, the lame one given to Trump's attorney, after they snuck and did this with zero oversight, even hiding from the local police. That list will basically say "boxes of papers". It is reported that golf balls and a rain coat were also taken. There will be a usefully detailed list generated by the court days after the watergate-esk raid.

We have to remember this is just about getting old junk to the national archives for display and finishing sorting through boxes of papers to ensure no confidential stuff is left, which they knew was there and were okay with last month, when assessing its security.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because we already knew some about what was recovered. It was just lame stuff they already knew was there, when they visited in mid-July and looked at it.

The receipt had top secret documents, and SCI top secret documents. SCI (Sensitive compartmented information) is not supposed to be moved from the SCI facility, nor discussed outside it.

The same document shows that the search warrant was executed on suspicion of espionage, in addition to other crimes.

They told Trump to put a bigger padlock on it.

No they told him to put a lock on it. That bicycle lock was what he put there. It was in an unlocked room for a year.

Trump had lobbied them to release the warrant.

Trump was the only one who could have released the warrant. He didn't need to lobby. He just needed to release it.

I don't think he had or was permitted to release either without the court's approval, but neither are important and both are a misdirection, when you are familiar with these kinds of investigations.....

It's released now, as you can see from my link. He can release both without court's approval. The FBI and DOJ are the ones that need the courts approval to release it.

That list will basically say "boxes of papers".

Yes. But it includes their security classification, and the top secret boxes are of grave concern. The fact that there are SCI documents there is beyond "grave concern".

It is reported that golf balls and a rain coat were also taken.

Those aren't on the receipt.

We have to remember this is just about getting old junk to the national archives

Nope. Top secret documents, including Sensitive compartmented information.

[–]SoCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The receipt had top secret documents,

Hasn't that been corrected already to be "formerly" secret documents, which were declassified?

No they told him to put a lock on it.

Yes, they told him to secure it better, because they new there were boxers of documents not yet sifted through, likely with classified data. They were aware of it, okay with it, and instructed him to keep it there and further secure it.

We have to remember this is just about getting old junk to the national archives. We also have to remember that everyone knew and was okay with there being some possible classified documents here.

We have to remember that most of them were declassified and the media will pretend they were still classified. This is the opposite trick they used to minimize Hillary's much more serious issue (her's leaked to foreign governments, instead of collecting mold in a basement).

It is reported that golf balls and a rain coat were also taken.

Those aren't on the receipt.

Like I told you, the lame receipt just says a count of boxes.

Source about those findings: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/11/us/politics/trump-fbi-subpoena.html

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hasn't that been corrected already to be "formerly" secret documents, which were declassified?

Nope. Declassification is a process. These documents are top secret. It says on the receipt.

They were aware of it, okay with it, and instructed him to keep it there and further secure it.

They were not "okay with it." They pursued "less invasive means" of recovering them before going through the process of getting the warrant.

We have to remember this is just about getting old junk to the national archives.

Nope. Top secret including SCI documents recovered under a search warrant for evidence of crimes including espionage.

Like I told you, the lame receipt just says a count of boxes.

So it does. My bad. I assumed boxes of documents.

tbh, I still do. Not sure how a golf ball is evidence of espionage or destruction or falsification of records in federal investigations.

The coat could be evidence of someone having access to the top secret documents, I suppose. Was it a Russian's coat with 6 passports of different nationalities in the pockets?

[–]SoCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Nope. Declassification is a process. These documents are top secret. It says on the receipt.

Sorry, you are wrong about this. This was heavily reported after some information came out. Guessing based on a receipt seems a willful misdirection.

They were not "okay with it." They pursued "less invasive means" of recovering them before going through the process of getting the warrant.

No, you are wrong about this too. They visited in mid-Jully and told him to improve the lock.

Nope. Top secret including SCI documents recovered under a search warrant for evidence of crimes including espionage.

No, the warrant is just boiler plate looking for lost confidential documents. It can be deceptively characterized about all the scary things that could entail, but this was just the National Archive wanting their schwag to show in the museum......which is why they took the golf ball and rain coat...because this was NEVER about espionage or destruction of record. That was pure and super obvious media gaslighting. They take a normal thing, like not processing documents fast enough, for the national archive, and gasslight you with projected nefarious motive of concealing evidence to non-existent crimes. The ignorant masses will need to smarten up as this one trick of gaslighting seems to work every time.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sorry, you are wrong about this.

Nope. Lawfare has a detailed post about the declassification process, and the circumstances under which it is legal: The Classification Status of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Documents.

As per Richard Immerman “The procedure is far more formal,” said Immerman, who is now a historian at Temple University. “Documents must be declassified page by page; in fact, if TS/SCI [Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information] line by line. The document then is marked declassified (often sanitized) by the authorizing agent along with the date. Consequently, former President Trump’s claim is to me implausible.”

No, you are wrong about this too. They visited in mid-Jully and told him to improve the lock.

1) Nope, they told him to put a lock on it. That shitty little bicycle lock that you've seem pictures of was what was put on the room after that.

2) Asking him to put a lock on it, does not mean that they didn't also try to get the documents back without a search warrant. And in fact it is on the record that they did.

No, the warrant is just boiler plate looking for lost confidential documents.

Nope, that's not what a search warrant is. You need "probable cause" of a crime. In this case those three crimes mentioned on the warrant. Given that they are out of sequential order, you will suspect, as I do, that there was some toing and froing with the crimes to be investigated.

It can be deceptively characterized about all the scary things that could entail, but this was just the National Archive wanting their schwag to show in the museum......which is why they took the golf ball and rain coat...because this was NEVER about espionage or destruction of record.

All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, [...]

That's espionage.

[–]SoCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, some guy from Lawfare guessed at the situation, bemoaning the process to declassification, but didn't know if they were classified or not.

1) Nope, they told him to put a lock on it.

Yes, I told you that they knew he had boxes and boxes of documents left to sift through, after turning over more than a dozen boxes full earlier this year, and a few confidential things were probably in those leftovers. They wanted him to improve security, implying acceptance of the location of the material.

2) Asking him to put a lock on it, does not mean that they didn't also try to get the documents back without a search warrant.

Sure. They wanted someone to drop what they were doing and sift though boxes and boxes of papers. We know how long they take to redact paperwork in the government, taking years, but it seems the government expects unrealistic and much different ability, but only when the partisan attack legal-concern-troll is activated.

All physical documents and records constituting

You basically cited a law that said having illegal things is illegal. Espionage is a bit different, but frequently involves illegal evidences too.

So, to conclude, we are still talking about a non-illegal thing, that was known and accepted, and how we are being gaslit into looking at these normal and legal things as if they were some extreme nefarious thing, by making assumptions and projecting motivations. This one-trick-wonder of deception gets really old.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

but didn't know if they were classified or not.

But he makes clear that the label "classified" on the document is changed, and the change dated before a document's classification is changed. So we know when the receipt says "classified documents" then the documents were still classified at the time they were recovered during the execution of the search warrant.

They wanted him to improve security, implying acceptance of the location of the material.

It implies they didn't want people looking at the documents. It does not imply they accepted their non-return.

So, to conclude, we are still talking about a non-illegal thing ...

There were three sections of 18 USC cited on the warrant. Violations of all three are a crime.

Read 18 USC section 753 again, if you don't think it's espionage:https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

And none of them matter if the documents are classified or not.

So to conclude we are talking about illegal things, and the obvious bullshit about standing declassification orders makes no difference to that.

[–]SoCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No, a document's classification status does not rely on its marking.

Yes, declassification is a long process and they eventually get around to changing the marking, but it will always mention "classified" still. Stupid FBI seeing "classified" with a big "declassified" stamp over it, would be expected to still list it as (possibly) classified in their very vague and quickly done receipt. FBI don't bother confirming the classification status, that is for others to deal with. Considering the situation, if it a document appears to mention classified at all, the FBI are probably not permitted to look at the document any farther.

The President has sweeping declassification authority and can declassify documents at a whim, with a word, and that long declassification process is left to others. We'll probably be slow rolled the results of this after the midterm election so they can ham up the gaslighting campaign to influence the elections.

It does not imply they accepted their non-return.

They told him to improve security and left, implying they accepted that they would be suitable to stay there a bit longer. No one implied they wouldn't be returned eventually, if required.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The marking indicates the classification. It didn't really on it, but it is a necessary step.

The President has sweeping declassification authority and can declassify documents at a whim, with a word, and that long declassification process is left to others.

Not even close.

He has to got through the process that involves consultation with the department. In this case defense.

They told him to improve security and left, implying they accepted that they would be suitable to stay there a bit longer.

No. That only means they didn't have the search warrant.

No one implied they wouldn't be returned eventually, if required.

Where are you getting this from?

No. Less invasive means we're attempted. Trump refused. They got a search warrant, mentioning the crimes that they have probable cause for finding evidence of. They took what relevant documents they could find.